RrCoX22

iTrader: (6)

Searched on here, CA DMV, and yahoo and really didn't come up with anything. Question is just for example: For say my car ('99 Z) if I was to swap a bigger cubed engine would this be illegal?

I understand the part of anything before 1975 you can swap away.

Also that anything above that year needs to have a the same year engine or newer. Along with all the emissions that came on that year and model.

So for say my "external" EGR.... would swapping a newer '01~'02 LS1 or newer LS6 engine be legal or not due to these having either an "internal" EGR or none at all?

Thanks for anyone who can clear this up for me

SSpeedracer

iTrader: (8)

There is no reason to waste your time with a referee to swap in a newer LS1. Just do it, block off or turn off the EGR and be done with it. Its the same friggin engine.

There is no internal EGR except for reversion. It is just "EGR".

Swap a LS6 and keep the EGR. Again block it off if you dont want to deal with it. Technically you are suppose to have it certified. However, you would be nuts to do that for 0.3 liters.

Be more specific with what you want to do.

Long Beach

iTrader: (51)

Im currious i was thinking about buying a 402 from tsp and wanted to know the same. Will it be illegal to put a bigger engine in my car. And what would i do about smog?

Ferocity02

iTrader: (60)

I think you can install a newer engine into an older car, but not the other way around. The engine you put in must be 100% stock from the factory. So, you can put in an LS2, LS6, or LS7 into your car and get it certified. You cannot put in a 402 and have it certified because it's a modified engine. Don't ask me how they would know. I don't know how they check the engine to make sure it's factory, part numbers maybe? You would have to contact a referee to get the nitty gritty details.

RrCoX22

iTrader: (6)

yes this is more of what i was asking...
no way in hell i would swap the LS1 out for an LS6... i was just using it as an example due to the different emmission provisions on the engines...

so your saying if it's a newer LS1 or LS6/LS7 it doesn't matter that they don't have EGR?

Long Beach

iTrader: (51)

That sucks, and the ls7 engine is expensive. Im going to look into it. There has to some kind of way. Maybe just dont say anything about new engine and hopefully it can be tunned to pass smog.

SSpeedracer

iTrader: (8)

The above posts are correct. Newer OEM engine, control, and emissions into an older vehicle is acceptable providing you have it inspected and certified by a referee. That includes catalytic convertor and OBDII control.

Very few, if any Smog Check facilities can tell the difference between a virgin LS1 and a modified LSx assuming a mild cam. (Referees have been known to take off covers and measure lift)

There are only two reasons to go that route:
1) Its the LAW.
2) 402 inches of displacement at the nose of a miata will draw attention.

The risks and ethics are up to you.


Example:
1976 Camaro with LSx swap.
By the letter of the law the vehicle must have the PCM and Catalytic Convertors out of the doner TA/GTO/Vette/CTV and no internal enginer modifications. Moreover, some referees interpret the requiremnts to mandate the doner exhaust manifold be used.

This would be a big hastle and a high risk that it wont pass the first time. However, emissions would be <2% compared to new in '76.

Instead, the doner LSx is converted to a carburetor setup with a bigger cam and passes under the radar. Still cleaner than before, but not as clean as EFI.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation is dependent on the engine. If you swap a newer LSx and certify, then no EGR is needed.

GR33N GoblinM6

iTrader: (14)

pfff... I swapped 305's for 355's, with vortec heads when I had my thirdgens.. the smog people are so dumb.. they cant physically tell the difference of the blocks.. As long you have all the STOCK EGR AIR hookups.. stock intake system, as well as your emission sticker in the engine bay... there is no way they will be able to tell you have a 402 with an LS6 intake.. just keep your factory cats and emission junk and you will be ok... and dont go too wild on the cam either..

now if you change to an LS2 with intake, some one might notice.. but they would have to know what to look for.. smog techs main concern is to look for any wires, vacuum lines, headers, air intakes, anything aftermarket.. and stock emissions stuff.. they arent looking at heads and blocks.. and no they wont pull block #'s

the CA rule to engine swaps, WITHOUT having to take your car to a smog reff is this:

you CAN NOT swap an older engine into a newer vehicle.. period

You CAN swap a new engine into a older vehicle, so long as the engine was offered in the same make, model and Generation and retain the newer engines emission and cat placement.

example: 1986 Camaro IROC.. only came in 5.0 with Mas air (TPI version).. the 1992 camaro had a 350 with speed density(TPI version).. you can legally swap this engine into the Iroc and NOT have to go to a ref, so long as you have the new emissions sticker in the engine bay, and the smog tech can verify this engine was legal in 1992 for make, model and generation.

Now if you were to swap and LS1 into a 1992 Camaro.. you would need to go to a ref because the generation has changed and was never offered.

so TECHNICALLY.. if you put an LS2 (with all its smog stuff and intake and all that) into a Camaro/Firebird.. yes you would need a smog ref because that motor was not offered in a 4thgen ever.

keep in mind.. when do, do a swap and you have to go to a ref.. they WILL check for the correct fuel tank, evap, placement of O2 sensors and stock cats(this is a big one)... block #'s intake #'s, fuel injector #'s, everything.

I know, because I have done and helped another person, swap 2 LSx swaps in different cars.. a 1993 RX7 and a 1989 Iroc. When you do pass the ref station, they will then issue a barcode, that will then be fixed to the inside of the driver door jam. So everytime you have to get a smog check, you must tell the tech to scan the bar code 1st then begin the test, because its then tested as the engine you swapped in, and not the car.

good luck

RrCoX22

iTrader: (6)

these two statements are condradicting.... what are you saying?

that240guy

iTrader: (3)

the first quote he is talking about a regular smog check. The second quote, he is talking about a referee.

Juiced

iTrader: (2)

Ask ss496 about trying to get a engine certified. they pulled his valve covers and checked the lift on his cam, then failed him when they told him it was larger than stock.

And this was in a old jeep (tj) if i remember correclty

RrCoX22

iTrader: (6)

ok thanks... so basically there is no way of getting around the ref with a bigger cubed engine

in theory...

if you went to a ref with for instance an LS7 in 4th gen F-Body and of course it passes due to it being a factory GM engine. So you get a code on on the door jam... etc...

then after seeing the ref you swap that LS7 out for say a "402, 408, 427" and then go to a smog check...

when they scan the code, is it specifically for that LS7 engine or will they not know and not give a **** about that different cubbed engine in there?

GR33N GoblinM6

iTrader: (14)

the bar code tells the tech to smog the engine (lets use your example) as an LS7.. if you swapped that out (dont know why you would go from 427 to 402) to the 402, it better smog just like a stock LS7 does.. and have the same emissions equipment, intake, cat placement (any smog tech looks for that), O2's, ect.

basically.. do it once.. do it right.. leave it alone..

and yeah I forgot about the cam specs.. they do check for that.. also.. they have the same computer equipment as, lets say HPTuners, to check for anything you have done in the computer.. such as turning off the trouble codes for EGR, AIR.. they look at the timing tables and fuel maps.. compair them to stock..

its not an easy process.. so like i said.. do it once... and do it right.. we passed the thirdgen off the 1st time... the RX7 passed the 2nd time.. due to the CATS being placed 4" too far back of the stock length... crazy

Long Beach

iTrader: (51)

Dam, thats a big hassle. I know it would be illegal to get my motor bored and stroked but how would that affect my smog? I would avoid the ref. but how bad woud my #'s varry from stock? And would it be possible to have it tunned on the lean side to hopefully pass smog?

RrCoX22

iTrader: (6)

so basically as i see it...

Angel Side
you can only swap out the LS1 or a newer LS1 or LS2, LS6, LS7 without having any problems and not have to use the car's emission components and only the engine's - get's stamped and good to go

Devil Side
you can swap out the LS1 and replace it with any stock like 402, 408, 427 and go to a "dumb" smog check station and pass with flying colors

GR33N GoblinM6

iTrader: (14)

Devil side... you need to retain the LS1/LS6 intake.. because the LS7 looks way different... LS2 you might get away with it.. make sure your cam is not tooo crazy.. tune it with HPtuners... retain your cats... you should be ok.. I have known 2 other people who have swapped the LS2 6.0 block (using an LS6 intake, 243 heads) and have passed pretty easily at a Test only station

danglerb

I don't think the stock thing is so sticky, read the engine change EO# database and you will find people like Callaway and GM received EO# for various modified engines going into earlier model cars. Specifically I was looking at dropping a ZZ4 into a Porsche 928, using the logic of ZZ4 is ok in a 87 camaro, so as long as I meet all the reqs for the 87 camaro it should be ok in a 86 or earlier 928.

Finding hard info on what really passes a Calif smog test though is ... hard.

EO: D-278-1 View PDF
EO Date: 10/29/1997
Manufacturer Name: GM Motorsports
Device: 5.7L H.O. Performance Package
Device Type: Engine Modification/ Engine Change
Part_Number: Model_Specification: Modification_Allowed: Remarks:
1982-1987 GM Camaros/ Firebirds originally equipped with 5.0L or 5.7L engines It includes the following main components: ZZ4 5.7L enigne (part no. 24502609) which includes a new camshaft, pistons, cylinder heads, intake and exhaust manifolds, an electronic control unit, new dual catalyst exhaust system, and transmission shift kit. It does not utilize the use of an EGR valve or the carburetor heat stove. Exhibit A list additional parts included with the kit

ss496

iTrader: (7)

you just have to use the egr equipment used on the 01-02 engine, take it to a referee, and he will give you a barcode and stick it somewhere on the driver side of the interior. then when you take it to get it smogged the place can scan the barcode and they will know what to look for.

Or you can just take it to get it smogged after the swap and hope they dont notice. if they dont you saved yourself a lot of hassle. If they do notice then you gotta do what you gotta do.

Or you can get an illigal smog

ss496

iTrader: (7)

check your thread in the conversions section

RrCoX22

iTrader: (6)

gonna bring this thread back up...

far as swapping "LSX" engines into non-powered "LSX" vehicles what are the guidelines and restrictions for this swap?

...is it the same as a newer manufactured engine into a later model car type thing, as long as it meets all the emissions, pcm, etc. requirements?

for instance all these LS1 rx7 guys in CA running "legal" swaps after seeing a ref.... so it's allowed?