BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof!
09-09-2003, 04:52 PM
#41
Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! That's just it, I don't want any more BMR stuff. After what I've been through, it's not worth the risk.
The cost of a new PHB from LGM is $150 with the "Mitch broke his suspension sale". My car is worth more than $150 ...
The cost of a new PHB from LGM is $150 with the "Mitch broke his suspension sale". My car is worth more than $150 ...
09-09-2003, 09:03 PM
#44
Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! I guess its futile to keep these sheep from following the path of the cheap instead of the value.
One more time ...
If you pay $100 for a part instead of $150, you seemingly save $50.
When the $100 part fails, you are out the original $100, plus you now either have to put another $100 into the car for a replacement (only to break again) or spend $150 ONCE and be done with it.
OR YOU CAN SPEND $150 UPFRONT AND FORGET ABOUT IT!
One more time ...
If you pay $100 for a part instead of $150, you seemingly save $50.
When the $100 part fails, you are out the original $100, plus you now either have to put another $100 into the car for a replacement (only to break again) or spend $150 ONCE and be done with it.
OR YOU CAN SPEND $150 UPFRONT AND FORGET ABOUT IT!
09-10-2003, 04:14 AM
#47
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Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof!
Well your first mistake was to assume that any aftermarket company comes anywhere near GM as far as engineering, testing, quality control, etc.
And, as mitch said, they don't provide any adjustability, or any way to adapt to different types of driving.
Point is, I don't think that stock GM parts are a good benchmark to use simply because GM spent the time and money researching and engineering them, because they pretty much negated all of that (in my opnion) by building those parts to the absolute minimum standard.
And Mitch, just because a part costs $150, instead of $100, doesn't mean you're getting a better part. In our case, the price can't really be used as a judge of quality, because the prices are so varied.
That's one of the bigger problems that we (F-Body owners)have, there are a large number of parts, but nobody knows just how well they are built, and consequently, what is the best deal, or the best part. For all we know, the best panhard rod could be the $75 one a guy made in his garage (theoretical one, not real).
09-10-2003, 06:21 AM
#48
Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! And Mitch, just because a part costs $150, instead of $100, doesn't mean you're getting a better part. In our case, the price can't really be used as a judge of quality, because the prices are so varied.
That's one of the bigger problems that we (F-Body owners)have, there are a large number of parts, but nobody knows just how well they are built, and consequently, what is the best deal, or the best part. For all we know, the best panhard rod could be the $75 one a guy made in his garage (theoretical one, not real).
I used the $100/$150 analogy because MOST have "cheap" or "cheapest" as the top criteria in their purchase decision. And MOST equate "quality" with a good weld.
I say again, there is only 1 vendor that I am aware of, that has designed, engineered and proven suspension parts, specifically on a 4th gen F-Body. Lou Gigliotti won 3 World Challenge Championships using the parts he now offers for sale.
You don't win championships breaking torque arms and panhard bars.
09-10-2003, 06:56 AM
#49
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Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! Good point, however....GM puts a lot of engineering into the vehicles, but (to my knowledge), that engineering applies only to "normal" road conditions, so parts are designed to operate within those parameters, and, likwise, are only built to survive those conditions.
And, as mitch said, they don't provide any adjustability, or any way to adapt to different types of driving.
Point is, I don't think that stock GM parts are a good benchmark to use simply because GM spent the time and money researching and engineering them, because they pretty much negated all of that (in my opnion) by building those parts to the absolute minimum standard.
09-10-2003, 10:08 AM
#50
Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! Mike Patterson runs a Z28 in SCCA T2.
Basically a bone stock car ... almost ZERO modifications allowed.
He has to replace brake calipers, bushings, suspension parts regularly, many after each race weekend.
Basically a bone stock car ... almost ZERO modifications allowed.
He has to replace brake calipers, bushings, suspension parts regularly, many after each race weekend.
09-10-2003, 11:01 AM
#51
Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof!
I find the rods themselves to be of reasonable quality, but the Heim joints that they use are designed to maximize profit (though, in all fairness, they may not ever break....they will just sound like they did).
09-10-2003, 01:43 PM
#52
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Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof!
Well your first mistake was to assume that any aftermarket company comes anywhere near GM as far as engineering, testing, quality control, etc.
And, as mitch said, they don't provide any adjustability, or any way to adapt to different types of driving.
Point is, I don't think that stock GM parts are a good benchmark to use simply because GM spent the time and money researching and engineering them, because they pretty much negated all of that (in my opnion) by building those parts to the absolute minimum standard.
). How applicable those parameters are to YOUR particular needs are what dictates their success or failure in your application. GM's internal design parameters are unknown to most of us, but are probably very conservative and based on what they consider regular street use. For the OEM its likely a balance of cost, reliability (i.e. minimizing warranty claims), safety, manufacturability, and some degree of performance (this parameter likely varies from model to model). So to say in a blanket fashion that "so-and-so designed it and they have a billion dollar R&D budget so it must be better" is misleading. The part in question might just be the absolute most awesome part ever built for the specific design constraints in which it was conceived. But, again, that doesn't mean it will perform well if even one of the constraints is no longer valid. I once saw a John Lingenfelter quote saying something to the effect that his job as a performance tuner was much easier than that of an engineer at an OEM since he knows exactly what his customer wants and will live with. The staff engineer has to take all kinds of demographics into account as well as DOT regs, etc. Of course, with the OEM you generally know that you aren't going to get a part that will break in routine service under "non-abusive" conditions. With aftermarket parts, on the other hand, you know nothing of the design parameters - not even if any were used in the first place. I see all the time the fabricator's theory that bigger, heavier, and thicker must be stronger and therefore better. Problem is that this approach often exposes other (possibly more dangerous) weakpoints elsewhere in the chain. A failed PHR on the street could be deadly under the right (wrong) circumstances. So, since we don't have the "white paper" on the various designs, the next best thing (actually better in many cases) is empirical data. Race-proven designs are very valid in this case since you know that they can withstand extreme conditions consistently. Of course you have to determine for yourself how valid those particular conditions are to your needs.
09-11-2003, 02:42 AM
#53
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Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! If in fact any of you do want to install QA1 rod ends, we keep them in stock, for $30 each for the 12s (3/4") Plus we keep the aluminum 3/4" in stock.
We would be glad to sell them to anyone. We have been using QA1 for quite a while, and those with our suspension parts can vouch for the lack of noise.
LG
09-11-2003, 04:57 AM
#54
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Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! LG I have some of your adjustable lower control arms. On one of them the threads inside the LCA was stripped. What caused this to happen. Please e mail me at Evop141@msn.com Thanks
09-11-2003, 08:40 AM
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Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof!
Mike Patterson runs a Z28 in SCCA T2.
Basically a bone stock car ... almost ZERO modifications allowed.
He has to replace brake calipers, bushings, suspension parts regularly, many after each race weekend.
Basically a bone stock car ... almost ZERO modifications allowed.
He has to replace brake calipers, bushings, suspension parts regularly, many after each race weekend.
09-15-2003, 06:52 AM
#57
Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! Damn Mitch, you suspension abuser! 
Definitely looks like a fatigue failure, which would be caused by its life under your car as a track car (or a pothole warrior). That last turn probably just pushed it beyond yield, it wasn't that actual turn that created the damage.
I had excellent results with the LG components on my Formula. Very few 6-speeds at 3600 lbs cut 1.4s consistently like that car did. I abused the hell out of them
Tony
Definitely looks like a fatigue failure, which would be caused by its life under your car as a track car (or a pothole warrior). That last turn probably just pushed it beyond yield, it wasn't that actual turn that created the damage.
I had excellent results with the LG components on my Formula. Very few 6-speeds at 3600 lbs cut 1.4s consistently like that car did. I abused the hell out of them
Tony
09-15-2003, 05:54 PM
#59
Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof!
I hope BMr helps you out in some form.
I once bought a set of KVR brake rotors. They didn't crack, they freaking SPLIT! Actually, 98_1LE and I had the same thing happen at the same time.
I called the vendor who in turn called KVR.
They "graciously" offered to sell us new set at cost plus shipping. Basically a $20 savings.
If I had accepted their offer, I couldn't, in good conscience, warn someone about how brittle those rotors were.
Same principle applies here. And why would I even consider installing a KNOWN inferior grade product on my car, where I am running it up to 80, 90, 100mph? Not worth the chance ...
09-16-2003, 09:10 PM
#60
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Re: BMR stuff is crap ... now I have proof! Great. Now I'll worry every turn I take if my f'n BMR PHB is gonna break !!!
But, before we totally condemn BMR, shouldn't we see if this is an isolated occurance ? Maybe a new thread should be started asking who all has had one to fail.
My point is, it might not be a design flaw. Metal can be inconsistent. It could have had a microscopic crack in it that caused it to be weak , or maybe the metal itself was weak for some reason (and BMR does not make the steel they use). Maybe a poor weld. You see my point ? Just because one unit fails does not neccesarily mean they make a crappy product.
But, before we totally condemn BMR, shouldn't we see if this is an isolated occurance ? Maybe a new thread should be started asking who all has had one to fail.
My point is, it might not be a design flaw. Metal can be inconsistent. It could have had a microscopic crack in it that caused it to be weak , or maybe the metal itself was weak for some reason (and BMR does not make the steel they use). Maybe a poor weld. You see my point ? Just because one unit fails does not neccesarily mean they make a crappy product.