JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Well, here's another one of my crazy ideas.

I have a very cool idea that may work for my needs. I want my car to look real low, but not necessarily while I'm driving it as I can't see what the car looks like anyway. So I could keep my current Koni SA and the GC coilovers up front, but set the ride height real low so the bumpstops are compressed. Then, using a digital controller, I can add a air cylinder to press down on the lower control arm to a preset pressure which would be the current ride height. This is the height I will drive, race and get aligned at. When the engine turns off it will decrease the air pressure allowing the suspension and the car to sink real low. Then when I crank it back up it will raise back into the normal cruise height. This means the alignment will always be right.
If I come across a steep driveway or something I can hit a button and increase the air pressure to lift the vehicle real high for clearance.

This is all part of a new, lower ground effects package I'm thinking of making. Especially a low spoiler up front. I would almost have to have a way to lift the car in certain situations such as changing a tire, moving it onto a flatbed wrecker, offroading , etc...

Here's a quick sketch I did.


For an air cylinder to lift the car a mere 2" with the current springs already supporting almost all the weight, it shouldn't take too much air pressure to lift the car that distance. Since some of the cars weight will be transfered to the air cylinder, I will probably want to reduce my 550lb springs to maybe 450 to compensate. I believe the shock would work just as well as it always had. It probably wouldn't know the difference.

What do you guys think?

BTW, the air cylinders are about 3.25 in diameter and the GC springs are smaller in diameter as well so I think I have the room I need to mount them. Cylinders are about 75 bucks each, of course the real money will go to the digital smart controller, tank, valves, sensors, etc...

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I really love the stance an air assisited vehicle can get when parked. Ragtop Rat's car.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Damn, a lot of views, but no opinions? I thought you guys loved voicing your opinions on stuff.

Money aside, what do you think of this in concept? The concept is having a meduim drop ride height, super low parked height and an optional 4x4 height for clearing obstacles.

Do you guys see any problems or shortcomings with this idea?

InsaneAuto86

iTrader: (60)

I like the idea but it seems a bit complicated of a design. Did you see that post about a vendor making drop spindles for our cars?

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I was actually thinking of making my own drop spindles a while back. If I do the air cylinder idea it would solve all my problems and I wouldn't need the spindles.

Can you post a link to the spindle thread? EDIT, nevermind, I found it.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Take out all the complication of the air pump, tank, valves, controller, etc... as that stuff is already sorted out. The only thing I really need to figure out is what cylinder to use and how to mount it in the front. If I can figure that part out, the rest will be easy.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I was just saying this in another thread, but felt I should post it here as well.

I also know of a short hydraulic cylinder that is mounted on top of a coil spring to change the rear suspension preload on circle track cars, but it's stroke is quite small and is adjusted by hand turning a **** within the drivers reach. I like that idea if the stroke where greater and I had automatic control of the fluid. Then you could mount them under the front shocks, use the GC kit to drop the ride height which would compensate for the extra height the adjustor takes up and you'd have an adjustable ride height using great springs and shocks.

You could set a tall ride height, get the suspension aligned and then use the cylinders to drop the car when you turn the engine off. Every time you get out of the car it would look slammed, but it would still ride and handle like a dream.

You can call me crazy, but if we can get some smart folks who can think outside conventional wisdom, it should be possible.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to keep updating this post with cars that have some type of adjustable ride height control or components that might do the same. BTW, I'm not so much interested in hydrualic lowriders. I want to keep the handling performance.

Wicked cool link to The Suspension Bible which explains numerous types and designs.
http://www.newprotest.org/projects/5...suspension.htm

It turns out the Bugatti Veyron has hydraulic ride height control.
3 Stage Hydraulic Strut Suspension...30" travel
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411335

Anyone have any info on F1 cars adjustable ride height systems before they were banned?
Ooo, found something here:
http://www.creuat.com/

Damn, this is sweet:



Download the PDF file to read more about it.
http://www.creuat.com/docs/scanned/racecar.pdf

Interesting part here, need to look into it more.
http://www.strutmasters.com/jaguar/index.htm

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Here are those air bag shocks I mentioned earlier for $500 or so a pair.

They are made by Air Over Shock and come in 4 different lengths.
More info here:
accessconnect dot com/bellows_air_over_shock.htm

I think these guys are going to be getting a call from me to find out more about the shock they use.

Just a note about an air system. It seems to me that if you can adjust the lower mount of the air bag you can fine tune the spring rate at a particular ride height. Lets say 85psi feels real sporty, but it makes the car sit too high. You just lower the air bag mount to adjust the ride height to where you want it. You may end up reducing you travel slightly, but at least the ride won't be too firm or soft.

cpt_bimes

iTrader: (7)

air bags are for draggin' and minitrucks man. They really don't belong on a car IMO.

I think you need to ride in something with airbags on it. It's like you are floating on a cloud. There is no definition when you turn, the vehicle sways, etc.

Not for a performance minded vehicle in other words.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Well lets figure out why.
Do the air pressures need to be higher to increase the spring rate?
Do the shock settings need to be firmed up?

I've seen air suspensions on some street carving BMW's before and they love the handling. So there has to be potential if all the parts are carefully thought out.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Now here's something interesting. A universal air bag designed to slip over a shock or strut. Looks to be about $170ea.

Universal Air (UVAIR) Aero Sport Single Convoluted Air Bag
Designed to Slip Over Your Factory / Performance Strut


barelylegalfabrication dot com/uvaerosportdetailspage.htm

I bet they will have a higher springrate than the other bag/shock assemblies, due to their smaller air volume, plus we might be able to run our good Koni shocks with them.

Straight from Universal Air Suspension Company.
The UVAIR Aero Sport: Designed for to slip over your Factory/Performance Struts. (Pressure tube must be less then 2.14 in Diameter)

4.0" Compressed
9.25" Extended
5.875" Diameter

Anyone know the diameter of the Koni shock?
Nevermind, I know it's the same as the stock DeCarbons, which are under 2" in diameter which means these will fit. I'm not so sure my Ground Control sleeves would fit, though. So what I would need to do is get some metal pipe that can slide tightly over the shock body and weld a metal plate on top to act as a lower bag mount. The pipe will butt against the snap ring on the shock, just like stock. The height can then be controlled by the length of the pipe. Now there is a chance the snap ring groove is too high. In that case a new groove would need to be cut lower in the shock body. There are shops that do that.

Since most folks don't know all the details of how the shocks fit together, here is a pic of how the factory lower shock mount fits onto the shock.


Here are where the grooves are on the Koni SA. Note it has 2 grooves for 2 different heights. Stock and about a 3/4" drop.


From studying these pics and the Air Ride brand shocks I'm pretty sure that a new groove won't need to be cut.

So far it looks like these Universal Aero Sport will work with the stock or Koni shocks. Here is a PDF file about installation on a strut which is basically the same as our shock.
Universal Aero Sport Install Guide All it needs is a flat plate on both ends.

It's a completely internally sealed bag so air won't leak around your shock. The shock body will be exposed to help disipate heat, but the shock rod will be covered. This looks like he solution for us. If the steering response is slow, just add some rebound to quicken it up. We may end up using a bit more rebound then we would with say a 500lb spring, but I doubt it would ride too harsh simply due to the way the air spring works. I have my Koni SA shocks at about half the rebound adjustment so there is quite a bit more adjustment left to tighten things up.

rocket22

iTrader: (2)

I love Air ride, had it on some street rods, it handes well, not a road race set up, but well for street driving, plus you can slam it when parked.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to slow down in this thread and focus on just these Aero Sport air springs over some Koni shocks. This seems to me to be the best of both worlds. We don't have to switch over to a shock that is poorly designed and not valved for our cars. Plus the smaller bag volume may have a firmer rate to it which seems really good for a performance minded vehicle. Definetely better than the one piece assembled air/shocks.

This is the thread focused on them:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/803631-air-ride-using-your-front-shocks-350-a.html

If for some unknown reason those won't work, I may be back here working on the supplimental air cylinder idea.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I did find a pretty neat device that works with coilover springs that will raise a lowered car up without effecting the spring rate or anything else. They are kind of pricy and are mostly used on exotic cars like Lambo's, Ferrari's, etc...

It's from a Japanese company called Roberuta and it's called the Roberuta Cup. It just a little cup that sits on the shock and when filled with air it will raise the car.





As you can see, it is a nice design, but the stroke is pretty short. It does give low cars an unfair advantage, though. It's just too expensive and height limited for my use, but I thought you guys should know about them.

2002BlackSS

iTrader: (4)

The main problem with your first post's concept is that it doesn't really help solve the issue of an unknown spring rate unless you only use max pressure and no pressure, which means your ride height would be either up or down but nowhere in between. Also, the worst part of the airride setup is that the height you are at while driving is utilizing the air as a spring. Your design doesn't change this.

It would be better if you could figure out a way to use only the sping/shock assembly while driving and air or a piston to lower it to your desired show height.

Oddly enough, the first thing I thought of was a piston sitting under or over the shock assebly like the Roberuta cup you posted in the last post. I don't know what it costs, but I was thinking of a hydraulic fluid filled piston instead of air, which may be cheaper to implement, though since they are already producing something that does the exact job you're looking for, I can't see producing a reliable unique system for yourself as being cheaper, regardless of the design. I'd recommend you suck it up and buy their setup, since it looks like it would be the perfect solution for you.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

The cup setup is about $3000. It does not do what I want it to, so it is eliminated as far as I'm concerned. I posted it as maybe someone else might like it.

This is where we differ. I have the vision most do not. I think I already have the perfect solution worked out which is much cheaper and does everything I want it to.

You hit the nail on the head here. I plan to use a hydraulic cylinder on top of a coilover.

Go here to my latest thread concerning this topic:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/823483-hydraulic-coilover-thread.html

2002BlackSS

iTrader: (4)

I hope it works out for you. It'll be interesting to see if what you work out does the job you want it to at a price significantly less than $3k. I do hope you are a machinist or have a machinist friend.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

No machining that I can see.

$3000?

The hydraulic parts can be had for well under $600, the electronic controller is what will cost. Maybe $500-$1100? I need to find out which controller would be best and what the loadlevel sensors will cost.

FireSilverLullaby

iTrader: (5)

any more thoughts about this design. i think its an awesome idea. great performance while your driving like a conventional shock and spring, slammed when your parked, and you can raise it if you ever run into giant speed bumps or inclines. im sure anything would be expensive but theirs got to be a way to do it with all these features.

maybe theirs a way to you could hook a motor up to a ground control kit to alter ride height from the inside of your car.

good luck, im sure you'll be making good money if you figure out a way to do this.