Firebrian

The GMMG cars have intrigued me for a while. If I don't upgrade to one of those I'll probably go after a 2001-2002 Firewawk or WS6 vert....maybe even an automatic this time around. I only have room for one toy. So the SS has to go if I get something else. No hurry though. I tend to under-price any cars I've owned due to being "blinded" by their minor shortcomings. One of the reasons I bought this car was because I didn't think it could depreciate all that much more if the mileage were kept low. I didn't see how a <20,000 miles, one or two owner, and well documented SS or WS6 could ever be worth <$10K. 90-95% of the SS's on Ebay don't sell so it's not that easy to gauge real-world prices. And the "ask" or "bin" prices are usually absurd.

My '99 SS was bought from the original owner 2 years ago when it had 12K miles....now at 15,500. It's close to 100% factory as you can get for a car that has been driven rountinely. Only changes are the factory air lid being changed to a high flow aftermarket one and a Hurst short throw shifter. I retain both of the factory original parts in new condition. I have all orig documents except the factory build sheet. The orig owner kept nearly all the paperwork from day 1 (window sticker, SLP options sticker, orig title, loan agreement with his trade in, odometer statements, 1st temp registration, etc.). He didn't however keep track of the routine services that were done (ie fluid changes). I can only assume he did most or all of those on his own in his garage. The low mileage wouldn't have required much of anything else. One shock was replaced under factory warranty and a wheel alignment was done in 2011. Orig date coded 1998 tires still have about 50% tread with no dry rot showing. Car was always garaged and not driven in rain or snow. The underside shows that. As soon as I got the car I changed the oil, coolant, trans, clutch, ps, and diff fluids to start fresh. Oil has been changed twice a year regardless of miles - Mobil 1.

Options are red, M6, TTops, cloth interior, SLP 3" perf exhaust (327 hp) + Auburn differential, SS floor mats, single disk CD, rear "SS" mat with serial #, key fobs. Car is located in Connecticut. When I asked the owner why he ordered the car w/o leather he said his preference was to get the performance options. He would have liked to have gotten the Bilstein as well but couldn't see spending over $1,000 for it. Same comment with the leather seats and chrome wheels. He was not a fan of leather seats as they tend to get hot in the summer time. And we all know how those chrome wheels love to corrode.

So what's this car worth wholesale/retail today? $12K privately would be my guess. $9K to $10K wholesale/trade-in? Other estimates welcome. It's not a rare SS by any means and not the most popular year. The negative things on the car is the passenger window operating a bit slow, a couple minute stone chips on the front of the car and windshield, and a couple of tiny scuffs on the stock painted wheels. It has typical hairline swirls in the paint like probably every car has from waxing and washing. The original owner told me that he picked up the car on the day it came off the delivery carrier to ensure that the dealer prep guys didn't get a chance to put a buffing wheel to the car's new finish and put swirls in it. The AC system was leaking when I got the car and I ended up installing a new Delphi compressor, HP and LP lines + receiver/drier/exp valve. The downsides of buying a car in the winter! But, that's $800 the next guy won't have to spend on AC fixes. Everything (but tires 5/10) on the car is probably 9 out of 10. No paint bubbles on the roof sail panel or anywhere else. No dents or dings anywhere. The car has not been left out in the sun to bake for any appreciable time in its life. I make it a point to park in the shade or keep the car moving on the days it is being used. Car comes out 1X to 2X a week in nice weather and at least once a month in winter when the roads are clear and dry for a min of 12 mile runs.

Thanks

FB

Firebrian

Found this link showing '99 Camaro's sold over the past 18 months. There are fairly recent sales of low mileage '99 SS's in the $12K-$12.5K range. A very strong $19K price for one with 4K miles back in Dec 2012. That's a lot of money for a '99 SS....assuming the sale went through.

http://usedcarsfsbo.com/asp/UsedCars...t&model=Camaro

jamin

sounds to me like you are sitting on a 14k SS, not sure where you are getting the 12k numbers, also those are probably not as well documented, and the sellers are really looking to sell, for every 1 of those deals there are guys like you,

a few years ago I picked up my 96 WS6 with 15k from the org owner in my backyard for 8500 it was white auto and cloth, car was immaculant and 100% documented, 65 yr old owner, I knew the car was worth 10 or so, after 1 1/2 years I bought a new boat and had to sell, got 11.5 for it, (19k)
So this year I was able to go shopping again, and odly enough I found a 97 WS6 with 18k in white, but it is a M6, leather, and the polished wheels instead of the 96 grey ws6 rims, I had to anty up for it,

As Ive said before its a matter of who is looking, when, and where it was my fav color combo 20 minutes away and a M6, I paid about 1k to much for it, but it is what it is, I can honestly say I feel if not for me he would still have it or had to drop his price,

Firebrian

The $12K figure comes from what I've seen for completed Ebay sales where the car doesn't come back again. In general, maybe only 1 out of 10 to 1 out of 20 Ebay cars actually sell. While "sold" cars "exactly" like mine might only show up a few times a year....there is no shortage of "comparable" cars on Ebay and Autotrader to get price references. I use a couple simple thumb rules to ensure plenty of cars to compare against....especially the often seen 2002's of which they made plenty of SS's and WS6's.

Using $1,000 per model year adjustment on average, I can compare against any 1998-2002 car. I can compare against typical WS6's as well using a $1500 adjustment ($1K to $2K range). For mileage on clean cars in the 10K to 50K mile range I adjust by $1,000 per 10,000 miles. After all that, a final adjustment for additional important options (or lack of them). I find that about 50% of the value of factory options applies. For instance the $4K price tag on a Firehawk is worth $2K to me today. That $4K SLP invoice on an SS might be worth +$2K over a stock SS without any SLP additional options. Figure $1K to $2K additional for convertibles. Then for each person your own adjustment for things like condition flaws, # of owners, modifications, documentation, etc. Be careful of KBB and NADA valuations because as a rule they give almost no additional value on '98-'02 LS-1 Camaro or Firebirds for miles under 50,000-60,000....which is ludicrous. To them a 15,000 mile car is worth almost the same number as a 50,000 mile car. The price difference between an "excellent" car and the next step down doesn't come close to closing that gap. While car dealers are happy to buy those "free" miles on your car, they usually charge for them when selling. I watch Ebay SS's and WS6's that sell for a reasonable number. And for the most part they hit the sweet spot using these thumb rules. The car was eventually repainted and probably the driver's seat redone. To most people seeing that "fresher" car today they wouldn't at first think it was beat to all heck. CarFaxes only show what work was reported.

A very solid 2002 WS6 with 35,000 miles at $14K is one of the anchor points I used last year. But, based on seen condition that car could range from $12K (beat up) to $16K (mint pristine ). As a rule, you won't find 35K mile SS's and WS6's beat up or superbly pristine. They were generally well cared for but still driven a lot. Though I must admit I did see a 32,000 mile 2001 WS6 2 years ago that was beat to all heck. The owner was a big and heavy farmer who drove the car in the mud all over the family farm. The underside was caked with pounds of dried mud everywhere. The car was left out in the weather a lot because the paint was bubbling and failing everywhere (hood, roof, hatch back, spoiler). One quarter panel was already repainted and flaking again. 1/2" chunks of the rear spoiler were missing. The driver's seat was compressed flat and had numerous rips. Best of all though, in the first 15,000 miles/3yrs that car had service work for engine rod bearings, shifter and clutch, brakes (twice), full exhaust, and a load of other mechanical issues like side mirrors, door regulators, etc. And 50% of these issues were not on the CarFax. I had to contact GM service directly to find the "other" 50%. I have to wonder if this owner had cold start piston slap and convinced GM to take it apart under warranty? 2 brake jobs in 15,000 miles? Without looking at the odometer you'd have sworn this was a 132,000 mile car and not 32,000 miles. How many 32,000 mile 1 owner cars have a filthy driver's carpet with rips under the pedals and heavily scuffed sill plates and inner lower doors panels? I could have bought the car for $10K as an "all-weather" "low miles" beater to drive the tires off it. On my test drive the car pulled massively to the right upon braking and at over 50 mph the heavily worn front right tire rumbled from a flat spot (soon to blow if driven much more). Yeah, low mileage cream puff lovingly driven by its original owner...lol. It was just too beat for me to take a risk on it. For someone not having personally experienced that car, they'd have thought a "nice" 1 owner, 32,000 mile WS6 for $10K from a dealer was buyable.

In short, I've seen "sales" of low mileage 99 SS's in the $11K to $13K range on Ebay and Autotrader. The ask prices were reasonable and they didn't appear again. I assume they sold. That link above shows a '99 SS with 4K miles getting $19K. Bully for them. I don't see that car being worth $15K on a good day....but someone did. You can certainly find a 4K mile 2002 SS out there for $19K today....probably even a 2002 WS6. I know what I paid for my car 2 years ago when it was advertised nationally (in the dead of winter). It wasn't like I was buying from an uninformed seller. Guess, I have a hard time understanding how it could have gained in value ($14K) while most other SS's have depreciated further. It may be true that I'm under-estimating my own car. Wouldn't be the first time either. But, all I can go buy is what cars have really sold for (ie guys that have to sell). The other 90-95% tend are looking for numbers that we all dream about getting. For now, it seems like the 5-10% of cars that do sell when they pop up on the market are enough to keep the supply/demand in balance.

jamin

Well thats a well thought out formula, I tend to keep it simpliar lol, I had a a opportunity to grab a 99 blck SS with miles in the teens don't recall exactly, he wanted 13 it was black so I passed, plus I'm a T/A guy, I firmly believe you car is worth 14 based on what you said, Ebay can be a useful reference but there is alotta he said she said on there if I were u and did not have to sell I's start around 14-14.5 and go from there with very nice pictures, u may be suprised,

I really wanted a LS1 Ws6 this time around, last year I was looking at 30-40k cars selling for 10/12k, this year the same cars are closer to 13/14 so something is happening, if it has anything more then exhaust for mods, the values go kerplunk

NC01TA

Ebay is not the best guide for real world pricing. Between shill bidders and problem cars how could anyone seriously gauge real market value? Sure, it's a somewhat useful tool (as is everything) in the 'big picture' but I wouldn't consider it at more than 15 - 20% of that picture, not for a car like yours.
I agree with jamin and believe you are seriously underpricing your car unless you need to sell in a hurry. You have made no mention of the premiums involved with ultra low mileage cars. They are real and people do pay. Your SS has minor mods which do not affect this premium too much, although it can't command the same as a completely unmolested 1 owner example. Yes, the tires are a negative (and shouldn't be driven at highway speeds after 16 years) but $800 for a decent set of tires still won't bring you down into the $12k neighborhood. I would price the SS at $15,000 and try to get $14,000 after negotiations. If you personally like ebay, give it a whirl, but this car belongs in Hemmings for serious car buyers, or at least Autotrader.
The average 1999 Camaro SS auction price (not dealer auctions) is approximately $10,500 over the past few years. That includes much higher mileage cars, multiple owner cars, and cars that 'need things'. No way can you consider your car in that price class if you described it accurately. As I mentioned earlier, if you are in a hurry and can't wait, then that will change things. Patience is key. There aren't buyers jumping out of the woodwork trying to buy our F-bodies. They are out there though if you can be patient.
Best of luck!!

Firebrian

I appreciate Jamin and NCO1TA views on this. Thanks a ton. Probably a good thing that I don't fall back to my own biases of which there are plenty. I only use those thumb rules to get me in the ball park. In the end, like you, it comes down to how the overall car strikes me at the price it's buyable at.

On a car with many additional features it helps to use the thumb rules. On cars with say under under 5,000 or 1,000 miles, the mileage rules can be tossed out the window. And certainly how those miles went on matter (highway or stop light to stop light). I realize that over 95% of the cars on Ebay have issues. I try to focus on the other 5%, especially motivated sellers. Fwiw the seller of my car was motivated to sell. He picked the least amount he would take for the car and went from there. Most other sellers start from top and take months or years to get whittled down. Pictures are helpful but I've been smoked a few times over the years by them. They can never show all the flaws in a car or help you experience driving it. If you ask the seller to describe 10 or even 50 flaws/discrepancy/wear items on their car and they can't come up with any, then you know they wear rose-colored glasses or just aren't very critical in their approach. One guy I bought a car long distance from via video said I couldn't spend $2,000 in "flaws" on their car it was so perfect (it was a '69 RR convertible). When the car came off the car carrier I was surprised. When my list was done I had 150 items on my "flaws" list. I had that car for 5 years and spent $6,000 in that time fixing 100 of them. The other 50 would have taken a full restoration on a weak #2 car requiring another $20,000-$30,000. I won a ton of trophies with that car, even with the 50 flaws remaining.

I have to wonder about the simple mods that can be put back to 100% factory original in just a couple of hours (air intake and shifter). There's not anyone that could tell the difference. And would there really be a difference? That air intake has to come off anyways to do maintenance to the front engine area, even on low mile cars where something just fails out of the blue. Would those cars be any less "molested" to buyers knowing engine bay parts were removed for access? On GMMG cars, much of the engine bay parts were removed for their mods.

If the 99 SS's offered a black wing lid or a Hurst shifter the orig owner would have ordered them. He was aware that the WS6's could get a Hurst but told me that option was not available when he ordered the SS. And it seems to me he'd have done that rather than ordering the shifter himself (still have the shipping box) and having to swap it out. I also think I've seen those Hurst shifters on other early SS's so I'm not convinced that you couldn't get them on day 1 delivery. I've toyed with the idea of putting those orig parts back on but losing performance doesn't make sense to me, especially that larger, clunkier factory shifter and an air-inhibiting intake.

I don't drive the car on the highway much because of both the tires and the potential of picking up rocks. I know that just on the 50 mile drive home after buying the car that I picked up a couple hood flecks that were fresh (the advantages of owning a white car - they don't show). I've left the orig tires on the car because they are still serviceable and if there is a next owner, they can see them still on the car to get a feel for how it was driven for those 15,000 miles. I've owned a number of original paint and drive train 1960's muscle cars with orig spare tires. You'd be surprised at the nice condition of some of those 40+ year old tires. Having driven a 95% original 1969 Super Bee for a few years in the later 1990's I have a healthy respect for how well 30 year old mechanical parts/seals/gaskets/rubbers can hold up (tires were new though).

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=47274&endYear=2002&modelC ode1=CAM&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&modelCode2=FBIRD&m akeCode2=PONT&showcaseOwnerId=4672542&startYear=19 98&makeCode1=CHEV&maxMileage=45000&searchRadius=20 0&mmt=[CHEV[CAM[]][]PONT[FBIRD[]][]]&listingId=369435788&Log=0

Not a bad looking 1-owner '98 SS for $7900 and 33K miles.

NC01TA

The link shows the car at $10,000. Still a good deal at first glance anyway.
I agree with your thinking about switching the parts back to stock. Leave that up to the new owner. The important thing is that you have them still. Same with the tires. If you put on 'xxx' brand the buyer may not like those. Let the new owner buy what he wants. I'm certainly that way about tires. If I see some mongrels on there I am going to take them right off. I'm very particular about tire brands.
I like to hear about your pickiness on cars. True car show fanatics are that way. Yours truly included. Far too many sellers have no clue what a show car is. We have all run into those sellers. "Oh my car is excellent, doesn't need a thing." That's why I have never bought a car 'sight unseen' and I have saved big $$ by sticking to that thought process. It isn't the sellers fault in many instances as they honestly don't know. My car collector neighbor and I went to Lexington, KY a few years back which is 5 hour drive for us. After many phone calls and photos we went up to buy the car. Thank heavens we went. The scuffs and scratches, although slight, were very evident all over the car and not showing up in the photos or owner's conversations. Same with wheel rash and wear on the driver's seat. Other issues were evident too. We told the seller we weren't interested in the car and he started lowering the price. We didn't want the price lowered. We wanted the car that was represented to us. He had no clue that we did NOT want the car at this point. It needed too much work. We left him with his jaw dropped. He just didn't get it. We weren't going to buy a car that needed the wheels refinished, the leather seat redone and probably a paint job. We never even drove it. That's life for serious car people.

Firebrian

That dealer must have changed the price because it was definitely $7900 when I had it posted yesterday. They probably got a lot of calls on it and figured out real quick they had it mis-priced....typo or otherwise. It would have been too cheap at the price unless the paint was a mess.

I've been fussy for most of my collector car years (1992-on). And it only got worse with the more cars I called on and went to see. Way too many boondoggles from 200-700 miles away to see vastly over-priced cars. I'd say of every 10 cars I called on after pre-screening them via the ads, only 1 out of 10 was worth the trip after a phone call. And for every 10 cars I drove to see, maybe I bought one or two. Out of approx 100 cars I may have gone to see, I can only recall a couple that were every bit as nice as the seller described...I bought them both. I've tried over the years to get information out of sellers over the phone so I can be sure we're talking the same language of "condition." But, it rarely has worked. And that's probably the case with most buyers and sellers. When selling my high end "driver" 1970 Coronet R/T vert a few years back no one would come to see it based on how brutally I described all the "flaws." The car was a strong #3 "driver" to me at that time. Today I know it was a strong #2 and I've rarely seen one nicer. The only guy that came to see it was astounded as he called it a #1, better than any he'd ever seen. He couldn't get out the $21K fast enough. In hindsight, that was a spectacular car condition-wise. But, I got caught up with a lot of the detailing nits that I couldn't easily fix. It also didn't drive as nice as I expected and that was the major reason I sold it. It felt "klunky" to me in both the suspension and trans shift points. They can look pretty, but they need to drive just as good as they look.

My worst ever trip was a local one (thank heavens) only 90 min away. It was a '64 Dodge convertible supposedly in #1 condition, fully restored all around so that the owner's daughter would have a safe and neat car for college. But, she ended up not using it. Imagine my surprise when I saw a rusted pile of junk in their yard when I first got there. I asked, "where's the car?" And the owner pointed to that pile of junk. There wasn't a rot-free or pit-free surface on any part of the body, trim, or chrome. The car was at best a #5 and possibly worse. The top was all ripped open and the car had been sitting in the elements for probably years. They had been asking $10K and I wouldn't have given them $1K for it. The owner had no clue why I didn't love it or make an offer on it. Not one square inch of the paint had any shine left. The steering wheel was fully pitted...first time I'd ever seen that on a "restored" car. What a complete mess. I probably have another dozen stories nearly as hideous as that one. At least with these '98-'02 model cars, they haven't had the 30-40 years to deteriorate and get molested as much as the classic muscle cars.

My trip to Montreal to see a "restored" '68 GTX convertible for $18K wasn't as bad as the Dodge, but close. At least on that one I had seen pics of the restoration so I know something positive was done to it. That was a long 7 hour drive ending in extreme disappointment. The owner's "perfect" car looked like a 7th grade auto shop class restored it over a weekend. The paint had so many waves in it that it looked like staring into fun house mirrors. When you pulled the carpet or trunk mat you saw the rough painted sand paper effect. I could have offered $12K for it but why bother? It needed another paint job and who knows what they did or didn't do to the drive train? Another time I traveled to Brewster, NY to see a '69 GTX vert that was described as all "#'s matching"...it didn't even have a VIN or fender tag on the car. It was previously stolen and had a state issued VIN/ID. The seller was the owner of a car dealership no less. And to his standards, it was a correct #'s car....lol. That engine had so much grease on it you couldn't see any of the stampings, let alone the engine VIN #. And he claimed to have recently seen it. I've seen it all over the past 20+ years. I don't put anything past sellers. And the 2 times I had cars shipped to me from long distance based on photos/videos/phone descriptions they fell short. While I didn't get royally screwed on either, I'd have not bought either car had I seen them in person. One time I paid $250 for a 3rd party consult on a really nice orig paint, low miles '70 RR convertible. My offer was accepted but the seller changed their mind and raised the price....told me there were new bidders now. I told him to pound sand. I now won't do a 3rd party inspection unless the car can be removed from the seller's clutches once a deal is struck and I KNOW that the 3rd party is as fussy as me.

NC01TA

The dealer probably had a typo. $7900 would have been really cheap.
You have described everything in our world to a 'T'. I started my 'show' life back in the 1980's, just a tad longer than you.
Best of luck with your sale!