View Poll Results: What brand?
UMI
252
39.81%
BMR
176
27.80%
Spohn
84
13.27%
Hotchkis
11
1.74%
Other
110
17.38%
Voters: 633. You may not vote on this poll
Best Lower Control Arms?
07-13-2006, 10:14 PM
#61
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I live in the chicago suburbs and a 2nd car is not an option.. have no place to park it. With snow tires F cars are not bad at all. Also they clear the roads soo quickly and often I rarely even get into any real snow... but salt, sand, water, and dirt.. thats the major concern. I figured the Rod ends would not be such a great idea to run in the elements but I've never read any good answers on it until now.
I want good all round handling and decent 1/4 mile fun. Not too worried about noise and such more worried aobut longevity when used in the elements. Pressing in the 1LE's into my LCA's may be the way to go. Eleiminate some wheel hop and keep the handling too and not have to worry about the elements killing the rod ends. Thanks for the input!
I want good all round handling and decent 1/4 mile fun. Not too worried about noise and such more worried aobut longevity when used in the elements. Pressing in the 1LE's into my LCA's may be the way to go. Eleiminate some wheel hop and keep the handling too and not have to worry about the elements killing the rod ends. Thanks for the input!
Last edited by sixvi6-camaro; 07-13-2006 at 10:23 PM.
07-20-2006, 06:46 AM
#65
Originally Posted by niteriyder
where can the edlebrock LCAs w/spherical rbushing ends be purchased?
Our double adjustable LCA's are of outstanding value and engineered using high-end QA1 XM teflon-lined series components. On-car adjustability is simple. Material used is 4130 normalized chrome-moly and tig-welded.
At our sale price-points, our LCA's over 50.00 less expensive then competitors using similar designs. Purchasing LCA's and PHR's as a set is even better! We can provide either offset as well as standard bushings at the customer’s request. Our components are in stock and ship within 24hrs ...many times same day up until 12pm EST.
07-20-2006, 07:00 AM
#66
Originally Posted by 96SweetTA
This is not really a good poll considering there are very few of us who have tried all the different kinds of LCA's. We are all going to be partial and biased towards the ones we are running right now.
As for me, I got a good deal on a set of Metco Billet LCA's with relo brackets and they have been great. No noise, and I felt an immediate diffence in grip with no change in ride comfort.
As for me, I got a good deal on a set of Metco Billet LCA's with relo brackets and they have been great. No noise, and I felt an immediate diffence in grip with no change in ride comfort.
I've had
BMR poly/poly
BMR rod/rod
G2 poly/rod
UMI rod/rod
homemade aluminum rod/rod
I put the most miles on the G2s. No issues and they were still working great when I sold the car 6 months ago.
UMI parts went immediately on a customer's road racing car and we have had ZERO issues, Nice pieces. I highly recommend them.
I made the Aluminum LCAs over a year ago and installed them on my road racing car. No issues.
BMR were the only units I broke.
07-20-2006, 08:35 AM
#67
I agree with Mitch. The poll really isn't appropriate. I suppose it relates to customer’s experiences with the manufactures components they purchased, but this doesn't correlate to product comparisons.
Most designs at this point are virtually identical due to copied designs…I see someone defending a manufactures product over another when they are essentially identical in materials used. About the only room for differences would be the welds themselves. Face it, a LCA/PHR is a simple design, there is little room for improvement or differences.
…probably some manufactures making them really have no expertise in design manufacturing, They just copy it and do so since they know it works since it’s been tried and true. I’ll go as far as stating many probably have no engineering background or understanding of material science…
BMR has been around for many years, they have made changes over the years and made improvements by listening to their customers and seeing area’s for improvement. I believe they do have their products tuned rather well at this point. Mitch may have had older LCA’s whereas the material used near the bushings was too thin and fatigue cracked. This was changed in latter designs (now of course to where you see most of the other manufactures making them this way).
You see product development and improvements over time. Years ago, many did not use higher-end QA1 rod ends to keep costs down. It was the public who directed the manufacture to expect only higher end components…of course; this brought the costs up to the consumer…now you only see manufactures using the high-end parts.
My feeling is this; sure I’d like to see everyone purchase our products… Purchase the products from the company that you like and want to support. I don’t believe you’d go wrong with purchasing most LCA/PHR from any of the manufactures on this site. I’d state the largest benefit of our components over others is purely cost considering the design intent. We back our products up 100%. We are not marking our suspension products up as high as others. This is a benefit to the consumer.
Most designs at this point are virtually identical due to copied designs…I see someone defending a manufactures product over another when they are essentially identical in materials used. About the only room for differences would be the welds themselves. Face it, a LCA/PHR is a simple design, there is little room for improvement or differences.
…probably some manufactures making them really have no expertise in design manufacturing, They just copy it and do so since they know it works since it’s been tried and true. I’ll go as far as stating many probably have no engineering background or understanding of material science…
BMR has been around for many years, they have made changes over the years and made improvements by listening to their customers and seeing area’s for improvement. I believe they do have their products tuned rather well at this point. Mitch may have had older LCA’s whereas the material used near the bushings was too thin and fatigue cracked. This was changed in latter designs (now of course to where you see most of the other manufactures making them this way).
You see product development and improvements over time. Years ago, many did not use higher-end QA1 rod ends to keep costs down. It was the public who directed the manufacture to expect only higher end components…of course; this brought the costs up to the consumer…now you only see manufactures using the high-end parts.
My feeling is this; sure I’d like to see everyone purchase our products… Purchase the products from the company that you like and want to support. I don’t believe you’d go wrong with purchasing most LCA/PHR from any of the manufactures on this site. I’d state the largest benefit of our components over others is purely cost considering the design intent. We back our products up 100%. We are not marking our suspension products up as high as others. This is a benefit to the consumer.
07-20-2006, 02:43 PM
#68
Originally Posted by SJM Manufacturing Inc
Most designs at this point are virtually identical due to copied designs…I see someone defending a manufactures product over another when they are essentially identical in materials used.
…probably some manufactures making them really have no expertise in design manufacturing
…probably some manufactures making them really have no expertise in design manufacturing
Originally Posted by SJM Manufacturing Inc
BMR has been around for many years, they have made changes over the years and made improvements by listening to their customers and seeing area’s for improvement. I believe they do have their products tuned rather well at this point. Mitch may have had older LCA’s
It WAS several years ago and I certainly hope that Brett changed his design and fired the welder he had working for him.
Like anything else, once burned ...
I just can't take a chance bailing off into T1 at Texas World Speedway at 130 mph. Not only do I have to take my well being into account, there are 40 other drivers on track with me.
A broken suspension part is about as bad as it can get ...
Originally Posted by SJM Manufacturing Inc
We back our products up 100%. We are not marking our suspension products up as high as others. This is a benefit to the consumer.
I've had the priviledge of working with Ryan at UMI and run his parts on a customer's car. They are working great for our application (road racing big, heavy pigs, called F-Bodys). Ryan has been VERY receptive to criticism concerning product development.
Any manufacturer should realize listening to criticism is a way to improve. Putting parts in the hands of those that can really test them and be willing to give honest feedback makes the R&D a LOT cheaper than having a rash component failures.
It's just smart business.
07-21-2006, 02:04 PM
#70
Originally Posted by camscam02
what does everybody reccomend?
Single? double? or non adjustable?
I was told double is the best for drag so you can easily change the angles but i was wondering what every body else thinks! i need to order some soon!
Single? double? or non adjustable?
I was told double is the best for drag so you can easily change the angles but i was wondering what every body else thinks! i need to order some soon!
You can decrease deflection from the actual control arm by changing the geometry of the material. …Using a soft poly bushing or rubber bushing, the suspension will still deflect quite a bit. This can certainly be felt in heavy maneuvering where the rear will not feel as solid (bushings are deforming under stress).
On the other hand, using double adjustable rod-ends, you will transfer more noise through the body due to lack of bushings.
You need to consider what you are using the setup for. If you use the car everyday driving to work and it is your only vehicle…rod-ended setups are probably not for you. It all depends on how you want to optimize performance and what your tolerance level is.
You can’t have the best of both worlds, if you want the best performance, rod-end setups are best. If you want the best comfort level, stock is best. Anything else is a compromise in both situations
…use this analogy, an all season tire really is just ok in the summer and winter but NOT optimized for summer AND winter. If you drive your car in the summer only, then you’ll benefit from using a summer tire which it is optimized for. Use this tire in the winter, and it won’t perform anything like a winter tire does.
Folks discuss worrying about rod-end wear; this really should be of little concern and NOT the reason why I mention not to use a rod-ended setup on a primary vehicle. Face it, a rod end at ~30.00 and replacing one yearly is such a small cost when considering you spend 50.00-100.00 just to fill your gas tank weekly (if you drive it as a primary car). The reason why I state rod-ends may not be the best choice is primarily from a level of comfort and hearing additional road noise.
To me personally, the car is a performance car, I optimize it for performance, I’d never use all season tires, or even a winter tire. I would also never use poly or rubber bushings either, but I don’t use the car as my primary vehicle.
07-22-2006, 06:45 PM
#71
so whats the verdict? rod/rod gives best performance, stock gives best comfort, is rod/poly worth touching or is it just OK like an all-season tire?
lets set the scenario as a "spirited" driver who has a tolerance for noise but is not an AX or RR by any means. also car is DD so might have a chance of seeing snow or salt but $30 per rod-end doesnt seem too bad...
lets set the scenario as a "spirited" driver who has a tolerance for noise but is not an AX or RR by any means. also car is DD so might have a chance of seeing snow or salt but $30 per rod-end doesnt seem too bad...
07-23-2006, 06:35 PM
#73
What is the reason why you want to change your suspension components in the first place? Consider what your goals are, then choose the setup that meets your needs. Poly setups will help lower deflection of components BUT it dampens suspension movement quite a bit, not necessarily a good thing.
Just because you replace the stock suspension arm with a component that deflects less due to the material used doesn't always mean better performance when the actual bushings still deforms quite a bit. I'm considering LCA/PHR components at this point... Energy is displaced by bushing deformation and friction. You will have better reaction and control with rod-ended parts period.
You need to find your comfort level. If you want the best control, either put up with additional road noise with rod-ended components or consider else...any other setup will not perform and react as well. Customers who use rod-ended setups solely feel a night and day difference over poly or rubber....of course; they can hear road noise and drivetrain noise to a greater extent.
Keep in mind; do not discount using rod-ended setups for the sole reason that you are concerned about replacing a rod end bushing every so often. If you are worrying about replacing such an inexpensive component, certainly just driving the car paying 3.00+/gallon should be of more concern since you'll spend allot more money on gas!
Don't use rod ended setups if you don't want to increase road noise and you want your car to feel like the typical daily driver car. Just like an exhaust, some folks hate driving in a car that has a loud exhaust, some like it. The only way to find your comfort level is by YOU trying them yourself. Having someone explain to you that they felt it was as “quiet as stock” or “super loud” is like them getting a cavity filled and trying to tell you “it didn’t hurt at all” or another stating for the same thing “it hurt like hell”.
There really is no need to dissect these components too much, these parts are very inexpensive and can easily be swapped out to something else if you don't like them. If you didn't like them, change them and sell them.
Just because you replace the stock suspension arm with a component that deflects less due to the material used doesn't always mean better performance when the actual bushings still deforms quite a bit. I'm considering LCA/PHR components at this point... Energy is displaced by bushing deformation and friction. You will have better reaction and control with rod-ended parts period.
You need to find your comfort level. If you want the best control, either put up with additional road noise with rod-ended components or consider else...any other setup will not perform and react as well. Customers who use rod-ended setups solely feel a night and day difference over poly or rubber....of course; they can hear road noise and drivetrain noise to a greater extent.
Keep in mind; do not discount using rod-ended setups for the sole reason that you are concerned about replacing a rod end bushing every so often. If you are worrying about replacing such an inexpensive component, certainly just driving the car paying 3.00+/gallon should be of more concern since you'll spend allot more money on gas!
Don't use rod ended setups if you don't want to increase road noise and you want your car to feel like the typical daily driver car. Just like an exhaust, some folks hate driving in a car that has a loud exhaust, some like it. The only way to find your comfort level is by YOU trying them yourself. Having someone explain to you that they felt it was as “quiet as stock” or “super loud” is like them getting a cavity filled and trying to tell you “it didn’t hurt at all” or another stating for the same thing “it hurt like hell”.
There really is no need to dissect these components too much, these parts are very inexpensive and can easily be swapped out to something else if you don't like them. If you didn't like them, change them and sell them.
07-23-2006, 07:11 PM
#74
Regarding aluminum suspension components, (I can't state on this particular one mentioned), but I will make an assumption that is the same wall thickness and diameter that the typical aluminum setups use...it's a simple calculation regarding differences.
From the calculations that I have done when considering viable solutions, they will actually deflect greater then the typical steel counterpart setups.
Some other negative issues:
1) Aluminum does not have a fatigue limit. Predicting failure is more difficult.
2) Due to the added milled sharp edged ends you see so you can put a wrench on it, you are increasing the likelihood of stress risers further increasing the chance of failure in this area.
3) This certainly would be a drag only setup which needs inspected quite often for cracks...unfortunately; you'll not be able to see infinitely small cracks.
Typically aluminum components can be lighter, but thicker/larger diameter material must be utilized to equate to similar characteristics of steel. We can easily calculate how heavy these arms are, but since we are looking at such a short small component, weight differences are very small (at least in our case). Our LCA’s are 2lbs 11oz/LCA…
From the calculations that I have done when considering viable solutions, they will actually deflect greater then the typical steel counterpart setups.
Some other negative issues:
1) Aluminum does not have a fatigue limit. Predicting failure is more difficult.
2) Due to the added milled sharp edged ends you see so you can put a wrench on it, you are increasing the likelihood of stress risers further increasing the chance of failure in this area.
3) This certainly would be a drag only setup which needs inspected quite often for cracks...unfortunately; you'll not be able to see infinitely small cracks.
Typically aluminum components can be lighter, but thicker/larger diameter material must be utilized to equate to similar characteristics of steel. We can easily calculate how heavy these arms are, but since we are looking at such a short small component, weight differences are very small (at least in our case). Our LCA’s are 2lbs 11oz/LCA…
07-26-2006, 07:00 AM
#76
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Nods, this is my daily driver, and cirrently have dual rod lca's. The noise form eis unacceptable. It sounds like there is something loose under the car rattling everytime I go over the slightest bump, and if I go over a stretch of uneven pavement.. i expect my trunk to pop off 
If it were merely a track/ax car then with all the exhaust noise and so on I prolly wouldnt noticeor mind the noise. But when you are driving for a length of time, having to turn the radio up more.. or raise your voice to carry on a conversation etc gets annoying.
Next week I am hoping to get the dual poly ones put on. Will let ya know how much quieter the rattles are after that
If it were merely a track/ax car then with all the exhaust noise and so on I prolly wouldnt noticeor mind the noise. But when you are driving for a length of time, having to turn the radio up more.. or raise your voice to carry on a conversation etc gets annoying.
Next week I am hoping to get the dual poly ones put on. Will let ya know how much quieter the rattles are after that
07-26-2006, 09:42 AM
#78
Originally Posted by Dip Stick
Nods, this is my daily driver, and cirrently have dual rod lca's. The noise form eis unacceptable. It sounds like there is something loose under the car rattling everytime I go over the slightest bump, and if I go over a stretch of uneven pavement.. i expect my trunk to pop off
I have zero interior in my race car, using aurora rod ends and I don't hear what you are describing
07-26-2006, 09:49 AM
#79
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I have to agree with mitch AFA having a quality rod end designed with only the maximum misalingment needed, especially since I have not only rod ended LCA's and PHB, but a combined amount of 13 spherical bearing parts on my daily driver vehicle, and those who have rode in my vehicle and unfamiliar with what's underneath don't hear that type of rattling. This is after 3 years of a combination of lots of commuting, some heavy AX, driving over rough pavement near work, and having to drive near or on the beach to park on the sand very close to the water. It also rains quite a bit during the winter.
07-26-2006, 10:21 AM
#80
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Good, quality rod ends just don't make that kind of noise.
I have zero interior in my race car, using aurora rod ends and I don't hear what you are describing
I have zero interior in my race car, using aurora rod ends and I don't hear what you are describing
Once again, I agree with mitch. Sounds like you may have damaged rod-ends or something else.
Adding one additional comment, asside from the rod end being worn, it could also be an issue of some manufactures suggesting to use a 12mm stock bolt and using a 1/2" internal diameter spacer on the rod end.
If the spacer is made from aluminum tubing, it will more then likely be 1/2" inside diameter. If the spacer is made from aluminum tubing and has an insert such which looks like copper or brass, it will have a 1/2" internal diameter. Using a 1/2" internal diameter spacer with a stock 12mm bolt introduces additional noise since the rod end will have end-play and move around on the bolt resulting in noise.