BBBBadSS

iTrader: (16)

Can a STB hurt performance on the strip? Like maybe affect weight transfer and hurt traction?

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Anything that adds weight to the car with no other function will hurt performance. Look how low the loads are on the spindle arm. Most of the force goes throught the LCA, not the UCA. Also note how much stronger the LCA is than the UCA. There are minimal loads at the top.

98charlize

i have a three point on my z28 and it made a big differance in the corners. corners that i could only take at 20 mph, i could now take at 40mph. this was with sfc's too.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Please listen to the guys on this board who have much experience with AX and RR, and less from placebo effects.

Let the real suspension parts do their work, such as a proper shock/spring/stabiliser bar combination, and not some mere tubular parts that have contrived advertisements and testimonies to what they can supposedly improve. Again, these parts have their place, just not all of what the consensus purports them to do.

I was one of those who started with SFC's and a STB because, "It's an absolute must and should be done ASAP!" Yeah, I thought my SOTP was detecting a difference, however, track numbers don't lie. After installing those items alone, it was still the inconsistent hit or miss times, and handling was still not so predictable. AFA the NVH, no change from the previous times without SFC's and STB. I even upgraded to a 3-point STB, still no change from the 2 point STB.

Then came a combination of newer parts that were similar to the 1LE setup (looked at what was included in the 2001-2002 1LE and ordered the items separately). After installing the parts, and configuring the shocks, a vast improvement was not only felt by SOTP, but also my track times were much more consistent. AFA the STB, I removed that item, and guess what? No change in SOTP with the Koni DA's and the 32/19 stabiliser bar combination. Why, because I let the a set of quality shocks perform like they supposed to in the first place. Even then I still messed around with installing, uninstalling, and reinstalling several times. Also, no change in distance between the shock towers, even while driving (used an instrument that mounted like a STB, but was shaped like a hood shock with probes to measure the distance changes and tower angles during cornering. No changes!).

Even between the stock setup, the "1LE" setup, and what I have now, I have reinstalled and uninstalled all of the SFC's and STB's on not only mine, but also my colleague's test subject (2000 T/A test vehicle "stripped") for several times. Quite a lot to do, but when you can test not only one make and one design at one time, but at least two or more makes of at least two different designs at several intervals, then the results can be much more credible.

BJM

iTrader: (1)

I believe you frequent www.frrax.com On that board, similar questions have been asked and the answers are not so clear cut. In this thread and this thread, people generally seem to agree with the lack of handling improvement, but there is more than one person claiming NVH improvements for various reasons. You seem very unhappy with people making differing conclusions from your own.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

I could care less about contrived opinions or what ever anyone else considers what or how I type, so stick to your own opinions and I'll stick to mine. This "happiness" obeservation is a result of reading into my writing style and not reading the pertinent subject matter as it is.

Now, what I am getting at is what many seem to "notice" is totally seperate from what may actually is being measured. That's what seperates simplified placebo effects from critical testing. As many of the frrax people are concerned they do this more often, since they are critical to actually discovering whether an item works they way it's advertised or not. Plain and simple.

Contrary to what you state about my answer being not so clear cut, your last statement needs more than just judging others so this thread can be objective.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

And to explain why I requested to read more of what the AX and RRer's mention when it comes to things like the STB? Because when it comes to parts, they too have spent much time and money to tune their vehicle's performance using tried and true methods as opposed to simplistic observations, also they know what to prepare for, what to do during their performance, and what to learn from when they're finished. Simply put, handling is their game and my game as well.

Here's two examples of what I'm talking about:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....3&postcount=29
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....09&postcount=7

Yes, these two examples don't quite mention STB, however they mention the fact that they do concentrate on those items that are of great importance to the 4th Gen F-body's handling (and braking to some extent). They both had to work with several combinations, while attempting to retain certain controls and constants. That's testing that is much more substantial to what is trying to be gained. Anyone who reads my post as it is should easily comprehend what I am explaining.

Here's another example I'd like to mention, several Camaros competing against each other on a tight AX cone course.

http://www.1le.net/docs/tittermary.jpg

For those who are predominantly "daily drivers" and have never AXed, this is much harder than what most will do in daily driving, and guess what? The 1LE came out on top, and from the factory the 1LE has no STB. The only thing that this car had which was not stock were the tyres. The LG Camaro came in a close 2nd, and most likely had an STB as that was part of his past advertised "ZR28" package. The body roll that was described for the 1LE was really down to the spring rate and stabiliser bar combo, which allows slighty more body roll than the LG ZR28.

If there was way too much tower flex during manoeuvering, then I would hope that they would mention how the hood flexed. They don't, plus the owner mentioned that they didn't have to worry about tearing it up because he doubted they could drive the vehicle harder than he did.

Another thing to mention is how the 1LE was actually the lightest of all of the vehicles, yet the driver's couldn't differentiate that from the others by the feel of handling. By noting that and looking at other factors, they have eliminated much of any possible placebo effect.

Another factor that can change feel of handling would be the front end suspension alignment. A few degrees difference in caster, camber, and/or toe can have dramatic effects on ease of steering and/or optimal cornering grip.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I want a cross-drilled and slotted STB ... for cooling ...

chupr0kabra

iTrader: (10)

Cross drill your brake lines first. You get more out of that mod.


-Mike

Cal

iTrader: (1)

If a STB is a good thing, why not make it even better, and get one fabbed from solid steel? To hell with this flimsy tubular stuff, lets mean business! They could be made out of solid chromolly steel like a BMR swaybar. I think these would be a big hit at the track . . . I like to see as much weight as possible added to my competitors cars! Thank you STB promoters!

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

haha...very funny guys,

I'm only trying to be objective, not start flame wars or festivities of laughter.

_JB_

iTrader: (33)

I bought a Hotchkis STB for my car only because I got a good deal on it. After looking/handling it, I don't think it can stop any flex. I can't say anything about how my car feels with it, as my car is still in storage.

93TAWicked1

iTrader: (28)

Well I'm going to go against all of you and probably get laughed at. ONLY because the original poster from the user name is sporting a convertible, I'd recommend buying a cheap 70 shipped UMI bar. On a coupe its worthless, on the vert it did seem to help with the slight "cowl shake" That is just my experience the car has never been wrecked and has only 70k easy wife driven mile on it...until I sold my Z06

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Not going to laugh or yell and not trying to get any last word, however read carefully. If you haven't upgraded to proper shock/spring combo, then the cowl shake is coming from the poor damping from the shocks along with the loose trim resulting from the "tolerance lottery" caused by the "drunken monkeys."

I have done this "test" on eight (yes, 8 of them) of my friends' 4th gen verts. I basically attached my STB's on their's thinking that they had much worse problems, and they supposedly didn't feel a thing. I drove around in their vehicles and still didn't feel a thing. They let me AX them, didn't notice any improvement in times with or without. A few elected to upgrade their shocks (bilstein HD's with stock springs) and those who did felt a slight improvement. Reattached the STB, did the exact same tests as previous (weather luckily permitted), no noticable SOTP changes with or without STB. I had to completely repeat this like crazy in order to make sure that I surely wasn't feeling a thing. While there is a difference in design with the centre of converts vs. hardtops/t-tops, the front's are exactly the same from the factory.

Now as far as the designs of the STB's I own (no longer installed) and have seen advertised, there aren't any that will attach to all four attachment points on the shock towers. I would like to think that if a manufacturer was to go to the trouble of making an STB for the 4th Gen (or any vehicle for the matter), wouldn't they go a little further to manufacture ones that attach to all four shock tower bolts?

BJM

iTrader: (1)

I knew there were two of us!

If changing your shocks and springs greatly reduces cowl shake, great. A problem has been greatly improved.

Or...

If putting on a STB also has a similar effect, great. The STB will not affect handling, just feel. Using it for NVH is in fact a valid use.

The shocks and springs helped by making existing parts work better. The STB did it by adding stiffness. Both are good, so do both. Don't want a STB? No one will mind.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, not enough to back that up. Again, these must be placebo effects because you can't only trust your buttocks with only a single install.

EDIT: To those with concerns outside of purchasing/selling an item or to those who I have no familiarity, and those who aren't moderators who have political objections with my postings, DON'T PM me.

Zepher

I beleive they make a difference on my generation of car, but due to my intake, I can't install the one I have.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely, I used to own a 3rd Gen, and OMG! The cowl shake was so bad, you could see it (hood flexing, mass vibrations going over bumps, windows popping loose as I make hard turns). Heck, even with SFC's along with the STB, it still was like loose chassis hell. But I still liked certain aspects of it over the 4th Gen, but that's another thread altogethor.

BJM

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, can't accept your lack of acceptance.

Both do something on their own, but the two can't be added together? Nonsense.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Again, for my findings, you haven't gone far enough. Plain and simple. Plus take your vehicle to an AX course and say something, then I could reconsider, but otherwise simple words and simple placebo effects are just that. Any true scientist/engineer will know that as well. Plus, don't PM me anymore, I don't want your sarcasm, nor your politics.

Each persons acceptance is their business. You are now attempting to antogonise an argument against me. I will post what I find and reasearch, that's it. It's each member's buisness what they post. Anybody can take it or leave it. I don't need last words, fame or fortune. It's that simple.