0rion

iTrader: (1)

I can't speak for anyone else but I had weld in UMI's put in and noticed a difference immediately. Much more solid. My car used to creak pulling into the driveway but stopped the same day I put the SFC's in. I highly recommend them regardless of what the experts say. Would you believe 3 people or 300?

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Don't any of you believe that just because 3 million people will make a claim it's gotta be true. That's where the Atkin's diet failed to prove. 3 million opinions can't prove physics and chemistry wrong by themselves. Elabortate skills and proper testing is what really can clear the efficacy of the SFC propaganda. Again, what is experienced is the placebo effect. Tests have taken 300 people sick with colds, fed them sugar pills, and they all have claimed to feel dramatic improvement, when it wasn't the pills, but their immune system and factors external to the pills. That is another example of the placebo effect.

Bear in mind that I still have all 3 of the SFC sets that I had previously installed. I still have yet to find a reason to reinstall any one of them. Oh, and another thing, where are those "dimples" pics that members have promised? I am still looking for them on mine, and mine is no spring chicken.

What I can tell you that my friends who are high power drag racers have had the problems that SFC's have solved. That's where that could be realised. Also convertibles have a somewhat small SFC installed, however they too could use an upgrade. T-tops? Sorry, mine is a t-top and the only way to stiffen the t-top area was to devise a replacement panel that substituted the t-top panels themselves.

The real question is what is one doing with the vehicle, and what has one done with the shocks, and are they properly vavled? 3 million testimonies themselves just don't convey the facts. If you like them, get them, but be aware that claims need serious reinforcement, not just "I feel better."

Also, be aware that at least 300 people at one point claimed "engine oil additives" with PTFE create a very slick lubrication to many metallic surfaces that they are applied to, which they do, depending on what surface and the respective surface temperature will yield with the friction involved. Despite all of their claims, they fail to note what effects occur when installed into an engines oil system.

0rion

iTrader: (1)

Whatever, I'm just telling you I noticed immediately the difference between having them and not having them. You can preach 'til you're blue in the face about what drag racers use what but on my particular car for whatever reason they made a night and day difference. There's no argument out there that'll convince me they didn't make a huge *** difference on my car.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

You might think whatever, however you asked whether 3 or 300 would be believable, and I can tell your statement is absolute placebo. I can understand how some can be narcissistic, however the thread is for everybody, not for just one person to be convinced. It's essentially a multi-member forum, so if you are going to say it, be prepared for someone to nullify you, and vice versa. Like many have stated, they say the same thing, but unless you or others like you can really support your findings, and not just make claims from your butt-o-meter, I'll refer to your statment as placebo effect.

0rion

iTrader: (1)

Are you related to TeamZr1?? Ok, you're right everyone else is wrong. Never mind my previous replies. I have since been shown the light and I guess the creaks in my car didn't stop. It must've been my hearing getting worse so I just don't hear them anymore. OH, I guess my car also didn't get any stiffer also. I was wrong. I guess where everyone in the world except you gets mislead is in thinking that if you take a unibody and weld big *** square metal tubes between the frame sections that it will in fact make the body more structurally sound. After reading what you've wrote here I've now come to understand that adding huge chunks of metal across the open spaces in the frame does nothing structurally for the car. Makes sense.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Again, what are the SFC's being used for. If you look at some of the AXers and RRer's out there, you'll see what I mean. A monocoque in itself isn't weak because it is a monocoque. Read the whole thread. There isn't an just open space across the unitbody because if there was, the car would be inoperable. I run motorsport bilsteins on my vehicle that are properly valved. Again read the whole thread.

You're arguing with simple claims is being called placebo, because you have deduced the whole SFC as being the miracle cure by just testimony alone. Be advised that I too had the same experience, until I upgraded shocks. If you can provide much more than just self-claims without being narcissistic, then you maybe can convince me otherwise to rest this thread. Until then, show more proof.

I can say that the 3rd Gen is much worse, however the 4th Gen F-body is much stiffer. AX and RR experience has proven this, not just I feel the seat of my pants. I am not mislead. When I added mine, the creaks didn't go away.

Read the whole thread and click the links. If you want me to finish, be more objective and less narcissistic.

Air

iTrader: (12)

Foxxton, You have submitted evidence to this and that about why SFC's and STB's are not any improvement to the 4g's handling..

I from experience have noticed what SFC's will do on a 2nd gen, but i havent done anything to my 4g yet

How do YOU suggest you improve the 4g's handling/stiffness.

You cannot sit there and honestly say it was designed perfectly as a handling car from the factory, because there are many many cars out there that can out handle it stock.

And i know you cant say its the stiffest car to ever come out of the factory either, so there has to be a way to improve upon that.

So saying a cage is not an option (DD car, like my interior)

SFC's weigh too much to present ANY improvement? From what im understanding you say is that they present such a minimal improvement to the amout of twist a 4g fbody can sustain when pushed is that the 30lb weight difference hurt your lap times...?

What about STB's.. Thats the message i got as well, is that the bar proved to be no help if not a disadvantage when AX or RR...

BTW my car is a 98 ta ws6 with stock suspension, but

I have SLP springs and Koni SA shocks in my garage.. So as far as spending $$$$ on some racing shocks and springs, thats not an option.


Maybe for you, with your high dollar setup already on your car, the SFC's and STB didnt help any, but for someone who is starting out or with a slightly less expensive setup they help. Kinda that 1-10 scale thing again?

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

When I had stock springs and Koni DA's they didn't make a difference either. Do a search and look at what AXer's and RRer's are doing with their SFC's. They use it for different reasons. For a daily driver, they won't make a difference in NVH. Want to solve NVH, go right to the bushings also. When they get old, they squeak. Go through the interior since some of it's panels sometimes come loose with age.

About the motorsport shocks, they're suppose to make the NVH much more worse. With sloppy spherical bearings they sure did. Did SFC's solve this problem? Not on mine. I then replaced them with some higher quality chrome plated bearings. No more NVH from them. Spending money on racing shocks doesn't solve the problem, it was the fact that I am using shocks that tend to really create lots of NVH, but they now don't. You don't need "motorsport" shocks to improve the NVH, because they can make them worse. the removal in the NVH is mostly in the quality of the overall shock, and it's proper valving iwth the springs being used. Koni SA's are by far the best shock for for an all around F-body.

My friends who drag race took ride in my car for the first time and they asked,"did you put SFC's in them?" I said no. They said it sure feels like it. I asked, "how do you know?" A blank reaction would be there every time, then I show them what I've done. Once they get beyond the burn and cut marks from installing and removing the several sets I have (still got them, just no longer installed), they ask what I did.

When I then took a ride in some of their daily drivers/drag racers, I wondered why their vehicle felt loose. They like using the stock shocks that are well worn so they can save some money to move up to QA1's. Since they are concentrating on drag racing, I advised them to install SFCs, since they will be doing high rpm burnouts with sticky shoes. At my 401rwhp/378rwtq (SAE corrected), it still isn't making detectable vibrations.

Again they're not useless, just being misconstrued for solving problems that many percieve is wrong with the vehicle. If you have them, keep them if you want.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

As far as the STB, those might help with HP drag racing, however the 4th Gen front end is already triangulated through the front end the negate an STB with Daily driving, AX and RR. A Strut tower brace is especially useful with a Foxbody or a 3rd Gen since they use MacPherson strut front end with an underbuilt chassis. The 4th Gen F-bodies not only have a much more rigid design (not perfect by any means, or any chassis these days, some better than others), but their front end suspensions use a double wishbone short/long arm suspension design that places more of the loads on the spindle and less of the load on the shock tower mounts.

Also, bear in mind that if you simply replace the stabiliser bars with larger diameter ones (not too big and they must be a balanced combination), the body sway dramatically decreases. Once I did this and removed the STB, I couldn't tell a difference. This was making turns on both street and track. I installed and reinstalled several times, and like those who AX and RR also have mentioned, they aren't needed, except to rest your hand when leaning over the engine bay, and dressing up an engine bay as well.

Again, if you want it, get it, but be advised about the effects of solving results than solving the root of the problem.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

The mods are probably going to lock the thread once I do this, however these links are posted again as a reminder, since there are those who don't like to search.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=398983&page=1
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...+panel+dimples
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...+panel+dimples
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ame+connectors
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/398983-subframe-connectors-2pt-vs-3pt.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417461
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/431250-newbie-suspension.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/429520-sfc-worth.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...93#post4047593

My vote for SFC's if you must have them? UMI. Never bought from them, however Ryan seems to stand by his product, though I doubt any SFC will fail by itself, but rather fail if they are mounted incorrectly, which is hard to do. He's also a dedicated sponsor at another f-body website (personally my favourite f-body forum).

CULATR

iTrader: (96)

hey, ok im not going against anyone on here nor choosing a side but i have a stock 94z hardtop a4 car and on the drivers quarter i have the flex dimple effect going on.....explain how i could get them on a car like this, when its never been raced or dragged ? I'm not trying to be smart but how did i get them? i do however plan to tear it down and go past the 400 hp mark and yea probably a rollcage, but for right now it's just chillin for a time being......
1 question is a car 265hp or more, do subframes signifigantly help or not?

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Not to be a wise ***, but I have RRed and AXed mine for quite a long time, and I have yet to see where these "dimples" are, and once again I have beaten this car up on many road courses, with 401 rwhp. Also, I have never repainted this vehicle at all.

If you are talking about those very hard to see ones on the quarter panel near the hatch lid opening, SFC's won't prevent those since practically all of the off the shelf SFC's are mounted several feet away from those areas. In order to prevent them, you'd practically have to reinforce the whole rear panel with some sort of "underskeleton of tubular steel", not practical at all.

Before anybody says "then SFC's are the most practical method", look at where they mount and how far away the "dimples" are, then notice that like the firewall, the quarter panels are thin sheet metal that will bend easily, unless again reinforced with some serious tubular steel that runs all the way from the more rigid areas of the chassis. If anything, a roll cage would help many times more than SFC's.

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

The only reason I put on SFC's was to try to remedy my dimple situation. I have a faint crease on the driver's side above the wheel well (only seen in certain light) and what at first appears to be a door ding on the wheel well edge on the passenger side. But looking closely, you can see the crease continues up the quarter panel, though faint. I'm going to have a dent doctor take my creases out and see if they return or not with the SFC's on. If they do, I may ditch my SFC's. They have made my car's ride noticeably harsher.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Not to encourage you to DIY the "dent and dimple" removal, however if you're proficient with dent removal, all it takes is careful action with a dent hammer and a dent dolly. Just a suggestion if you care to save some time and serious money.

As far as the ride being harsher, I don't know how old your shocks are and how they're valved, however I can tell you that if you desire to revalve or replace with proper valving, then you could elminate a significant amount of the harshness. I noticed that on mine as well when I had them installed, however once I installed Koni DA's (no longer have them, however I now have shocks that are supposed to be much more harsh and they aren't) the harshness went away when I set up a good valving to the springs I was using. Another suggestion, since the removal may take quite a bit of effort.

BTW, I also notice that you have aftermarket rear LCA's and those have been known to cause significant harshness to ride, even if both ends are poly. Have you checked those whether those are a possible cause to the NVH, even if it's only partial contributor?

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

I've got a local guy that I use to take out dings and stuff - he uses the paintless method with rods, etc. He's cheap and good - when I can find him. I ordered a set of HD's from Sam Strano last week and am eager to get them on ASAP. Before the SFC's, the impact harshness of my car would bother me sometimes (especially with the stiff sidewall KDWS), but after, it was over the top. The LCA's were on the car when I bought it so I don't have any base line to compare them to. I have thought about changing the body side bushings to rubber, but I'll do the shocks and see how it feels and go from there.

Radcat

iTrader: (1)

Just had some BMR weld ins put in last night. Car feels so much better. It doesn't feel like a boat when I take a corner and it feels like I have more control over bumps. The car doesn't squeak anymore either!

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Placebo effect.

If you were to upgrade to properly valved shocks then remove the SFC's you'll be surprised.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Yep, placebo.

Foxtron, look how long this thread is! You have given up a large portion of your life attempting to save these people. Give it up. Let them add dead weight to their cars.

[speaking quietly] When you end up racing these people, it will give you a weight advantage and your car will be as stiff as theirs! Now excuise me while I go grind the welds out to remove them from my car. I've got a full cage to install! [/speaking quietly]

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

And like you also mentioned, let them purchase some of the weight and in return to stimulate the economy.

BTW, I like the speaking quietly notes because it's funny how many of these LS1tech readers read too deep into "suggestive language" instead of reading in verbatim.

But yes, largely the mods have had no problem with this because people just don't perform effective searches so I decided just to start to get some to think what SFC's are really for, and not what they're just imagined to do.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

OUCH! I know that you have discussed this over at FRRAX, but you're actually going to do what I did too? I know that you know what you're doing, it's just that I noticed that you're getting ready to ORR, and I certainly haven't done that with my colleague in his testing. I'll keep a watch over there.

BTW, regardless of this thread's life, it's time for me to retire from here and seek political asylum to enter FRRAX.