AIR RIDES are IN!!!
10-20-2007, 12:31 PM
#30
Another factor that no one has mentioned is that if you use conventional eye mounts you can change the motion ratio (1.7 to 1) to alter the spring rate and shock damping. Moving the top mount toward or away from the car and the opposite direction to the lower mount should do the trick while keeping the air bellows from rubbing anything. Moving it closer to 1 to 1 will increase the spring rate and make all the shock valvings firmer as there is simply less leverage on the lower A-arm.
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-20-2007 at 12:44 PM.
10-20-2007, 02:34 PM
#31
The trouble is, you can have it high and hard, or low and soft. Combinations that are a bit backward.
Raising the car is done by adding pressure, so the "springs" are more firm, which is how they hold the car up. But, lower it to get a good stance and CG height, and you have to let air out and soften them up.
They claim you can adjust firmness and ride height, and you can. Just not how one would want or expect.
Raising the car is done by adding pressure, so the "springs" are more firm, which is how they hold the car up. But, lower it to get a good stance and CG height, and you have to let air out and soften them up.
They claim you can adjust firmness and ride height, and you can. Just not how one would want or expect.
Yes, as you lower the car the spring rate will drop some, but these systems are not designed for more than one actual ride height. It's not like you'll have one tall height for everyday driving and a lowered height for the race track. What you do is set the car up for a single ride height and get the suspension aligned. Then you can lower it when your parked or raise it for an obstacle you drive over at low speed.
So the spring rate when lowered or when jacked up is completely irrelevant. It's only the spring rate at your set ride height that actually matters.
As your driving and the suspension compresses, the spring rate will go up much like a progressive spring which is good as it helps prevent bottoming out. The one downside is that it can be difficult to dial in the shock valving.
Sam, do these AirOver Shocks look like they use the same shocks as well? They say:
It features our 9 position damping shock, durable and proven 2B6 bag, and your choice of mounting options. They carry a 7.0" maximum diameter and can be mounted upside if needed for clearance.
These are the one's I'm interested in as they are half the price of the Air Rides.
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-20-2007 at 02:45 PM.
10-22-2007, 01:20 PM
#32
Amit, I was looking at the pics of your air bags. Do they have enough clearance all around them so that it doesn't rub anything?
Are they a 6" diameter bag?
If so and the ride is a bit too soft for performance driving then I will postulate that a 5" bag would be the way to go if they made them. The smaller diameter will require higher pressure as well as be firmer in general, plus it will give extra clearance around the bags.
Are they a 6" diameter bag?
If so and the ride is a bit too soft for performance driving then I will postulate that a 5" bag would be the way to go if they made them. The smaller diameter will require higher pressure as well as be firmer in general, plus it will give extra clearance around the bags.
10-22-2007, 09:34 PM
#33
The spring rate change from suspension actuation would occur no matter what the initial rest rate/pressure (and thereby "ride" height) was. In other words, when you pick your pre-set ride height (whcih is all I was ever talking about, not continuous adjustment), you're stuck with a given initial spring rate/air pressure. The lower that initial pressure is, the lower it will be when the suspension is fully compressed, so the less force it will take to compress it. Which basically means what I said - when you shoot for that combo killer stance/lower CG for better handling, you need to increase the spring rate. But air shocks work backwards from that. (and I think most people want everyone else to see their car with the killer stance, and while moving, not just in the driveway or parking lot) And then of course you touched on the other issue of rate variability and shock valving, couple that with unknown rates (from start to finish), and unknown shock quality and they seem like a bad idea for anything other than laying frame at a car show.
They seem the only solution for my needs. Well, I have another idea in the thread I posted, but I'm still working on it.
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-31-2007 at 07:09 AM.
10-22-2007, 11:29 PM
#34
Why doesn't anyone know the springrates on these shock assemblies?
If we can get the weight of a stock frontend, divide by 2 multiply that by 1.7 we'd know the weight applied to the factory springs.
Then we get someone with the air spring assembly like Amit and have him add pressure until we get about the right ride height (lets say a 1.5" drop for example). Measure how much the shock is compressed and then tell Air Ride to take the same assembly and add the same pressure and compress it to the same height and then compress it one inch exactly and we'd know the damn spring rate. It's not that hard. I could probably build a rig to measure it myself if I had one of those shocks. I did that with the rear springs to learn how to maniplate the rates.
Maybe I should buy one and do the testing myself. As long as I could return it afterward and get my money back (never installed) it might be worth it.
Now if we take the shock out of the equation, we could alter the springrate by changing the motion ratio (the 1.7 to 1 part). Another way to change the spring rate would be to manipulate the volume of air used. Less air volume equals a stiffer rate. This is why I suggested a 5" bag. Cars that use air cylinders often ride rough due to the small amount of air volume the cylinders can hold. The cylinders are typically only 4" in diameter. To make them ride smoother they increase the air volume through the use of accumulators. It's kind of like a remore reservoir you see on shocks. It basically just holds extra air. Vice/versa, A smaller air volume must equal a firmer ride, hence more springrate.
Does that make sense?
Now the hard part, if the 2 companies only offer these shocks in 6" diameter, how can we decrease the air volume without lowering the pressure? We'd probably need to add something inside the bags that can displace the air without being so stiff as it would damage or get damaged inside the bags when the car is lowered by lowering the pressure.
If we could take the airbag ends off, we might could add a rubber o-ring about 3/4" thick and 5" in diameter and stuff it in the wide part of the bags. That way it would be away from the center portion and all the shock rod stuff. I don't know.
Any thoughts on this guys?
We'd still have those unknown shocks, though. Uggg.
What about these?
Now here's something interesting. A universal air bag designed to slip over a shock or strut. Looks to be about $170ea.
Universal Air (UVAIR) Aero Sport Single Convoluted Air Bag
Designed to Slip Over Your Factory / Performance Strut
I wonder if these will fit over a Koni shock?
barelylegalfabrication dot com/uvaerosportdetailspage.htm
I bet they will have a higher springrate than the other bag/shock assemblies, due to their smaller air volume, plus we might be able to run our good Koni shocks with them.
As a side note I guess I should point out that several years ago I had a Caprice and I added those red airbag helper springs, the ones that fit inside the coils, anyway, not only did they increase the springrate which made the car handle better, but they also improved the ride quality. It was a win win situation so I'm not ready to give up on the air spring idea for the F-body.
If we can get the weight of a stock frontend, divide by 2 multiply that by 1.7 we'd know the weight applied to the factory springs.
Then we get someone with the air spring assembly like Amit and have him add pressure until we get about the right ride height (lets say a 1.5" drop for example). Measure how much the shock is compressed and then tell Air Ride to take the same assembly and add the same pressure and compress it to the same height and then compress it one inch exactly and we'd know the damn spring rate. It's not that hard. I could probably build a rig to measure it myself if I had one of those shocks. I did that with the rear springs to learn how to maniplate the rates.
Maybe I should buy one and do the testing myself. As long as I could return it afterward and get my money back (never installed) it might be worth it.
Now if we take the shock out of the equation, we could alter the springrate by changing the motion ratio (the 1.7 to 1 part). Another way to change the spring rate would be to manipulate the volume of air used. Less air volume equals a stiffer rate. This is why I suggested a 5" bag. Cars that use air cylinders often ride rough due to the small amount of air volume the cylinders can hold. The cylinders are typically only 4" in diameter. To make them ride smoother they increase the air volume through the use of accumulators. It's kind of like a remore reservoir you see on shocks. It basically just holds extra air. Vice/versa, A smaller air volume must equal a firmer ride, hence more springrate.
Does that make sense?
Now the hard part, if the 2 companies only offer these shocks in 6" diameter, how can we decrease the air volume without lowering the pressure? We'd probably need to add something inside the bags that can displace the air without being so stiff as it would damage or get damaged inside the bags when the car is lowered by lowering the pressure.
If we could take the airbag ends off, we might could add a rubber o-ring about 3/4" thick and 5" in diameter and stuff it in the wide part of the bags. That way it would be away from the center portion and all the shock rod stuff. I don't know.
Any thoughts on this guys?
We'd still have those unknown shocks, though. Uggg.
What about these?
Now here's something interesting. A universal air bag designed to slip over a shock or strut. Looks to be about $170ea.
Universal Air (UVAIR) Aero Sport Single Convoluted Air Bag
Designed to Slip Over Your Factory / Performance Strut
I wonder if these will fit over a Koni shock?
barelylegalfabrication dot com/uvaerosportdetailspage.htm
I bet they will have a higher springrate than the other bag/shock assemblies, due to their smaller air volume, plus we might be able to run our good Koni shocks with them.
As a side note I guess I should point out that several years ago I had a Caprice and I added those red airbag helper springs, the ones that fit inside the coils, anyway, not only did they increase the springrate which made the car handle better, but they also improved the ride quality. It was a win win situation so I'm not ready to give up on the air spring idea for the F-body.
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-23-2007 at 09:02 AM.
10-23-2007, 03:32 AM
#35
Cool link to air spring design. Part 1.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_3034/article.html
Part 2.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_3035/article.html
More cool stuff. Check out this strut kit. They maching the ends to fit your shocks or struts.
$625 Australian for a pair. So about $550pr US. Here:
users dot bigpond.net.au/burnin/Struts%20&%20cylinders.htm
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_3034/article.html
Part 2.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_3035/article.html
More cool stuff. Check out this strut kit. They maching the ends to fit your shocks or struts.
$625 Australian for a pair. So about $550pr US. Here:
users dot bigpond.net.au/burnin/Struts%20&%20cylinders.htm
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-23-2007 at 05:29 AM.
10-23-2007, 05:33 AM
#36
Yet another do it yourself air strut kit. $199ea.
Here:
kmwperformance dot com/product/USTRUTBAG.aspx
From Ebay. It's the UVAIR kit from above. $400pr for the kit.
Ebay store name: Winning Edge Customs or edgemotorworks
Straight from Universal Air Suspension Company.
Here:
kmwperformance dot com/product/USTRUTBAG.aspx
From Ebay. It's the UVAIR kit from above. $400pr for the kit.
This is a Universal Air Suspension Strut airbags. There hollow inside allows them to be mounted over factory struts suchs as Macpherson strut suspension and coilover shocks. Many common uses are found in the front of Dodge Magnums, Chargers, Chrysler 300s, 04+ F150, Expeditions, 07+ Tahoes 1500s, Suburbans. Many universal applications. Sales is complete with two strut bags and universal bracket. Lower Brackets must be professionally welded to strut. Message us with any questions.
Straight from Universal Air Suspension Company.
Currently we manufacture the only Air bag that is designed for use with your existing strut. Our Aero Sport has been patented in the U.S.A, Australia, Japan and Canada. To view the details on the design please click here.
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-23-2007 at 10:54 AM.
10-23-2007, 10:56 AM
#37
The UVAIR Aero Sport: Designed for to slip over your Factory/Performance Struts. (Pressure tube must be less then 2.14 in Diameter)
4.0" Compressed
9.25" Extended
5.875" Diameter
Anyone know the diameter of the Koni shock?
I know it's the same as the stock DeCarbons, which are under 2" in diameter which means these will fit. I'm not so sure my Ground Control sleeves would fit, though. So what I would need to do is get some metal pipe that can slide tightly over the shock body and weld a metal plate on top to act as a lower bag mount. The pipe will but against the snap ring on the shock, just like stock. The height can then be controlled by the length of the pipe. Now there is a chance the snap ring groove is too high. In that case a new groove would need to be cut lower in the shock body. There are shops that do that.
Since most folks don't know all the details of how the shocks fit together, here is a pic of how the factory lower shock mount fits onto the shock.
Here are where the grooves are on the Koni SA. Note it has 2 grooves for 2 different heights. Stock and about a 3/4" drop.
Form studying these pics and the Air Ride brand shocks I'm pretty sure that a new groove won't need to be cut.
So far it looks like these Universal Aero Sport will work with the stock or Koni shocks. Here is a PDF file about installation on a strut which is basically the same as our shock.
Universal Aero Sport Install Guide
It's a completely internally sealed bag so air won't leak around your shock. The shock body will be exposed to help disipate heat, but the shock rod will be covered.
4.0" Compressed
9.25" Extended
5.875" Diameter
Anyone know the diameter of the Koni shock?
I know it's the same as the stock DeCarbons, which are under 2" in diameter which means these will fit. I'm not so sure my Ground Control sleeves would fit, though. So what I would need to do is get some metal pipe that can slide tightly over the shock body and weld a metal plate on top to act as a lower bag mount. The pipe will but against the snap ring on the shock, just like stock. The height can then be controlled by the length of the pipe. Now there is a chance the snap ring groove is too high. In that case a new groove would need to be cut lower in the shock body. There are shops that do that.
Since most folks don't know all the details of how the shocks fit together, here is a pic of how the factory lower shock mount fits onto the shock.
Here are where the grooves are on the Koni SA. Note it has 2 grooves for 2 different heights. Stock and about a 3/4" drop.
Form studying these pics and the Air Ride brand shocks I'm pretty sure that a new groove won't need to be cut.
So far it looks like these Universal Aero Sport will work with the stock or Koni shocks. Here is a PDF file about installation on a strut which is basically the same as our shock.
Universal Aero Sport Install Guide
It's a completely internally sealed bag so air won't leak around your shock. The shock body will be exposed to help disipate heat, but the shock rod will be covered.
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-23-2007 at 11:20 AM.
10-25-2007, 01:55 AM
#38
Amit, here is the new URL for your first post.
http://www.hzemall.com/our_gallery/i...blue/cover.htm
I started another thread just about these Universal Air (UVAIR) Aero Sport bags here:
Air Ride Using YOUR Front Shocks for $350
All my measurements show they can fit over the stock or aftermarket shocks, like the Koni and Bilstein.
Sam, if your still monitoring this thread, what can you tell us in general concerning the spring rate of an air bag?
The rate is not really progressive is it? More like exponential, I believe. Kind of like the cellular polyurethene bumpstops I measured. The rate increases slowly and first and then starts to ramp up. At least that's what I'm thinking just based on squishing a balloon or something similar. I know the bag shape and it's stiffness is a key factor as well.
The spring rate is still the one unknown. Once you install the bags and adjust the pressure to the ride you want your kind of stuck with whatever spring rate you happen to get. Or are you?
I can think of a couple of tricks to make the bags stiffer.
1. One is to use a long progressive bumpstop.
2. Another would be to have less air in the bag by displacement. We may be able to inject some RTV silicone in through the air nozzle and let it build up at the base. Once it cures, the bag will need more pressure to get to the same ride height as before and that means it will be stiffer.
3. Another thought would be to add a steel band around the center of it to control the shape of the bag. In fact, we could make the band somewhat tight to give the bag a tapered waistline which would reduce the air volume as well as control it's bulging. I think we could make the rate pretty stiff with this technique.
Combined with the Koni shocks with the adjustable rebound I don't see why we couldn't get really good handling out of this air spring setup.
http://www.hzemall.com/our_gallery/i...blue/cover.htm
I started another thread just about these Universal Air (UVAIR) Aero Sport bags here:
Air Ride Using YOUR Front Shocks for $350
All my measurements show they can fit over the stock or aftermarket shocks, like the Koni and Bilstein.
Sam, if your still monitoring this thread, what can you tell us in general concerning the spring rate of an air bag?
The rate is not really progressive is it? More like exponential, I believe. Kind of like the cellular polyurethene bumpstops I measured. The rate increases slowly and first and then starts to ramp up. At least that's what I'm thinking just based on squishing a balloon or something similar. I know the bag shape and it's stiffness is a key factor as well.
The spring rate is still the one unknown. Once you install the bags and adjust the pressure to the ride you want your kind of stuck with whatever spring rate you happen to get. Or are you?
I can think of a couple of tricks to make the bags stiffer.
1. One is to use a long progressive bumpstop.
2. Another would be to have less air in the bag by displacement. We may be able to inject some RTV silicone in through the air nozzle and let it build up at the base. Once it cures, the bag will need more pressure to get to the same ride height as before and that means it will be stiffer.
3. Another thought would be to add a steel band around the center of it to control the shape of the bag. In fact, we could make the band somewhat tight to give the bag a tapered waistline which would reduce the air volume as well as control it's bulging. I think we could make the rate pretty stiff with this technique.
Combined with the Koni shocks with the adjustable rebound I don't see why we couldn't get really good handling out of this air spring setup.
Last edited by JasonWW; 10-25-2007 at 02:10 AM.
