2002_TAWS6

I deciding on whether I should buy an 8# ATI kit. But first I want to do a little research here. I wanna make sure if ill be able to take off in 1st and 2nd without loosing traction <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> .

Is there a safe way to do this with street tires? how much does that cost? any other suggestions for a daily driver street use?

Also some suggested I should use BFG Drag Radials. What are those exactly? they're not slicks or anything are they?

This is on a Trans Am. It should be running about 460 RWHP dont know if you'd need that. But lets just say I want the set up to be for 500 RWHP just in case <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Yup I need some serious researching when it comes to handling <img border="0" alt="[burn out]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_burnout.gif" /> . Someone please give me a hand.

roy

Driving a boosted car is basically just like driving Naturally aspirated car while in the normal mode of driving. You just have lots more power. The power is there you just have to learn to put it to the ground.

2002_TAWS6

thanks for reply. It seems like you understood what I was trying to ask.

I want to know if there's something I could do to avoid loosing traction such as those matrix bars and stuff (which I have no much knowledge about).

I do know that I need to learn on how to put all that power to the ground. Im asking HOW do I do that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyone else? come on there has to be someone with a procharger here that ran thru the same problem.

Dope

iTrader: (2)

There's no magical solution. You are simply not gonna be able to get traction with that kinda power and radial tires.

I run BFG DRs and I smoke them pretty badly with a mere 320rwhp. 460-500rwhp? Forget it. You're gonna have the ability to spin the tires at highway speeds.

Dope

2002_TAWS6

Holy **** are you serious? I thought matrix braces and sub frame connecters and control arms and all those rods and stuff could prevent the loss of traction?

I dont mean to diss you or anything so dont get me wrong here, but did you try all that? Im trying to get that info from the people who actually tried that. Because if it is not true then its pointless to run the 1/4 with street tires and the charger.

let me get some more answers here to be sure about this.

Dope

iTrader: (2)

I'm surprised no one else has chimed in but:

All the fancy suspension pieces do help, but marginally. They are not magic. The biggest factor is the tires - they are about 75% of the equation.

I have BMR lca's, panhard rod, torque arm, relocation brackets, swaybars, and subframe connectors, and while they are all great for control, predictability, and cornering, I noticed VERY little change in straight line traction. In fact, I never really gained anything in my 60'. These pieces are great for all around handling and can also cure problems like wheelhop, but you aren't gonna be pulling 1.5 60's (or anywhere near that) on regular street tires. My best 60' on street tires is still a 1.995.

Now, if you got stuff like drag springs and shocks, huge rear swaybar, relocated torque arm to the crossmember, then yes, you'd see some decent improvement, but there's still no way you're gonna hold 500rwhp on regular street tires. It would be a lot more tolerable though, but I also get the impression you want a street car and not an all out drag racer (because you would be using slicks if that were the case).

Your best bet will probably to ride around on some 315/35/17 Nitto DRs with 17x11" wheels, that will probably be pretty acceptable, but don't think you won't be able to smoke them through 3rd if you wanted to.

Traction will be easier with an A4, if you have an M6 it will be even worse.

Hopefully some more people will chime in, maybe some people who are actually making that kind of power, and they'll have some good insight.

Also, what on earth is a matrix brace?

Dope

jimmyblue

iTrader: (11)

8 bags of concrete mix in the back?

Seriously, no matter how perfectly you set
up suspension, you can only have traction up
to the limit of

(weight over rear wheels)*(static coefficient
of friction).

The latter you will sometimes see as greek
letter mu, or mu subscript s for static.

mu=1 is pretty good; that means you could
have 1g acceleration if you had 100% weight
transfer rearward (wheelie) or a 1g skidpad
result.

With a 3500lb car, you just can't expect to
put more than 3500lb of forward force to the
pavement. Most tires fall short in friction;
that's why people buy sticky compounds, heat
them up, etc. - grab. But say, for argument's
sake, you had stickies with mu=1 and a
drivetrain that wouldn't break while lifting
the nose into the air.

3500 lb * 1.1ft wheel diameter = 3500lb-ft
at the axle.

3500lb-ft / 3.23:1 differential ratio = 1084 lb-ft
at the driveshaft.

1084 lb-ft / 3.00:1 = 361 lb-ft at the transmission
input shaft in first gear.

361 lb-ft / 1.8:1 torque converter STR = 200lb-ft
at the flexplate (full stall).

These are your breakaway torque numbers up the
line.

Since 100% rearward weight transfer seldom happens
on a street car, you can even break 'em loose with
a V-6.

You can play with these assumptions and the
calculations as you like.

Doing things like chassis / suspension mods
gets you closer to this ideal, as do sticky
tires and such. Maybe you can even get over
mu=1. But physics doesn't take a holiday just
because you bolted on one more chrome-moly
doodad. It just moves to a better neighborhood.

2FAST4U

No problem:
Tires-Nitto 555r on a 11" wheel
Suspension- Torque Arm,Reloction brackets if needed,sub frams,lca
Drive line- 12bolt with 3.42-3.73
AND JUST DON'T BE A DUMB ***!!

2002_TAWS6

Thanks a lot you guys.

ok im getting that having the supercharger is useless on street tires since it will be totally out of control when it comes to traction.

So the only choice I have is to go towards slicks. How about street slicks will that do? Do I need anything else? How much do those street slicks last anyways?

man i would of been pissed if I had a supercharger on my car and not be able to beat a stock GT on 1st and 2nd because of loosing traction <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />

LS1Bird

Trust me on this one - you can beat that GT without putting the throttle all the way down!

I've done most of the suspension stuff, but ultimately traction is gonna come down to grip at the tire, stick. Softer tires stick better, but wear faster.

There's really no way around that...if there were, I know many NASCAR teams that would pay a great deal for that info.

If it were simply making all that power, and hooking up successfully on regular long-wear street tires, then everyone would be doing it!

Mike M

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

You have to give a little more information here to help us understand your request. Are you asking if you can drive the car daily without having the tires go up in smoke or are you trying to street race and want to be on street tires? Or are you a weekend warrior (most of us are) and don't want to run different tires at the track?

Fact is, the tires are only half of the equation when it comes to coefficiant of friction, the road surface is the other half. Right now, in the north east anyway, all the roads have a thin film of salt on em that prohibits any traction what so ever. I spun last night granny shifting into fourth at 2100 rpm with 3.42 gears.

Another huge factor is the organic lifeform behind the wheel. More races are won or lost because one guy couldn't drive. You have to learn where the threshold of traction is and flirt ever so slightly with it to get the best acceleration from your setup. My buddy Joe Prince can cut 1.7 60's on goodyear gsc's in a 'stalled a-4. Its all on knowing your setup and knowing how to get the most from it.


If you just wanna know if you can drive your car safely with street tires and a supercharger... the answer is people have wrapped themselves around telephone poles with 4-cylinders because they were stupid. Once again respect the power and use it wisely.

:soapbox off:

2002_TAWS6

Alchemist and all you guys, thanks for clearing all that out. This is really helping me out. The more info I get the better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The Alchemist:
<strong> Are you asking if you can drive the car daily without having the tires go up in smoke or are you trying to street race and want to be on street tires? Or are you a weekend warrior (most of us are) and don't want to run different tires at the track?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am asking if i can do all those above. Ofcourse since I know now that it wont be possible Im trying to know what would be and what wouldnt be possible from what you stated above.

What would you recommend I do for my situation? I just talked to a friend of mine. He has a 8# procharger on his 98 TA. He's pushing around 460 RWHP and he said a stock TA beat him on 1st and 2nd because of how his car sucked on traction. Eventually he is getting better at it.

Since he sucked on traction that means with the 460 RWHP he was only able to put 310 RWHP (actually even less) on 1st and 2nd gear. Im starting to think that a TA with 4# s/c would be able to spank a TA with an 8# s/c since it would be much easier for a 4# s/c to put the power to the ground therefore his average horsepower will be higher on 1st, 2nd and maybe 3rd depending on the driver. Dont forget Im reffering to the horsepower on the ground.

Is there a correct way to do this? Do the TAs with 8# s/c really suck big time when it comes to traction? Do the lower control arms and bushings really prevent loosing traction?

$hit im really stuck here.

02SilverWS6

You'll spin less w/ slicks vs. street tires, that's a given on the track. I say use drag radials in the summer and just store the car in the winter. I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> hate to read about another bird being wrapped around a tree - I mean, I care for your safety too!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />

BTW the spelling "loosing" is wrong...I think your meaning to say "losing traction."

Importdestroyer

iTrader: (1)

I have the same problem, dynoed 500rwhp/445rwtq and I spin my 17x11/315s like a *****. No real solution I even chirp 4th gear at 95 mph. Your best bet is to always drive around with a full tank of gas, and get yourself some AFS ZR1 Vette replicas as they are the cheapest 11" wide tire to go with and you wont have to cut or fold your rear quarter panels either.

My TA is lowered and they fit fine, one of the good things of owning a TA ive been told there is a little more room in the back for a larger tire than the camaro. Well when and if you reach these power levels beware, first gear is entirely useless. Dont ever try to burry the pedal in any kind of turn as you will be around a tree!

Ive been running these power levels for 2 yrs now and havent lost it yet but have come close many times. I hope youve been driving your f bod for a while, I didnt immediately jump to close to 600hp right away. My first was a 94 Z28 and then my current stock LS1 and then with just the Vortech 9# kit and then with the cam and headers and tuning. I gradually worked my way here, Im sure youll learn quick!

2002_TAWS6

Thanks for all the feedback. Importdestroyer sent you an email hope you wont mind.

Hmmmm... since the handling section wont be able to solve my problem...I wonder if theres a way to solve this traction problem using electronics?

Couldnt there be a way for me to just floor it all the way in 1st and 2nd and let the computer sort everything out for me (giving me the best 1/4 performance)? I know the 1/4 mile time wont be better than having slicks but it would sure put a better skilled driver to your seat.... BUT i dont think its possible.. my car is 6-spd so it would suck for me even more lol.

Man. This is so sad how these LS1s are true legends but they suck when it comes to delivering that much horsepower to the ground.

I wonder how all those concept cars that have 700+ HP deliver their horsepower to the ground. Why cant we do the same? Is it because our cars have shitty suspensions? or is it because the trans ams and camaro's have a problem with weight distribution? I dont have much physics in me.

But thanks a lot for all of you who helped me out. I do appreciate it.

hmmm Looks like im going towards N20 for my case. That way I could just turn it on in 3rd gear and forget about having traction problems on 1st and 2nd <img border="0" alt="[evil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />

Dope

iTrader: (2)

Actually, our cars have excellent suspension design for putting the power to the ground. Much better than just about any other production car out there (except AWD). And with AWD, you'd be blowing stuff up every day with 500hp at the wheels. Solid axle RWD cars are pretty much the only way to go in drag racing. The only thing better is for strictly drag cars with ladder bar setups or 4 link setups.

The other cars you speak of are much worse. Concept cars with 600-700hp? Heh, they aren't hooking up anytime soon. Even look at some other fast RWD cars, best example being the Supra. Try piloting one with 1000hp to better than 12 sec ETs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> Hell, even the fabled vette is worse off than we are. The tables turn when it comes to cornering, but for getting the power down, it's all us.

Dope

VTTRAPNTA

My advice is get a set a nitto drag radials and use them as your everyday tire with moderate burnouts here and there i got about 10k miles out of a set. Now i've heard that some guys have more problems in drag racing on a 315 drag radial unless heated up by doing a burnout at the track or on a perfect summer road. My last set were on my WS6 wheels and they had awesome grip all the time even in the rain as long as it was 50 degrees or over outside. One downside is they kick up everything they rollover in your wheelwells but i actually never noticed any scratches on my paint. Plain fact is that performance tires suck in the cold,wetness,and snow. My advice to you is take it easy on throttle always be prepared to push the clutch in and you should be fine. Regular tire can be used on show cars and cars with no power but that's about it.

Al