JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

You don't remove all the air to sit the car down. Just get the pressure low enough, then it will sit on the bumpstops. The bumpstops are designed to prevent damage and the shocks are not going to be stressed if the bumpstops are set up so that the compression travel of the suspension does not compress to the point that the shock is overly compressed. If you removed the bumpstops, then yes, shock damage could occur. What do you think happens when your going down the road and hit a 2x4 laying in the road? The shock switches to it's high speed valving and the tire will rise and fall quickly. If it rises too much it will hit the bumpstops. Sometimes you smash the bumpstops really hard and the cars unibody will stress and flex before the shock gets any damage.

So just dropping the car all the way to the bumpstops while sitting still or going very slowly on a smooth surface is no problem at all. If you try to drive down a bumpy road with the car on the bumpstops and you hit a pothole or bump then you will shock the whole car. It might damage the shock, or it might not. Hard to say. I hope everyone has enough common sense to not drive around with the car on the bumpstops.

I did a whole write up on bumpstops and suspension travel if your interested.
Heres my thread on bumpstops:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/249607-bumpstop-spring-rates-inside.html#post3574986

Heres my thread on suspension travel:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...12#post4942812

I should also note that most shocks have internal bumpstops as well (koni's do). Hopefully the external bumpstops will prevent you from hiting the shocks internal ones.

When I first installed my Koni's and GC kit about 4 years ago I had the car sitting pretty low for the first day. I think I had about 1.25" compression travel. Way too little even with 550lb springs. It was drivable, but any decent sized bump would impact the car pretty good. About the only way you can safely drive around at this height would be if you tubbed the car front and rear to allow for more suspension travel. I know only one guy who's tubbed the front (several have done the rear) so it can be done. It's a lot of work, though.

A couple of my old "slammed" pics.



Since then i raised it up to give myself 2" of travel:


Now I have some slightly taller tires, but I still have the same amount of suspension travel.


Ideally I think you would want want about 2.25"-2.5" of compression travel with a 500-550lb spring to ride real nice and have that quick, sporty feel. This is what I'm hoping to accomplish with the air springs.

So hopefully I've convinced you guys that the shocks are not going to "blow" with a air spring setup. Do you guys have any other concerns?

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

then explain how when i had sportlines, i BLEW my shocks within a week. ask anybody that knows anything about suspension. i'm not talking hear-say. this is what happens. as far as i know, there is not a shock for our cars that is built to handle the pressure that a bag setup will put on them. if you cant understand this, then you're clearly not as smart as you think you are on the subject (not meant as an insult)

you obviously do not understand air-bags. i've been around bagged trucks for over 5 years. i can bag a truck myself to make it lay frame. hopping the vehicle, yes puts extra stress on the whole vehicle, frame, suspension components, chassis, body, everything. its not good for the car (and yes you do use a shock). laying it out, is like what Alt said, you park it and drop it basically. doing that puts an extended amount of stress on the shocks that they arent meant to handle, yes a koni would probably last for a while, but not nearly as long as you think or want. the shock and the valving itself is not meant for that kind of abuse...koni's have been known to blow, or 'wear-out' being used with Sportlines


if you're saying shocks don't blow, how do you explain Sam recommending Koni SAs over DAs...he does that bc the SAs are more durable for street use, and the DA while being a great shock will blow over time with constant street use. DAs are used mainly in serious racing when they will be revalved for different track setups...(and i mean revalved after every race)

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

i love the stance of your TA...but you're still wrong.

a shock (such as a koni), is meant/built to compress and and then release. the rate at which it does that is either set solely in the valving, or combined valving an external control. by keeping the shock in 'compression' you are putting additional stress on the shock that it was not meant to handle. now maybe if you were on DAs and set both rebound and compression to the softest settings it would help. but i don't know, maybe thats why QA1s were being used in kits bc they already have a softer valving then Koni's do.

but keeping the shock in a prolonged state of compression is not good. koni's have also been known to leak/blow the valving on hard DD abuse at the stiffest setting, hence why Sam recommends people not to set it to full stiff. it's making the shock work extra hard greatly shortening its life span

Alt

iTrader: (6)

Jason I am not new to air bag systems you can remove all of the air out of a bag if you please. I do not have the time to read your posts on suspension travel at the moment but will do so once I have some time to see what you have found out. However the air ride system for my car will be designed to lay out as much as allowed and more if possible. My convertible bump stop is shorter than a t-top or hard top and if I can get away with dropping it more then I will for a more layed-out look. The stance your TA has is very nice but our goals seem to be a little different. I want to accomplish building panty dropping cruiser that can throw more sparks than a grinder on the street. 3 wheeling is also something I have yet to see an F-body do. So being that my bumpstops are shorter by an inch and a half I believe, what will that do to the life of my shocks if I let the car sit layed out everywhere I went?

SIK02SS: any idea on where to place my valve setup? I need to get ahold of a camera so I can show you what I have going on but I have a tee fitting and on each side I have a fill going to a cross, 1/4 line to a gauge, 3/8 out to the bag and a dump. So its kind of long with 4 valves in a row. Should I look into the subthump amp rack and mount them to there or do you have another idea? I am keen with not ever having room in my trunk and I might move my nitrous bottle to the spare tire well so I'm trying to keep that open. I am also running 1/2 line to the 2 valve setups to try to maximize flow between the sets when I fill all at once.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I'll be the first to admit I don't know anything about air springs. I've never had them or been around them. Closest was when I had a 90 towncar way back in the day.

In one point your saying that the Sportline springs blew your shocks within a week. I've never heard that before and I've spent probably 3500 of my 4300 posts here in the suspension section. I've also talked to Sam many times on the phone and here in this forum as well as some other forums and I've never heard him say anything to the nature that Sportlines blow shocks. He and I will both tell you that they are too soft for their ride height. I just don't know, maybe I missed it somehow. Do you remember any threads at all where someone talks about this? I'd sure like to learn more.

Your other point about keeping the shocks in a state on full compression for long periods of time, like overnight, is going to make them blow or be damaged in some way is also new to me. I've never heard that before. Pretty much all shocks are shipped with a strong band around them holding them fully compressed for packaging purposes. I just don't see how that can be an issue either. Again, I'd like to learn more about this. I've never heard Sam say anything about it as well.

Assuming both your points are true (not to sound insulting) I can think of a couple of ways to keep the shock from fully compressing. One is to have the shocks shortened and then run longer bumpstops. The tires should touch the fender sheetmetal before the shock is fully compressed. You do lose some ride height when fully raised up, but that shouldn't be a big deal. Another solution would be to modify the top shock mount so it sit's higher, then run a longer bumpstop again to compensate. Same end result, but cheaper to do.

You guys are going need to explain to me about the extra stresses air springs have over metal springs. Aside from jumping vehicles and so forth I don't see how they can be so much more harsh. Assuming of course your not driving around with the car dropped so low you don't have enough compression travel and your beating the shocks and bumpstops all to pieces. That should be common sense, though. Is that what you mean? Dumbasses driving down the road with the vehicle way too low?

This I can answer. The bump valving on the SA shock is the same as the DA shock when set to full soft. In his experience as well as the vast majority of racers who use the DA shocks they always set the bump valving to full soft. At this point it makes no sense to spend so much more money on an adjustment **** your not even going to use. It's just money down the drain. Under certain road racing situations using really stiff springs the DA's can be benificial as you may actually need to adjust the bump setting.

The other big reason is that the SA's have a lifetime warranty, while the DA's have a very short or non-existant warranty.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

BTW, did I post links to Slammed1500's camaro? It is extensively modded and can "lay frame". It's the only f-body I know like that.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/appearance-detailing/787832-project-obsessed.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/tools-fabrication/801893-tubed-camaro-pics.html

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I think you all are missing the very simple point that it is possible to bottom and damage a shock, even with a bumpstop in place. By running too soft a spring rate and/or too low, you will hurt the shock.

Running a Koni on full firm doesn't blow it up, it's just way stiffer than most folks need and the ride and impacts on the car and you are quite punishing. More over, a shock sitting statically at a more compressed height than say stock doesn't hurt it either.

What breaks shocks are impacts. The fact is you can break Koni's in some instances by bottoming them, even though they have a built-on bumpstop. Happens from time to time with my lowering springs, which @ 550 aren't nearly as soft as say a Pro-kit and very much like some other front springs in rate, and also aren't at all slammed in height. So, if that can happen (and it's rare, and it's covered under warranty) what do you think will happen with lesser spring rate and a lower ride height?

I admit, I haven't followed this thread much, and I haven't read all of it. I think airbags are not a good performance option... has anyone figured out the "spring rate" of any of these bags @ stock height? How about @ a 1" drop? Without that info, I'll never sign off on any kit, whether they use a Koni or not.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I've searched high and low for info on what the spring rates will be at a certain pressure etc... and have yet to find any good info. Or any info at all for that matter. It's like no one cares. Like bumpstops, I guess I'll just have to buy the strut bag I talk about in this thread and actually measure them.

Oh snap! I just thought of a fix for my testing methodology. In the past I could only measure rear spring rates as my scales only went to 300lbs and front springs are just too stiff for testing. What if I use 2 or 3 scales and build a load spreader type thing so the weight is distributed over all of them. With a 900lb max I should be able to preload the springs to get rid of the end coil slop and then give it a good 1" press. I think that may just work.

I think all I need is someone with airbags on the front to tell me what pressure provides what ride height so I know where to begin my testing.

If you graph it, I believe a linear rate coil spring is going to increase it's rate in a straight line at say a 45* angle. The weight just keeps adding up.

The air spring should start out straight but start to ramp up quickly as the bag stops expanding and the pressure starts going up really fast. That's my theory at least.

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

hmm, i dunno. i dont follow builds of bagged f-bodys. where is your tank and compressor going? i think if i was going to do it, i'd have the compressor under the back bumper behind the gas tank..and since your a vert, prolly mount the tank in the 'trunk' area. maybe mount the valves down underneath with the compressor. i like to have things clean and out the way, thats why i'd do it like this...i'm also not that familiar with the way verts look in the back, seen em, just havent payed that much attention

SIK02SS

iTrader: (11)

thanks for clearing this up Sam

Alt

iTrader: (6)

Imagine you just have a trunk with nothing to sit anything on on that nice spot where I have 2 amps on my hardtop. So I am left with a trunk where the tank and compressor sit on the bottom, a spare tire well for a possible nitrous bottle relocation and a 6disk changer with vert controls on the other side. Only thing I can think of it attaching it to an amp rack thats mounted vertically at in the trunk closest to the outside furthest from the gas tank

sapper_daddy

iTrader: (12)

has anyone figured out the problem of HAVING AN AIR COMPRESSOR RUNNING INSIDE THE CAR EVERYTIME YOU MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT OR HAVE A LEAK? I think it is cool to entertain the idea of air ride, as a matter of fact GM high tech did a big install on an ART kit........but it's just too loud for my tastes

NHRAMAN

iTrader: (1)

................

3.4camaro

iTrader: (1)

That slope wouldn't necessarily be 1, it would depend on units used and how the graph is set up. If it's a true linear coil spring, weight v. compression should be a straight line.

Alt

iTrader: (6)

With 5 gallons of 150# air you should be able to fill all 4 bags w/o having the compressor kick on. Assuming that you're running ~95# in the front and ~55# in the rear. If you have a leak.. well on my system its 18 joints where I could leak from, all but 4 of them are inside the cabin, I would hear myself losing air and if by chance I didn't I still have valves in line to find a leak if one develops. Quick connect fittings are great for repairs too, just cut the end off and stick it back into the fitting.

sapper_daddy

iTrader: (12)

well you are right, that is alot better, but I'm just trying to picture in my head where that five gallon tank would fit, I guess there is really only one spot.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Since I don't run a muffler after the axle I'd love to find a tank that would fit in that location. 5 gallon size should be no problem in that area. Does any company make custom tanks? Do they need to be DOT certified in order to be safe?

I also don't see a problem with using multiple small tanks. A gallon here, a gallon there, etc... Only potential problem I see is that it means more air lines that could leak.

Is 95psi front, 55psi rear about a good average for a bagged F-body?

For those guys here with air suspension experience, can you point us to a good source of info, like a beginners guide that explains how all the parts work? Or maybe do a write up here in this forum? Hardely anyone here knows about air suspensions. Maybe post some good sites for parts.

So far I think some good sites with a big selection and good prices are:
easystreetair
suicidedoors

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the bare minimum parts and expense needed for an air ride setup are just the 4 air springs. I was going to get them first and just inflate them from a shop compressor. This will let me know how they ride and handle without an huge investment. $450 or so.

Then maybe add a pair of those dual needle pressure gauges just to keep an eye out for leaks. $30

I think the next step is a pretty big money jump. A pump, electric valves(solenoids) and a simple set of switches to control the solenoids. This will let you manually control the bag pressures from the cockpit, but might be real slow as you don't have an air reserve. I guess you would also have to turn the pump on manually as well. Would that work? I guess you turn the pump on right before you want to add air to any bag. What, $400 minimum?

Does anyone make manual valves, with a lever for instance, that you can plumb into the cab? If they do, it may be a cheaper alternative, but it may not be worth it.

Next step would be a tank to store some air. 4-5 gallon minimum. Along with a tank would be a pressure switch to let the pump run by itself to maintain a certain pressure. $85

At this point I think you can relax as you have all the minimum parts you need. I guess the only thing left would be a fancy digital controller and those babies are expensive. $500 to $1200.

Of course better components are going to cost more. A bigger pump, a manifold to mount the valves to, bigger 1/2 valves, fancier switches, digital gauges, etc...

Alt

iTrader: (6)

Suicide doors 3/8 starter kit is a good bare bones thing to work off of. Has almost everything minus some more 3/8 line and fittings and the bags.

So tank, valves, compressor, gauges, 1/2 line and 1/4 line. Need 3/8 line and more 1/4 line to add to the cart.

sneaky7980

iTrader: (15)

Don't mean to hijack but bare with me, (novice)

i want ride approx 1"-1.5" lower all the time
i want to be able to lift for driveways (hell even higher than stock would be nice)
couldn't care less about "laying frame"
don't want handling like a waterbed
air ride technologies is to expensive

yes or no, is this a viable/practical/economical option?

I try to keep it short and to the point