ProjectCamaro

iTrader: (26)

I'm about to buy some UMI subframe connectors from a sponser but I can't decide if I should spend the extra money on the 3pt. I don't auto-x, or drag race really, I just really enjoy taking the car out on the great Wisconsin backroads really. Basicly what I want is a great handling car but still able to drive it everyday and I'm not worried about adding weight for drag racing.
Thanks

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Unless you have a car with one heck of a loose chassis, subframe connectors do NOTHING for handling. If it's handling you want to improve, then go right to the source, the shocks, the springs, the stabiliser bars, or some of the other "non-placebo" suspension items, but if anything, subframe connectors should be reserved for the last thing for how you plan to operate the vehicle.

While it is true that a stiff chassis is important to suspension performance, the suspension is really the key player in handling and shock absorption. Any road shocks that aren't absorbed by the shock absorbers will obviously be transmitted to the chassis, then the vibrations will be detected, but no matter how much more you stiffen the chassis, poor shocks will always impede your performance potential.

ProjectCamaro

iTrader: (26)

Ok I understand where you're coming from. I already have shocks and springs and I've already picked out my sway bars so that's covered. Basicly I just want the car to feel solid because FBodies don't have a good feel stock but that can fix.
Looks like everyone's voting for 3pt's so far.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

have you only picked out your sway bars, or have you installed them? do your shock valvings match their spring rates? If you like to spend money on a placebo mod, go ahead. Most of this "loose feeling" is probably from worn out bushings, end links, and not the monocoque itself. Wornout bushings are notorious for creating lots of squeeks and rattles. Also, have you checked your interior to see if it actually has any loose trim? Bear in mind that when even the slightest error in interior moulding fitting on any vehicle will create wierd noises. Most of the noises on turns are really from worn out suspension components.

Many on this forum always suggest SFC's as a mandatory mod, however, unless you have really stressed out the car a lot (RR, AX, or Drag racing) they're not necessary, and even so, I had my 3-points installed for about 32K from about ~58K to about ~90K, and the only difference that was detected in handling and NVH reduction was from the shocks themselves. Mine is a 1999 Z28 that was previously wrecked on the left front, but was repaired properly and some other f body owners who rode in my vehicle thought I installed SFC's when i didn't have them installed at the time. My vehicle is @ about 120K, and it has a little more than a 3rd of it's life from AX and RR practice. It's T-top equipped and has no NVH, except road and tire noise.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Foxxton is right on...

You are trying to make the car feel more solid, and he's telling you that SFC's help do that but by way of fixing the result, not the root of the problem. Proper shocks/springs/bars make the car feel like a slot car with nary a SFC to be found.

To add to his point, I have a customer who installed SFC's with a not great set of shocks (KYB AGX's) and pretty good lowering springs. Noted a big difference in the way the car drove. Later he put on Koni's in place of the AGX's and we did coil-overs but with very similar rates to the previous springs. He then cut off the SFC's (welded 3 points) and noticed NO DIFFERENCE with or without them. That tells you that while the SFC's helped with the crappy shocks, they were not helping wtih the good shocks in place.

If you are going to bother, you might as well go big as you can.... And yes, we do sell SFC's even though I'm telling you that you have other things going on. I just want you to do what's best, not what's easiest.

I don't know where you are with the other parts, but if you have improperly chosen products for shocks/springs/bars then you will always have sub-par performance regardless of what else you add.

You are looking to fix a feel... have the car drive better, right? The suspension is a much more important part of that than is the chassis. That wouldn't be the case if the frame was broken or something, but it's not. And 4th gen's are so much stronger than older cars were (and designed knowing they'd be convertibles too). The chassis is not the problem.

ProjectCamaro

iTrader: (26)

Thanks Sam, I've heard from people who've talked to you and I've heard about your knowledge and how nice you are so I'll listen to you.

What I want is a really good daily driver that's just fun. No racing of any kind. I was talking to a friend who installed suspension tech.'s and he was telling me how the rear end would swing out on him. I'm looking at the UMI 3-pt subframe connectors and the BMR sway bars right now. I have a good set of springs but am unsure of which struts and shocks to go with.

spy2520

iTrader: (3)

who the hell is voting? i wish all the people who voted for 3 pt SFCs could explain why they are better than 2 pts for a non AX, non RR, not exactly a drag car. well i guess if SFCs arent aby help it doesnt matter if you get 2 pt or 3 pt designs.

skatinjay27

ya i thought that too when i voted and then got the results of the poll. 3pt arent necisary unless you've got like 600+ hp ,but then again they dont help n-e-ways and its not like the cars a sub-frame car

UMI Performance

iTrader: (77)

We always recommend running the 3-Point design if you running or plan on running a tunnel brace mounted torque arm like pictured below. This helps reduce the stress and tension from the floor board area and allows the pressure to placed on the subframe connector it self. Hope that helps!

Ryan

ProjectCamaro

iTrader: (26)

So are you saying I should get the 2pt since I don't plan on running an aftermarket torque arm.

Corupted

I have a 2 point and love it. This is my 2nd F=body and both have had the 2 pt SFCs.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Your friend's case is classis case of too much rear bar vs. front bar. 32/21 is the same kind of F/R ratio as a 35/25 your friend installed and found too loose. Which is why we recommend and choose to build 35/22 bars, to avoid the issue he found. But, that's got nothing to do with SFC's. That said you want 32/21-ish sized bars, we have those as well (and for less money than BMR too), but I'd not recommend that.

"Good" this or that is relative. What makes anything "good" Quality is one, bu the bigger issue is how well it works in *YOUR* application. Classic case, the ST bars are very nice parts and I'd consider them excellent in terms of quality, however not the best idea on your car...

Back to the SFC's. I never said they are bad things, or that you absolutely shouldn't run them. They are not bad at all beyone adding weight to the car. However, why run them if you don't need them/can accomplish what you want *AND* address other problems at the same time with other parts.

*IF* you want to run them, why do it half-assed and "settle" for 2 points? If you are that hell-bent on needing the car to be stiffer why wouldn't you use 3 points? Doesn't make sense.

ProjectCamaro

iTrader: (26)

Thank you for your help, I will probably be giving you a call so we can talk over the phone to help me decide what to buy.
Thanks again

skatinjay27

Damn you are all up in that dudes *** dont get me wrong sam knows his **** but damn man back off your coming off a lil

ProjectCamaro

iTrader: (26)

What's your problem?!

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Not sure that whole exchange was about....

Anyway, ProjectCamaro, I'll be here.

ProjectCamaro

iTrader: (26)

Got me, I have no idea where that comment came from.
Thanks, I'll give you call in the next couple of weeks to help me decide what to go with and to help me get a nice winter project.

So his problem is the bar size itself but the rear bar size as compared to the front bar size?
I've been searching online for awhile but it's hard to find real information, I get a lot of opinons and for the most part they all rule each other out.
Thanks a lot!

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

His problem is more the size of the rear bar because he has a big front, but it's teamed with too large a rear bar. *IF* he had a 32 front/25 rear, then it'd be not just the size, but also the front/rear relationship as well. Again, I can better explain in person.

As for the second part of the statement. The 'net is FULL of opinions, and that's fine. The trouble is you don't know who they are coming from, if they have any basis in reality or pracitcal application. It's easy to type something that sounds good, much harder to prove you point. For all you know I could be crazy and just talk a good game. And years ago when I first started on these 4th gen boards I had to prove my worth. That's why I'm so big on a phone call. The best way to find out information is to talk about when you pick up on tone, inflection, and frankly cover a lot more information per minute than one can type. Even my own website lacks a lot of content. Not intentionally, but in a way it's good because folks have to call from time to time and find out what they thought they wanted isn't always what they needed.

The internet is great for a LOT of things. Trying to setup your car by the net is a poor idea.

[__--MUD--__]

Stock 01 WS6 suspendion w/ 3 point installed. Night and day difference. Really tightened up the car alot, dont feel any of the rolling or flexing.

Only bitch about UMI is i bought the 3 point sub frame connectors in begenning of august. August-September-October.....******* just charged my debit card last week. Got wacked w/ damn $120 NSF fee. They waited for almost 3 months then charged me. I though they already changed me in august, but it was something else. So those damn things cost me $370. Figures....

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Um.... SFC's do NOTHING to control body roll. That's the job of springs and bars. Also, you have stock shocks, don't you? As I've said MANY times, SFC's help cars with stock shocks because impacts that should be damped out by the shocks aren't. Those get into the body and SFC's help the end result. But woudln't it be best to not let those impacts get through in the first place? I think so.

As for UMI. I don't know them, but I don't see anything wrong with what they did, or that your account being overdrawn is their fault. I'd say you need to do a better job balancing your account. If they had charged you and took 3 months for the parts you'd be just as pissed. They, I imagine, we trying to help you out by not charging you for parts that weren't available at the time. I've been on both sides. Been yelled at for charging for parts that weren't going to ship until later, AND for overdrawing accounts by waiting as they did. Well, I or they can't see you account. You give a CC number for payment, and that's all we know. FWIW.