First suspension mod?
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: DE
First suspension mod? I recently got a totally stock 2000 WS6 T/A and im ready to start with the mods. Originally I was going to start with the typical starter air/exhaust mods but I figure it might be best to start with suspension work first and even though the WS6 has improved handling, it can always be much better.
So my question is, whats a good starting suspension mod? tower brace? panhard rod? LCAs? etc etc.. theres quite alot of them and I plan to complete just about all that I can eventually but im on a limited budget and can only afford to do a little at a time so any suggestions?
Also any company specifically recommended over another? I was thinking hotchkis based on things ive read about them.
Thanks
<small>[ July 01, 2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: pulszar ]</small>
So my question is, whats a good starting suspension mod? tower brace? panhard rod? LCAs? etc etc.. theres quite alot of them and I plan to complete just about all that I can eventually but im on a limited budget and can only afford to do a little at a time so any suggestions?
Also any company specifically recommended over another? I was thinking hotchkis based on things ive read about them.
Thanks
<small>[ July 01, 2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: pulszar ]</small>
Re: First suspension mod? How are you going to use the car? Street/Strip, autoX/RR or spirited street driving? In either catagory you can't go wrong getting tires that are better suited to the type of driving you'll be doing the most.
Strut tower braces are a waste of money IMO. You may want a set of sub frame connecters if you don't have a hardtop. LCA's are good if you have a 6spd. Torque arm will be good until you throw alot more power to the ground.
LAter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Strut tower braces are a waste of money IMO. You may want a set of sub frame connecters if you don't have a hardtop. LCA's are good if you have a 6spd. Torque arm will be good until you throw alot more power to the ground.
LAter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: DE
Re: First suspension mod? A little more background would prolly help for my question, lol
Its an M6 w/ t-tops and my main use for the car would be daily driven (mostly aggresively <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> ) with once in awhile trips to the track. I plan to put alot into this car over time both power wise and suspension wise but ya gotta start somewhere.
SFCs would be helpful for the fact its got t-tops and i planned on doing that anyway, ive spent alot of time reading and reseaching tons of components, im just not quite sure what the best area would be to start with (if any).
I am planning on a tire upgrade not too far away, im just still debating if I want to put 315s in the back or upgrade to 18s all around w/285 - 295's out back (??)
Being thats a little out of my league right now is why I was thinking about starting small and working my way up there.
Its an M6 w/ t-tops and my main use for the car would be daily driven (mostly aggresively <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> ) with once in awhile trips to the track. I plan to put alot into this car over time both power wise and suspension wise but ya gotta start somewhere.
SFCs would be helpful for the fact its got t-tops and i planned on doing that anyway, ive spent alot of time reading and reseaching tons of components, im just not quite sure what the best area would be to start with (if any).
I am planning on a tire upgrade not too far away, im just still debating if I want to put 315s in the back or upgrade to 18s all around w/285 - 295's out back (??)
Being thats a little out of my league right now is why I was thinking about starting small and working my way up there.
Re: First suspension mod? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by pulszar:
<strong>
with once in awhile trips to the track
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which track? Drag, AX or RR? Suspension setups vary widely ... there isn't one stop shopping for this.
What's your experience level at any of these venues?
My suggestion is to pick a vendor that has a race designed, engineered and proven set-up and work at getting a package.
Not all suspension components are built alike. Some components just won't work with others very well. I've spent WAY too much money learning this fact. I purchased suspension compents based upon price as opposed to function. Don't make the same mistakes I did.
And while it's not a popular opinion, I'll agree with Bob ... an STB is a cosmetic mod, unless you are on R compound tires and taking the car to it's limit. Then there might be some benefit ... might be ...
<strong>
with once in awhile trips to the track
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which track? Drag, AX or RR? Suspension setups vary widely ... there isn't one stop shopping for this.
What's your experience level at any of these venues?
My suggestion is to pick a vendor that has a race designed, engineered and proven set-up and work at getting a package.
Not all suspension components are built alike. Some components just won't work with others very well. I've spent WAY too much money learning this fact. I purchased suspension compents based upon price as opposed to function. Don't make the same mistakes I did.
And while it's not a popular opinion, I'll agree with Bob ... an STB is a cosmetic mod, unless you are on R compound tires and taking the car to it's limit. Then there might be some benefit ... might be ...
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: DE
Re: First suspension mod? thats good to know, then ill worry about the stb last most likely..
track as in drag strip, i dont plan on autox. like i said its a daily driven car that I would like to handle very well and have the ability to corner like a demon. All things considered I would have to say overall street handling is my main concern.
I went back and read alot more posts from here and Im thinking along the lines of SFC or LCA + panhard rod for first suspension mods. I know that SFC arent exactly a suspension/handling mod but the car is 2 years old, drives quietly, and I would like to keep it that way before and major chassis flex sets in. For everyday driving I do tend to push it a bit.
track as in drag strip, i dont plan on autox. like i said its a daily driven car that I would like to handle very well and have the ability to corner like a demon. All things considered I would have to say overall street handling is my main concern.
I went back and read alot more posts from here and Im thinking along the lines of SFC or LCA + panhard rod for first suspension mods. I know that SFC arent exactly a suspension/handling mod but the car is 2 years old, drives quietly, and I would like to keep it that way before and major chassis flex sets in. For everyday driving I do tend to push it a bit.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
From: everywhere
Re: First suspension mod? Okay, heres what you need.
Get a BMR trac pak, you can find good deals form vendors. here's what's included
SFC's
LCA's
TA
APHR
and you will also need relocation brackets for your LCA's.
This will get your power to the ground and I noticed that you said soemthing about 18's <img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" /> , well they are REALLY hard to launch with and you will notice wheel hop without some sort of LCA's, I would say that the LCA's are most important. Wheel hop is the #1 cause of rear end breakage. The BMR trac pak should run about 7xx but is ell worth it.
its true that the STB is not needed.
I also used to own chrome 00 vette rims and wheel hop sucked but the LCA's made all the difference in the world. When/if you do choose to get 18's, I would guess that you are more of lan appearance person rather than a race person becasue you will get no traction with 18's compared to 16-17's with nittos. I do recommend nittos for daily driven cars. I get roughly 15k miles from mine which is a little over a year and trust me, I dont drive easy.
Get a BMR trac pak, you can find good deals form vendors. here's what's included
SFC's
LCA's
TA
APHR
and you will also need relocation brackets for your LCA's.
This will get your power to the ground and I noticed that you said soemthing about 18's <img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" /> , well they are REALLY hard to launch with and you will notice wheel hop without some sort of LCA's, I would say that the LCA's are most important. Wheel hop is the #1 cause of rear end breakage. The BMR trac pak should run about 7xx but is ell worth it.
its true that the STB is not needed.
I also used to own chrome 00 vette rims and wheel hop sucked but the LCA's made all the difference in the world. When/if you do choose to get 18's, I would guess that you are more of lan appearance person rather than a race person becasue you will get no traction with 18's compared to 16-17's with nittos. I do recommend nittos for daily driven cars. I get roughly 15k miles from mine which is a little over a year and trust me, I dont drive easy.
Trending Topics
On The Tree
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Re: First suspension mod? The Global West SFCs for the coupe are nice, with 2" tubes that tuck up out of the way.
Your choice of tire is more important than the width; get 18's and put the drag tires on your OEM rims. I got the big wide look with 18x10.5" wheels all around -- no problems, even with a 2" drop.
Before you spend your money on LCAs, read this:
http://www.geocities.com/acarnut99/bushings.htm
--
DaveH
Your choice of tire is more important than the width; get 18's and put the drag tires on your OEM rims. I got the big wide look with 18x10.5" wheels all around -- no problems, even with a 2" drop.
Before you spend your money on LCAs, read this:
http://www.geocities.com/acarnut99/bushings.htm
--
DaveH
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: DE
Re: First suspension mod? acarnut: that was an interesting write up on your website.. but im still a little unclear of something.. if you buy aftermarket suspension components from whomever (G2, global west, hotchkis, BMR, etc etc) then do you put GM replacement rubber bushings on as opposed to the poly? or do they come with the option to not have poly bushings? I might have missed something there. and on your last quote you said "before you spend your money on LCAs..." did you mean before i spend money on LCAs by a certain manufacturer?
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: DE
Re: First suspension mod? thanks for the suggestions, Ive seen those package deals and they look pretty good, just a matter of savin up the coin. That was why i was going to go with a piece or 2 at a time but I could manage to do it all at once, I guess it would probably be easier that way as far as installation goes.
How do the BMR SFCs hold up? I heard they werent that strong and saw G2s recommended quite a bit, im not really sure which components I can mix and I would love to do this right on the first try, lol.
As far as the 18s go, I was originally gonna do 285s up front and 315s out back on 17x9 (front) and 17x11 (back) but I thought that 18s might handle better, i mean i like the big wide look but im more concerned about how its going to affect performance.. I do want traction and I do plan on taking my car to the strip eventually but since this is my everyday car I need it to appeal to both worlds as close as possible, and considering id spend more time driving in everyday situations (although with a bit of aggression) I still would like a solid performance at the track.
I was also concerned about the 315s because i was thinking about going for the sportline spring kit and havent heard too many good stories about lowered cars and 315 tires, but if theres a way to make it work im down. Tire wise I was thinking either Michelin pilots (had them on my previous formula and loved em) or nitto 555s (i know the 555Rs are drag radials but I need something that can handle bad weather too)
more suggestions welcome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
How do the BMR SFCs hold up? I heard they werent that strong and saw G2s recommended quite a bit, im not really sure which components I can mix and I would love to do this right on the first try, lol.
As far as the 18s go, I was originally gonna do 285s up front and 315s out back on 17x9 (front) and 17x11 (back) but I thought that 18s might handle better, i mean i like the big wide look but im more concerned about how its going to affect performance.. I do want traction and I do plan on taking my car to the strip eventually but since this is my everyday car I need it to appeal to both worlds as close as possible, and considering id spend more time driving in everyday situations (although with a bit of aggression) I still would like a solid performance at the track.
I was also concerned about the 315s because i was thinking about going for the sportline spring kit and havent heard too many good stories about lowered cars and 315 tires, but if theres a way to make it work im down. Tire wise I was thinking either Michelin pilots (had them on my previous formula and loved em) or nitto 555s (i know the 555Rs are drag radials but I need something that can handle bad weather too)
more suggestions welcome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
From: everywhere
Re: First suspension mod? There is no need for the wider tire in the back for traction. Nittos hold up just fine "better than a 315 tire" and will not need any fabrication.
The bmr SFC are not weak by any means. There are a few people that preffer others over BMR but that is simply because BMR hangs a little bit which I personally think looks cool! My car is lowered and have no issues with it. I run 16x8 inch rims with nittos and I can get 1.8 60's with my 6 speed which is good. I dont think that will be happening with the 315's. I had some of those on a buddies car and they looked awesome but he had wheel hop due to no suspension mods. I would keep your stockers and run nittos on them. Hell, I think the y2k bette rims are cool too, just get 17's all around due to weight. Remember these 18's are a lot heavier than your 15-16 inch rims and thats another thing that hurts performance. Lower your car witht he 17's and you will love your handling. Also, if you do just get your things one at a time, remember to go LCA's first, follow by reloc brackets, but if you lower it, I would recommend the APHR first. BMR is the cheapest way and they are VERY good quality pieces.
The bmr SFC are not weak by any means. There are a few people that preffer others over BMR but that is simply because BMR hangs a little bit which I personally think looks cool! My car is lowered and have no issues with it. I run 16x8 inch rims with nittos and I can get 1.8 60's with my 6 speed which is good. I dont think that will be happening with the 315's. I had some of those on a buddies car and they looked awesome but he had wheel hop due to no suspension mods. I would keep your stockers and run nittos on them. Hell, I think the y2k bette rims are cool too, just get 17's all around due to weight. Remember these 18's are a lot heavier than your 15-16 inch rims and thats another thing that hurts performance. Lower your car witht he 17's and you will love your handling. Also, if you do just get your things one at a time, remember to go LCA's first, follow by reloc brackets, but if you lower it, I would recommend the APHR first. BMR is the cheapest way and they are VERY good quality pieces.
On The Tree
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Re: First suspension mod? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by pulszar:
<strong>...you said "before you spend your money on LCAs..." did you mean before i spend money on LCAs by a certain manufacturer?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before you buy LCAs of a certain type.
LCAs need to be able to rotate on their mounting points. Poly bushings don't allow this, despite all the sales pitches and testimonials you'll find out there. Even BMR's poly/rubber combo has shown symptoms of bind (as loss of cornering grip). I don't dispute their quality, service, support, etc, but BMR is a good example of a company that knocks off parts for our cars without understanding how the suspension works - but you wouldn't think that when you see all the (for lack of better words) BMR groupies out there.
Like I've said before, testimonials have sold a lot of Slick 50. Seen that listed in a sig recently?
<strong>...you said "before you spend your money on LCAs..." did you mean before i spend money on LCAs by a certain manufacturer?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before you buy LCAs of a certain type.
LCAs need to be able to rotate on their mounting points. Poly bushings don't allow this, despite all the sales pitches and testimonials you'll find out there. Even BMR's poly/rubber combo has shown symptoms of bind (as loss of cornering grip). I don't dispute their quality, service, support, etc, but BMR is a good example of a company that knocks off parts for our cars without understanding how the suspension works - but you wouldn't think that when you see all the (for lack of better words) BMR groupies out there.
Like I've said before, testimonials have sold a lot of Slick 50. Seen that listed in a sig recently?
Re: First suspension mod? It's an unpopular stand to say that BMR products are knock-offs, built with very little design/functionality engineering.
They bolt up easily, have nice looking welds and are priced cheap.
But do they "help" or just "change"?
I've been down this road and have bought 2 sets of LCAs for my car. First BMR poly/poly, then had my eyes opened by a very kind offer from Lou Gigliotti who offered me a money-back guarantee if G2 poly/rod LCAs didn't help eliminate my hop and bind (car pushed horribly while cornering).
I didn't take him up on his offer ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
This was the beginning of my limited understanding of chassis dynamics.
One thing it did prove to me, though. When dealing with chassis dynamics, one needs to find a vendor who has a race designed, engineered and proven PACKAGE. I am walking and talking proof that some parts just don't work well together. I've wasted a LOT of Ben Franklins learning that lesson.
Lou Gigliotti won several World Challenge Championships in a 4th Gen Camaro, with the G2 components he makes available. I don't think any other manufacturer can make that claim.
Finally, many components out there will make your car sound like it dragging around a box of rocks after installing their components. Mine is as quiet as it was off the showroom floor with G2 torque arm, LCAs and springs
They bolt up easily, have nice looking welds and are priced cheap.
But do they "help" or just "change"?
I've been down this road and have bought 2 sets of LCAs for my car. First BMR poly/poly, then had my eyes opened by a very kind offer from Lou Gigliotti who offered me a money-back guarantee if G2 poly/rod LCAs didn't help eliminate my hop and bind (car pushed horribly while cornering).
I didn't take him up on his offer ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
This was the beginning of my limited understanding of chassis dynamics.
One thing it did prove to me, though. When dealing with chassis dynamics, one needs to find a vendor who has a race designed, engineered and proven PACKAGE. I am walking and talking proof that some parts just don't work well together. I've wasted a LOT of Ben Franklins learning that lesson.
Lou Gigliotti won several World Challenge Championships in a 4th Gen Camaro, with the G2 components he makes available. I don't think any other manufacturer can make that claim.
Finally, many components out there will make your car sound like it dragging around a box of rocks after installing their components. Mine is as quiet as it was off the showroom floor with G2 torque arm, LCAs and springs
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: DE
Re: First suspension mod? That was a pretty good testimony, I think i'll give LGmotorsports a ring when I go to put some money into my suspension soon, I really can't afford any mistakes with bad components and I've heard quite a few people speak highly of this Lou guy.
Thanks alot for all the advice everyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Thanks alot for all the advice everyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
On The Tree
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Re: First suspension mod? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mitchntx:
<strong>It's an unpopular stand to say that BMR products are knock-offs, built with very little design/functionality engineering.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unpopular but true. The FAQ on BMR's site spells it out pretty clear to anyone familiar with the proper function of each component.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>
Lou Gigliotti won several World Challenge Championships in a 4th Gen Camaro, with the G2 components he makes available. I don't think any other manufacturer can make that claim.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But you won't find his poly/poly LCAs on his race cars. Having corresponded with him, I know he agrees that poly/poly LCAs are a problem - "snap oversteer" was the term he used - but his web site where he's selling this stuff is short on details. Buyer beware.
<strong>It's an unpopular stand to say that BMR products are knock-offs, built with very little design/functionality engineering.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unpopular but true. The FAQ on BMR's site spells it out pretty clear to anyone familiar with the proper function of each component.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>
Lou Gigliotti won several World Challenge Championships in a 4th Gen Camaro, with the G2 components he makes available. I don't think any other manufacturer can make that claim.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But you won't find his poly/poly LCAs on his race cars. Having corresponded with him, I know he agrees that poly/poly LCAs are a problem - "snap oversteer" was the term he used - but his web site where he's selling this stuff is short on details. Buyer beware.
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
From: Marietta, Georgia
Re: First suspension mod? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by acarnut:
<strong>But you won't find his poly/poly LCAs on his race cars. Having corresponded with him, I know he agrees that poly/poly LCAs are a problem - "snap oversteer" was the term he used - but his web site where he's selling this stuff is short on details. Buyer beware.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm looking at upgrading my supension parts as well with pretty much the exat same goals in mind as pulszar here.
So what you are saying is that if you upgrade your suspension with LCA, a torque arm, etc., you should stick with the stock rubber bushings?
Chris
<strong>But you won't find his poly/poly LCAs on his race cars. Having corresponded with him, I know he agrees that poly/poly LCAs are a problem - "snap oversteer" was the term he used - but his web site where he's selling this stuff is short on details. Buyer beware.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm looking at upgrading my supension parts as well with pretty much the exat same goals in mind as pulszar here.
So what you are saying is that if you upgrade your suspension with LCA, a torque arm, etc., you should stick with the stock rubber bushings?
Chris
On The Tree
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Re: First suspension mod? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by LS1Z28Chris:
<strong>So what you are saying is that if you upgrade your suspension with LCA, a torque arm, etc., you should stick with the stock rubber bushings? Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I certainly didn't say that. Simply put, polyurethane is not a good bushing material. Just because every sells the stuff, and lots of people vouch for it, it's all hype. Don't fall for it. Hence the Slick-50 references.
That leaves stock bushings, factory 1LE, and aftermarket rod end equipped arms. As mentioned, rod ends vary in quality, longevity, and noise. for the street, the best bang for the buck is 1LE, hands down. Real race cars use rod ends, replaced regularly.
DaveH
<strong>So what you are saying is that if you upgrade your suspension with LCA, a torque arm, etc., you should stick with the stock rubber bushings? Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I certainly didn't say that. Simply put, polyurethane is not a good bushing material. Just because every sells the stuff, and lots of people vouch for it, it's all hype. Don't fall for it. Hence the Slick-50 references.
That leaves stock bushings, factory 1LE, and aftermarket rod end equipped arms. As mentioned, rod ends vary in quality, longevity, and noise. for the street, the best bang for the buck is 1LE, hands down. Real race cars use rod ends, replaced regularly.
DaveH
