slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

i have a 2000 camaro 3.8L V6 for my DD, which won't start after replacing the crank sensor. i've done all the troubleshooting that I think I can do, and i'd really like to get a scan tool on it and see what the sensors are thinking.

does anyone in the area have a scan tool (one that has bi-directional capabilities so i can perform a crank relearn), and would either be willing to let me borrow it, or assist me with troubleshooting this car?

I am located in SW Dallas (Duncanville), and I work in uptown Dallas.

Dirty 30

iTrader: (96)

I can help you but until I get out of school around 9:45pm tonight.

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

thats fine. im eager to get this car up and running, as using my 3rd gen for a DD is a sub-optimal experience.

ill PM you my contact info.

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

looks like dirty30 got busy... anyone else in the area have a scantool or is willing to help me get this car running?

Dirty 30

iTrader: (96)

Sorry buddy, i got busy

5w20

iTrader: (21)

Check if their is fuel being pumped out at the rail

Check if there is spark at the coils/wires

Check timing

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

plenty of fuel. checked pressure at the rail, and i actually had to wipe off the spark plugs after a couple dozen times trying to start the car because they were just getting soaked.

i pulled the #1 wire and put an old plug on it and i have spark.

cant check timing... its a distributorless ignition, and timing is electronically set. unless you know something i dont know. i actually pondering hand cranking it to #1 TDC and pulling the fuses for the computer to 'reset' the timing... but i can find no literature that says that a timing reset procedure even exists. the only thing i can find is the crank relearn, which is recommended to do after replacing the crank sensor... but you have to start the car before you can perform it. i cant even get the car to start... it just cranks and cranks.

ramairracer

iTrader: (13)

igntion module under the coils is probably bad, pull al wire off one of the coil and crank it and watch to see if you have spark coming out of the coils

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Sounds like something other than the crank sensor is bad, when the crank sensor is bad the injectors and coils don't trigger, if yours is flooded and has spark then your getting signals to both. Try holding the gas down when trying to start it if its flooding.

Why did you change the crank sensor? You said "won't start after replacing the crank sensor" have you tried putting the other one back in to see if it will run with the other one?

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

i had the ICM tested at AZ and it was good. i even tried replacing it just for the F of it. that didnt do anything.

i changed the crank sensor because i had an issue with the car randomly stalling on me. it would usually start right back up, but one time it took 5 mins to get it started again. no check engine lights. from my research, the most likely culprits were crank sensor or ignition module. the ignition module tested good, so i replaced the crank sensor.

yes, i put the old one back in, thinking the new one was DOA, and it still woudlnt start. my next thought was then that i maybe yanked a wire on the sensor harness, but i went through a diagnostic procedure from ALLDATA, and i have voltage and grounds on the necessary pins of the crank sensor and ICM harnesses.

nowhere in ALLDATA nor any of the forums does it say anything about indexing the crank pulley before removal, just that its recommended to perform a crank relearn after changing that part... but the car needs to start before you can do that.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Hmmm well what the crap..

Well it sounds like you are getting signal from the crank since it is firing the injectors and coils.

The only reason you would need to mark the pulley is if the tone wheel was on the pulley, and if the tone wheel was on the pulley then the crank and pulley would be notched/indexed to make sure it could only go on one way.

I have a scanner but I don't know if it will initiate the crank relearn, you may have to have a tech II for that.


Have you tried starter fluid? Have you checked spark strength from each coil? Have you verified that each coil fires? Have you checked injector pulse? You said you checked fuel pressure right? Have you tried holding the pedal down while starting to clear the flood?


Did you make sure you didn't leave anything else unplugged during your diag?


Does your car have a VATS system? (the ignition key has the little pellet in it) If so you might look into that, if you have another key try it instead.

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

there is a reluctor ring on the pulley (they call it an interrupter ring), but there's no notches to line up the pulley and crank snout, so the pulley can go on any way. the ring doesnt appear to have any damage on it.

yes, tried starter fluid.... the TB ends up just spitting it out. and actually, the TB does 'spit' while trying to start the car... appears to just be air. dunno whats up with that. yes, tried holding the pedal down to clear the flood, and also took the plugs out at one point to dry them off.

checked resistance of the coils, and they were all approx the same. even if one coil was completely bad, the car can run on 4 cyls.

i checked fuel pressure at the rail, and its normal. dunno how to check injector pulse

the only things disconnected to do this job besides the crank sensor, was the IAT. i never even disconnected the starter, just rested it on the y-pipe while i was holding the pressure plate.

yes it has VATS... but if it was a VATS issue, it woudlnt even try to crank.

pretty much... i'm thinking its one of a few things:
1) needs the crank relearn (but i think it needs to start before you can do that)
2) interrupter ring maybe got whacked during removal isnt aligned perfectly, and its not synching properly... but i just cant imagine it being that sensitive.
3) computer fried from plugging and unplugging things
4) even though the voltages/grounds all check out on the harnesses, it might just be making a bad connection.

Sales2@Texas-speed

iTrader: (5)

Unplug your MAF sensor and see if she she'll start. Sounds similar to what my V6 Camaro and GTP's have done in the past.

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

just tried starting it without the MAF plugged in. nothing.

tried another shot of starting fluid... and actually had a FIREBALL shoot out of the TB. i had to blow the flames out in the intake... hopefully didnt melt my MAF.

5w20

iTrader: (21)

So you have 2 hamsters that turn the cam and crank at precise times? You either have a chain or a belt connecting both. You can check timing.


If you know you have fuel you shouldn't be spraying starting fluid in there. That's why you got that fireball, not too bright of an idea.

When is the last time you put gas? It could have bad gas. How good was the spark?




Check timing.

It could have bad gas.

check cam sensor.

slowredz

iTrader: (23)

On one of my LS1's I had a very similar problem. Would start most of the time. Sometimes took a minute or 2 or 5. Finally ended up not starting. Turned out to be that the ground on the back of the head wasn't making good contact. Put a new end and tightened it up and never had a problem again. Not sure that V6's have that ground, but worth a check.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

If it spits then something is out of timing, either the cam/crank are or the ignition. If you have a reluctor/tone/interrupter ring on the crank pulley it has to line up right or the computer has to learn which trigger is which cylinder. If you took the pulley off and randomly put it back on in a random spot, THAT is your problem. I no longer have access to Mitchell On Demand or ALLData to tell you what to do. But crank sensor rings have a special tab that is larger or smaller to indicate to the computer where #1 TDC is, if that is out of whack it definately is not going to start.

Read through the crank relearn procedure, you will probably find your answer in there.


I am willing to bet somewhere in the procedure you are probably supposed to put the #1 cyl at TDC and line up the crank pulley in some relative way.



Some VATS cars will fire and die when the system is armed, mine acted up one time a year or so ago for a split second and I cant remember if it would crank over and not fire or not crank at all, but I have seen quite a few GM cars that would fire and die. This obviously is not the problem with your car.


The spitting is because a valve is open when a cylinder is fired. The valve can be open when the cylinder is fired because the cam is off timing and opening the valve when it shouldn't or the spark plug is being fired when the valve is open because the wire is plugged to the wrong spark plug or the computer is firing the cylinder it thinks is closed but is not due to the crank sensor reading telling the computer that the crank is in a position it is not, and that would be due to the ring on the crank pulley being in the wrong position. This is also why it sent a big fireball your direction! Although I have dodged fireballs before on cars that weren't off timing, but being off timing makes it far far more likely to happen...

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

i got it started! 00pooterSS was right, it was the crank pulley alignment.

while the crank sensor replacement instructions in ALLDATA just says 'position balancer onto crankshaft', the instructions for replacing the crank pulley itself says to 'align key slot in balancer with key slot in crankshaft'.

the slot on the pulley is very obvious, but on the crank, the slot is deep inside, where you can even see it unless you get your head between the sway bar and radiator.

after re-installing, it started up immediatley, but now i got a weird knocking/ticking noise... it went away after i let the car run for about 2 mins and tapped the throttle a couple times. i hope it was just something flapping against a pulley and not a bent valve or broken rocker.

here's a video of that noise, just before it went away:

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

A lot of times after a car sits for a while that has hydraulic lifters they will bleed down oil just a little and make a tapping noise and go away quickly, that is possibly what was going on there, but that sounded worse than a lifter?? Who knows, it's hard to tell sometimes when the sound is recorded.

And if there are slots in the crank pulley and crankshaft there should be a keyway, or woodruff key, that aligns them, it sounds like your's is missing.

Your ignition timing is going to be slightly off until you put that keyway in there to make sure the pulley is exactly where it is supposed to be.

Here is a pic of a crank with the keyway in it, the slot in the pulley lines up with this..

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&tx=115&ty=108


This is the crank with the keyway (woodruff key pulled out) notice the curved side goes in the crank
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&tx=132&ty=106

Here is a keyway (woodruff key) notice on side is curved, it goes into the crank
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...0&tx=101&ty=94

slayer_taunu

iTrader: (3)

yeah i definitely do not have that key piece.

it appears as though different years/models have a different design too. that 1st pic shows the key at the edge of the snout. mine is totally smooth at the edge and the slot is down further, more like pic 2. i swore its in there deeper, but that might be an illusion because the front crank seal makes it hard to see in there...

and now that i think of it, maybe that ticking noise was that key piece bouncing around by the crank seal... and then got ejected when i revved the motor. who knows... all i care about is that the noise stopped and this car actually runs. i swear if it stalls out on me again after i replaced that sensor and went through all this, i will kill someone