Hydraulic Plumbing (as in lowriders)
12-05-2007, 01:39 PM
#41
true, i'm not doing this with road racing in mind.
i want the car to look cool, get over speed bumps, ride better than stock suspension with cut springs, handle in turns, and straightaway racing in a car that can run low 12's-high 11's.
i have my front sway bar off for dragging and you will too if you want to do side to side moves. sam strano is totally against this in another thread. many say it is unsafe but my driving habits have not changed with it off. but then again i know i'm not setup as it is to try to corner with a z06.
i want the car to look cool, get over speed bumps, ride better than stock suspension with cut springs, handle in turns, and straightaway racing in a car that can run low 12's-high 11's.
i have my front sway bar off for dragging and you will too if you want to do side to side moves. sam strano is totally against this in another thread. many say it is unsafe but my driving habits have not changed with it off. but then again i know i'm not setup as it is to try to corner with a z06.
What thread did you see Sam talking about hydraulics? Or was he talking about front swaybars?
12-05-2007, 01:50 PM
#42
There's no way I want to run 4 extra batteries. If I HAD to, I'd switch over to an air system to save weight. Not only would the extra weight reduce acceleration, but also hurt cornering and stopping distances. 4 big batteries plus another pump will add a lot of weight. Then you have the situation of trying to charge the batteries. That's not at all what I want. I have to adapt these parts to serve my purposes.
That entire Cozytech setup fit under the hood. I don't think it had extra batteries either. It was a tad slow, but I wouldn't mind so much considering it's size.
like i told you, 12 volts will raise 4" of cylinder in maybe 8 seconds on a fresh 800-900 cca battery maybe 4-8 times. 24 volts with 2 batteries will get you up in less than 4 seconds. 36 volts maybe 2 seconds. 48 volts, you'll have to tap the switch instead of holding it because it will be very fast.
oh you are going to love hydraulics!!!!!!!! don't let the extra weight hold you back. you could go 2 batteries and use a streetcharger(about$400) and be good if you don't hit the switch much and cruise to allow the batteries to charge.
i tend to like hitting switches on people so i'd want more battery power available. it's fun to hit a side and bring it back up on somebody while you're going 80 on the freeway. i did that a lot in my 91 camaro.
12-05-2007, 02:00 PM
#43
I can out corner the Z06's now. I also run a massive solid 35mm front bar. I guess I may not be able to have a lot of seperation in the front, but I don't think it's that big a loss.
What thread did you see Sam talking about hydraulics? Or was he talking about front swaybars?
What thread did you see Sam talking about hydraulics? Or was he talking about front swaybars?
if you're into taking z06's out, then any kind of suspension mod might be out of the question. if i had a z06 or it's suspension capabilities, i'd probably not do an ajustable suspension. but i'm all for it if you can find a way and keep your performance. if you've never had an adjustable suspension, i'll tell you that it is some fun chit to have. much better and safer than racing. to me at least. but i want the best of both worlds so i got a camaro instead of a traditional lowrider. what's a z06, ferrari, lambo, benz, yo mama's ice cream truck going to do to you at a redlight when you hit some switches on them? a burnout? lol.
12-05-2007, 02:07 PM
#44
like i told you, 12 volts will raise 4" of cylinder in maybe 8 seconds on a fresh 800-900 cca battery maybe 4-8 times. 24 volts with 2 batteries will get you up in less than 4 seconds. 36 volts maybe 2 seconds. 48 volts, you'll have to tap the switch instead of holding it because it will be very fast.
If you only need to lift the car once, would say, 3 motorcycle batteries give you the 36 volts you need, without running out of juice? Or would one lift wipe them out?
12-05-2007, 02:09 PM
#45
Any thoughts on that tiny Cozytech unit from the video?
12-05-2007, 02:25 PM
#46
Do you recognize any of these pieces?
I was thinking there were small motors on this block, but I bet those are just 2 dump valves for the front and rear. What do you think?
The Cozytech may just use the PS pump for power. I sure don't see a big electric motor anywhere. I wish I knew what language it was in so I could translate it.
I was thinking there were small motors on this block, but I bet those are just 2 dump valves for the front and rear. What do you think?
The Cozytech may just use the PS pump for power. I sure don't see a big electric motor anywhere. I wish I knew what language it was in so I could translate it.
12-05-2007, 02:56 PM
#47
You didn't say it like this. So it looks like the motors suck a huge amount of power, huh? They look just like starter motors. I guess it would be like cranking your engine over for 8 seconds 4 to 8 times and then it won't turn over anymore.
If you only need to lift the car once, would say, 3 motorcycle batteries give you the 36 volts you need, without running out of juice? Or would one lift wipe them out?
If you only need to lift the car once, would say, 3 motorcycle batteries give you the 36 volts you need, without running out of juice? Or would one lift wipe them out?
12-05-2007, 03:20 PM
#48
that cozytech is way too slow!!! that's what a 12 volt setup would do as far as lifting. it is also on a car much lighter than an f body.
dumping can be controlled via a slowdown valve. you could make your car dump extremely slow or make it slam itself with one hit of the switch. the cozytech vid i saw had an extremely slow dump of the pressure in the lines.
the pic of the gold block looks like a 4 dump manifold(2 solenoids on each side). it does not contain motors. those black things with the wires are solenoids to activate the dumps.
here is a pic of one of my almost complete pump.
it has 2 dumps, 2 accumulators, 2 parker check valaves(black), a pressure relief valve in the center, and parker fittings. i have about 600 into this.
dumping can be controlled via a slowdown valve. you could make your car dump extremely slow or make it slam itself with one hit of the switch. the cozytech vid i saw had an extremely slow dump of the pressure in the lines.
the pic of the gold block looks like a 4 dump manifold(2 solenoids on each side). it does not contain motors. those black things with the wires are solenoids to activate the dumps.
here is a pic of one of my almost complete pump.
it has 2 dumps, 2 accumulators, 2 parker check valaves(black), a pressure relief valve in the center, and parker fittings. i have about 600 into this.
12-05-2007, 03:41 PM
#49
That looks nice, real shiny. I would want to mount my gear under the car so I don't care so much about my looks.
If I could fit that Cozytech setup on my car, slow or not, I would. It get's the job done. I'd like for it to be a little faster, but I could live with that speed considering the parts are tiny.
I'm thinking it must use the PS pump. I'm contacting Shark Racing to see if anyone knows how it works.
You know what might work well as far as a single motor? Most vehicles before 54 or so had 6 volt charging systems. I wonder if a 6 volt starter motor could be fitting to a regular pump like yours. Hitting it with 12v would be like hitting a 12v motor with 24v. It will spin up faster! I wonder if one of those motors running off a beefy alternator would lift the car nicely. Something to think about.
If I could fit that Cozytech setup on my car, slow or not, I would. It get's the job done. I'd like for it to be a little faster, but I could live with that speed considering the parts are tiny.
I'm thinking it must use the PS pump. I'm contacting Shark Racing to see if anyone knows how it works.
You know what might work well as far as a single motor? Most vehicles before 54 or so had 6 volt charging systems. I wonder if a 6 volt starter motor could be fitting to a regular pump like yours. Hitting it with 12v would be like hitting a 12v motor with 24v. It will spin up faster! I wonder if one of those motors running off a beefy alternator would lift the car nicely. Something to think about.
12-05-2007, 04:04 PM
#50
I did some more digging.
From a hyundai forum, a guy who has the Cozytech setup.
I think that proves it right there. That unit uses the power steering pump to build pressure. It also uses true coilovers. They mentioned that a certain model Lambo used a similar system.
From a hyundai forum, a guy who has the Cozytech setup.
The Cozytech hydros use OEM powersteering fluid....and as far as taking up space, here is a picture of my engine, the only thing added was the tank (which replaces the power steering reservoir, and the small manifold unit mounted to the firewall...
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-06-2007 at 10:37 PM.
12-05-2007, 04:06 PM
#51
Some more info.
From a hyundai forum, a guy who has the Cozytech setup.
From a hyundai forum, a guy who has the Cozytech setup.
Why don't you people go and read the explanation on the SR hydraulics over at the HA forums?
The SR aren't hydraulics in the since that all of you are thinking, they don't make you car bounce at all. It's based upon TRUE coilovers(not cheap *** sleeves), and it's a very smooth transition when lowering or raising your car. Just watch the video from their website. Also, the cozytec system(the one on SRs website i.e. the SR hydraulic kit), is the same system found on some Lambourginis (sp?). It's a complete bolt on kit, which means no welding to the frame like actual bouncing lowrider hydraulics. Also, you won't need to do any repairs more than any other suspension setup.
Gee let's see here: Actual race inspired coilovers or a floaty ride on a bag with compressable air?
Also, how can the cozy tech kit keep you from reaching your full potential, cadillactiburon? Too much space? How so? It's one oil/fluid resevoir tank in the engine bay, little control switches inside the car(as oppose to a big *** box with switches for an air ride), then the coilovers. WOW, that's a lot of space it takes up :hmmm:
I've talked to a lot of people in my deciding to go with the SR/Cozytech kit, and it's a solid setup. I've read/heard too many bad things about air rides. For shows, yeah they are fine, but street use everyday I wouldn't recomend.
So if these two setups are you only choice, I would go with the SR/Cozytech Hydraulic set up.
The SR aren't hydraulics in the since that all of you are thinking, they don't make you car bounce at all. It's based upon TRUE coilovers(not cheap *** sleeves), and it's a very smooth transition when lowering or raising your car. Just watch the video from their website. Also, the cozytec system(the one on SRs website i.e. the SR hydraulic kit), is the same system found on some Lambourginis (sp?). It's a complete bolt on kit, which means no welding to the frame like actual bouncing lowrider hydraulics. Also, you won't need to do any repairs more than any other suspension setup.
Gee let's see here: Actual race inspired coilovers or a floaty ride on a bag with compressable air?
Also, how can the cozy tech kit keep you from reaching your full potential, cadillactiburon? Too much space? How so? It's one oil/fluid resevoir tank in the engine bay, little control switches inside the car(as oppose to a big *** box with switches for an air ride), then the coilovers. WOW, that's a lot of space it takes up :hmmm:
I've talked to a lot of people in my deciding to go with the SR/Cozytech kit, and it's a solid setup. I've read/heard too many bad things about air rides. For shows, yeah they are fine, but street use everyday I wouldn't recomend.
So if these two setups are you only choice, I would go with the SR/Cozytech Hydraulic set up.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-06-2007 at 10:38 PM.
12-05-2007, 05:06 PM
#52
actual hydraulics don't cause any more bounce than a shock would. it's in the complete suspension setup than can cause bounce. most lowriders are not into shocks. they often are left off of the vehicle. even when there are shocks, they are cheap autozone ones. springs also. pretty much a good hopper/dancer is not designed to ride smooth and corner.
too good of a shock will hinder the lift speed which is definitely not good on a hopper/dancer. but even street riders will often go without shocks. too fast of a pump setup will hurt a shocks durability too. at 24-36 volts, it doesn't concern me but at say 48 volts to the rear, that chit gets violent sitting inside of the car and hittin switches.
if you want to get crazy, you may be able to find a way to hide everything inside of the rear bumper. this was done on an acura cl. dude was on layitlow.com but i haven't seen him post in the hydraulics section in a while.
here is a link to the cl. http://artofnoize.com/Cars/carroll.htm
too good of a shock will hinder the lift speed which is definitely not good on a hopper/dancer. but even street riders will often go without shocks. too fast of a pump setup will hurt a shocks durability too. at 24-36 volts, it doesn't concern me but at say 48 volts to the rear, that chit gets violent sitting inside of the car and hittin switches.
if you want to get crazy, you may be able to find a way to hide everything inside of the rear bumper. this was done on an acura cl. dude was on layitlow.com but i haven't seen him post in the hydraulics section in a while.
here is a link to the cl. http://artofnoize.com/Cars/carroll.htm
12-05-2007, 10:56 PM
#53
Using what little I know about basic hydraulics, would a larger diameter cylinder on the wheels provide more force for lifting at the expense of it moving slower?
Can cylinders be shortened?
For instance, maybe a Bid Daddy cylinder with a 2" outer diameter can be shortened down to a 4" stroke.
Best would be a large diameter shaft. What is the biggest shaft you know of 1 1/8"?
Does line diameter have any effect on performance?
Can cylinders be shortened?
For instance, maybe a Bid Daddy cylinder with a 2" outer diameter can be shortened down to a 4" stroke.
Best would be a large diameter shaft. What is the biggest shaft you know of 1 1/8"?
Does line diameter have any effect on performance?
12-06-2007, 12:49 AM
#54
I'm going to be looking more into engine driven pumps as they seem to make the most sense for my needs.
So far they all seem to be rotary vane units and run between 1000-1200psi. What kind of pressure do the typical lowrider sytems run?
I'm wondering if I could run a fenner style pump in place of an idler pulley with the pump facing towards the engine. The idler pulley is fixed and turns backward so it would turn the pump the proper direction.
If I use a regular PS pump I may be able to boost the pressure by changing the relief valve spring pressure. I just wish I could turn it on and off so it won't be pumping all the time. Maybe an electric A/C compressor clutch can be mated to it so it free wheels most of the time.
So far they all seem to be rotary vane units and run between 1000-1200psi. What kind of pressure do the typical lowrider sytems run?
I'm wondering if I could run a fenner style pump in place of an idler pulley with the pump facing towards the engine. The idler pulley is fixed and turns backward so it would turn the pump the proper direction.
If I use a regular PS pump I may be able to boost the pressure by changing the relief valve spring pressure. I just wish I could turn it on and off so it won't be pumping all the time. Maybe an electric A/C compressor clutch can be mated to it so it free wheels most of the time.
12-06-2007, 05:01 PM
#55
Using what little I know about basic hydraulics, would a larger diameter cylinder on the wheels provide more force for lifting at the expense of it moving slower?
not if you don't have the pressure to fill the cylinder fast enough.
Can cylinders be shortened?
possible, but it'd be better to have some custom made. better make sure you know what you want before ordering a custom cylinder. black magic maight be able to do this.
For instance, maybe a Bid Daddy cylinder with a 2" outer diameter can be shortened down to a 4" stroke.
Best would be a large diameter shaft. What is the biggest shaft you know of 1 1/8"?
bigger shaft is worst for your application in slower speed when raising. thinner is not nescessarily better either. i'm trying to use a competition cylinder because they have been proven to last. prohopper's(PH) comp cylinder is thinner all around than black magic's(BM) comp cylinders. they both work equally well. i just like black magic stuff more. i did buy some prohopper 6" comps because BM did not have comps in 6" unless i had them custom made. BM comp cylinders have a triple o ring. and i think prohopper does as well. but the BM 6" cylinders only had 2 o rings so i went PH. PH cylinders are smaller diameter and require a smaller holed donut. i might be telling you more than you need to know in my posts...sorry...i just want to get things out.
Does line diameter have any effect on performance?
what is line diameter?
not if you don't have the pressure to fill the cylinder fast enough.
Can cylinders be shortened?
possible, but it'd be better to have some custom made. better make sure you know what you want before ordering a custom cylinder. black magic maight be able to do this.
For instance, maybe a Bid Daddy cylinder with a 2" outer diameter can be shortened down to a 4" stroke.
Best would be a large diameter shaft. What is the biggest shaft you know of 1 1/8"?
bigger shaft is worst for your application in slower speed when raising. thinner is not nescessarily better either. i'm trying to use a competition cylinder because they have been proven to last. prohopper's(PH) comp cylinder is thinner all around than black magic's(BM) comp cylinders. they both work equally well. i just like black magic stuff more. i did buy some prohopper 6" comps because BM did not have comps in 6" unless i had them custom made. BM comp cylinders have a triple o ring. and i think prohopper does as well. but the BM 6" cylinders only had 2 o rings so i went PH. PH cylinders are smaller diameter and require a smaller holed donut. i might be telling you more than you need to know in my posts...sorry...i just want to get things out.
Does line diameter have any effect on performance?
what is line diameter?
you are starting to get way over my head because the first step hasn't been made yet in regards to the strut assembly. all this other stuff that you are gettin into won't mean anything if you can't get a shaft to push and make the car go up.
12-06-2007, 09:47 PM
#56
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....4&postcount=12
Then mount a 4" or 6" cylinder above it. As long as the cylinder is mounted firmly, the shocks and spring will work like they are supposed to. You already have the hydraulics and plumbing part worked out.
For the rear you'd run a coilover shock as well and mount it in the stock shock location. The cylinder would need to be mounted rigidly as well and stick up behind the rear seat.
I may have to look into some agricultural parts (tractor parts) as they use hydraulics all the time.
If you want to have the front cylinder firmly attached to the shock rod and have the whole thing pivot near the top by the cylinder hose fitting, I can work out a way to do that as well.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-06-2007 at 10:43 PM.
12-07-2007, 01:26 AM
#57
Here's a hypothetical question. Let say you took just a regular lowrider pump assembly and removed the motor (so you have just the pump, pump block, reservoir) then mounted the whole thing to the front of the engine. We'd probably need to use a fenner style pump. Just have it run constantly with the pressure side feeding through an open dump valve (main pressure valve) so the fluid recirculates. Then when I activate the lift switch, have the valve close so it builds pressure and lifts the car. Check valves could keep it up, while the main pressure valve opened back up and the fluid starts recirculating again.
Do you think the constant running would overheat the fluid or wear out the pump quickly?
If I gear it correctly the pump should be able to lift the car quickly. I think I'd rather have an on/off switch to activate the pump. Kind of like the blower on Mad Max's car. Remember that?
If I could get a 90* gearbox with a clutch I could easily mount it on the front of the engine. With the clutch, I woundn't need that main pressure valve. I could gear the pump to have plenty of speed at idle. Then activate the clutch to lift the car. It would load down the engine, but that should be no big deal as it would be off except when raising the car.
Do you think the constant running would overheat the fluid or wear out the pump quickly?
If I gear it correctly the pump should be able to lift the car quickly. I think I'd rather have an on/off switch to activate the pump. Kind of like the blower on Mad Max's car. Remember that?
If I could get a 90* gearbox with a clutch I could easily mount it on the front of the engine. With the clutch, I woundn't need that main pressure valve. I could gear the pump to have plenty of speed at idle. Then activate the clutch to lift the car. It would load down the engine, but that should be no big deal as it would be off except when raising the car.
12-07-2007, 01:38 AM
#58
I like the electric clutch idea the best.
What if I picked up a used AC compressor from a salvage yard that had the same pulley width as my car like so:
remove the compressor part and replace it with a pump and pumpblock. Basically replace one type of pump for another.
I wonder if the pulley size would allow the pump to lift quickly enough at idle? Hmmm, I might need to change the gearing. Any idea what rpm those pump motors spin at on 24v? Are they rated at a rpm at 12v?
What if I picked up a used AC compressor from a salvage yard that had the same pulley width as my car like so:
remove the compressor part and replace it with a pump and pumpblock. Basically replace one type of pump for another.
I wonder if the pulley size would allow the pump to lift quickly enough at idle? Hmmm, I might need to change the gearing. Any idea what rpm those pump motors spin at on 24v? Are they rated at a rpm at 12v?
12-14-2007, 03:28 PM
#59
I though we figured out how mount the front cylinder? First, you need to throw away that crap front spring and shock setup, get you some good Koni 8216 coilovers ($300ea.) 500lb springs ($50ea) so you can ride nice and low and have more room above to mount your cylinder.
if you set it up and running 12 volts would make this venture pointless. just go with air then. hydraulics is not about lifting at 12 volts.
rigging up a lowrider hydraulic setup to run off the car is pointless. i doubt the pump minus motor will run very long if you constantly run it.
it is possible to rig a setup like a tractor but i would not do it.
12 volts is pointless and a huge part of having hydraulics is to show it off.
more props to you if you or anyone else can get this done safely and within reasonable cost.
12-14-2007, 09:45 PM
#60
The pumps for hydraulics just require too much power so I've decided to go with an air based system. I went back and found solutions to some of the air bag issues I had.
I really don't see how the short hydrailic cylinders right above the coilover shock would not work. It's not going to move the car up and down firmly because the springs and shocks will be absorbing the quick cylinder motion. So if may look funny when you try and show it off. As far as just raising and lowering the car, it should work fine. As long as the cylinder can hold the shock in place firmly. The coilover will do it's job just like it were mounted directly to the car.
I really don't see how the short hydrailic cylinders right above the coilover shock would not work. It's not going to move the car up and down firmly because the springs and shocks will be absorbing the quick cylinder motion. So if may look funny when you try and show it off. As far as just raising and lowering the car, it should work fine. As long as the cylinder can hold the shock in place firmly. The coilover will do it's job just like it were mounted directly to the car.
