y2k600f4

I think I pretty much got a good idea of "what it's worth" based on some good previous post but based on a 01-02 car.

Anyway this is listed on ebay:

99 WS6 blk/blk 2400 miles 1-2 owner car

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171339819771?forcerRptr=true&item=171339819771&frommaketrack=true&viewitem=
Interested in other's opinions. Thanks.

y2k600f4

Forgot to add....only options are traction control (does not have hurst shifter or 12 disc).

NC01TA

Wow!! A well written ad on ebay. It's a miracle!! Actually the seller is wrong about the tires though. 15 year old tires MUST BE REPLACED unless putting the car away into a collection.
If accurately described I'd be all over this car if the reserve was $17k, maybe $18k if I absolutely loved it. $19,500 plus $800 for a decent set of tires plus transportation (at least $1,000 depending where you live) plus tax, title, tag (over $500 in NC anyway) is a little rich for me personally as it would bring the price up to nearly $22,000.
In all seriousness, and I know this isn't possible for 98% of those reading these posts, if it was me and I really wanted the car bad, I would talk extensively with the seller on the phone asking every detail imaginable, and setting up a real cash (certified bank check) price. A Carfax would be mandatory as well. If everything checked out and a price agreed upon, I'd be flying out to Utah to get the car and drive it home. A $500 plane ticket, gas, motels, and fast food would equal that same $1,000 or so in transporting the car home. This is done just in case. If the car was misrepresented (not likely) you certainly cut your losses, be glad you didn't lay out $17k (or whatever) and catch the next flight home.
It's always a gamble to buy sight unseen but this might be one of those exceptions.
If the seller won't budge on price or wants the auction to run it's course, then that is up to each individual whether to proceed further. The 'reserve' is the key.

*** I'd like to add one thing that is purely an individual's own choice and many times I don't equate this factor into pricing. Sometimes a person 'must have' a certain combination of things in a car. When I bought my T/A new I wasn't going to own anything but a tan top, red body 'vert. I made sure I bought one. No settling. I also didn't get a real good discount but it doesn't make one bit of difference so many years later. If I paid $2,000 too much way back, then it averages out to peanuts as a yearly average. To 'round things' off, in 10 years that extra $2,000 is $200 per year. So what. I've owned the car I always wanted for $200 per year. The same ideology could hold true for this WS6. If you always dreamed of a 'new' black 6 speed WS6 here is the opportunity right in front of you. If you paid the Buy It Now price of $19,500 (plus all the other stuff I talked about) and kept the car 10 years the difference is meaningless if you paid $17k or $19,500. To let it slip away would be a mistake. There aren't many 'new' 6 speed WS6 cars floating around anymore. The seller isn't asking $25,000. He is in reasonable price territory if this is a 'must have' car.

judgeman6970

Taxes, transportation, etc will be a part of any purchase most likely, but imo, the car is worth $18-20k to the right buyer. Personally, I try to avoid black cars, but if you're looking for a black LOW-MILE 6-spd LS1 WS6 Trans Am, its worth what you're willing to pay...

y2k600f4

I was not looking at black cars but this one caught my eye due to ultra low miles and it being a M6. BIN price is a little steep for me especially with all the "extras" as NC01TA mentioned. And yes the ad was well written (actually sent the poster a message with a compliment). I agree 17K might be a good price....however a 1800 mile drive is a little far for me; maybe if I was a bit youger but then again I would not have the $ :-)

hardbones

$18K would be solid purchase price but I would trailer it home, cant trust tires that are probably pushing 15 years old.

Nice to see more of these cars coming out of the woodwork!

Firebrian

The '99's don't get the same respect as the '01-'02 cars, even if the '99 is often times much "rarer." It may have ultra low miles at 2400 but it still doesn't have the draw of the later years where factory improvements were made. I've seen a pair of 2002 1LE firehawks + all SLP options with between 5K to 10K miles reach the $23K to $24K level. I have to figure the Firehawk + 3 model years difference is worth an easy $5K+ more than a '99 WS6. I don't see a huge difference between 2400, 5,000, or 8,000 miles. It's really more on the condition of each car. A 10K miles car could be in just as good a shape as 2400 mile car, possibly even better. 2-1/2 years ago one of my local dealers had a 1 owner 2000 black WS6 six speed with 14K miles. They were asking $16,800 but I was trying to get it for $15,500-$16,000. We couldn't agree on a price. It took them a year to sell it and I don't know what they actually got for it. I discounted accordingly for the fact that there was zero info on the previous owner who had passed away (estate car). There were no documents or history of any kind. The car was mint though with a few minute surfaces scratches and a dozen or so of the tiniest stone flecks. The passenger window was a tad slow to operate too. There are always things wrong with these cars if they've been driven thousands of miles.

The seller lists the car in the auction as 1 owner. I guess they don't count themselves...lol. It will be a 3 owner car to the next guy. I can appreciate the miles being too low for the current owner. I've been in that same situation myself a few times. Rather than be into this car at $19K and being afraid to devalue it, you can pickup a 2002 WS6 with say 35K-40K miles for around $14K....and be able to drive the pants off the car.

The seller says the interior is flawless and "just like" a new car in 1999. If that's the case I guess these got delivered with cracks in the door panels (passenger side is cracked). They also say they can't find a single paint flaw or chip. I suggest they spend another hour or so going over their own car and finding the flaws as that is critical for anyone paying big dollars for a mint specimen. Yes. Find all the paint swirls, chips in the paint/glass/light covers, any stains in carpets and leather, any scratches or scuffs on the interior plastic panels, dates of last fluid changes, etc. Frankly, if an owner cannot honestly find flaws with their 15 year old car with 2400 miles, they haven't looked close enough or prefer not to reveal them. This owner could not recall a single flaw from memory.....not one. Imagine flying out 2,000 miles and finding a dozen or two "minor flaws" that this owner didn't think were of any concern? Is the AC 100%? I'd be more worried about a car that sat and sat for 15 years developing the potential for seal leaks, esp. in the AC system. If there isn't a leak today....good chance there will be one soon down the road.

I get concerned when the seller saying the car was "frequently started" over the years. Unless that car was driven 6-12 miles on each of those starts, that's probably one of the worst things you can do mechanically for the car. If the orig owner drove the car once per month at 14 miles average then fine. For someone who is intent on keeping this black car mint, why the heck is the car photographed near a train on a dirt road filled with rocks? How stupid is that? There's also the issue of metallic rail dust finding its way onto the car's paint. The original owner kept this in a climate controlled garage on a lift and you're driving it through rail yards? Ok, whatever makes a good photo op. Have the coolant and trans fluid ever been changed? Don't take it for granted. Some owners think that low miles trump 15 years of sitting. On the surface, the ad is "well written." But, there are some potential holes in it. There's a lot unsaid imo.

$17K would be a great price. But it's still no "investment" car. It's a 1999 with no options of note. I can think of plenty of WS6's, SS's, and Firehawks that I would consider "investment" cars. Even with 2400 miles this one doesn't make it to my list. If it were a convertible, the popular white/blue anniversary car, a rare color, a 1LE, or owned by a Pontiac executive who spearheaded the WS6 program back in the day, etc......then sure. Black cars are undoubtedly cool and sinister....they just aren't rare. Any color but red or black would be scarce....like NBM which is 7.6X scarcer than black. I agree the miles are so low the car is better left to someone who just won't drive it much. No doubt there are relatively few base 1999 WS6 coupes left with this low a mileage (there are however plenty of '99 Anniversary cars with ultra low miles....but those are different animals from a collectible standpoint). I'd love to own this car too, just not at $19K+. For that kind of money there are other great choices out there.

y2k600f4

Thanks for pointing that out. Did not look at all the pics that closely.


Good point on possible issues, these are no doubt risks on all low mileage cars. I wonder if Harbone's 00 w/538 miles has shown any of these potential issues ? Just curious. I am not on the search for an investment grade car personally (just want something to drive; won't be daily driver)....low mileage cars probabaly not the best fit for me. Thanks for posting.

Firebrian

Hardbone no doubt got a close look at that 538 mile car before taking the plunge. And I have a feeling they didn't pay as much as this guy with the '99 is asking. These cars are pretty resilient and most owners who put them away with ultra-low miles for safe-keeping took the proper steps. But, you still have to due your due diligence. Age is age and it doesn't matter if the car has low miles or medium miles. The things that can age regardless of miles have to be considered. I prefer a car in the 10K to 25K mile range knowing it was likely driven enough to keep everything mechanical lubricated and working. And the cars in the 10K to 40K mile range tend to be undervalued in the car price guides for those lower miles.

Reading the Ebay auction again it's more hyperbole and puffery than anything else. If the orig owner truly wanted an "investment" car, they blew it. Those 2200 miles cost over $10,000 or >1/3 of the car's original purchase price. A black WS6 with dark interior is probably not the "best" color combination...it certainly isn't the most expensive to buy. They state that no '99 WS6 could have received better care than this car. I would suspect there are dozens or even hundreds of 1999 WS6 and FH's that have been cared for better than this particular car, especially the anniversary models. Do they really think there is little difference between a brand new 1999 WS6 back on the showroom floor in 1999 and this car 15 years later? Look at the underside of any new Camaro, Challenger, Vette, or Mustang at a dealership and compare it to the underside (or interior) of this 1999.

I wish the seller spent more time objectively describing flaws on the car than subjectively telling us what a perfect addition and investment it would be to anyone's collection. How about some information on what routine maintenance items were performed on the car in 15 years (ie fluid and filter changes for one)? I get the impression this is the first WS6 (or LS-1) car they've owned. I have no doubt if I offered them $17,000 for their car (plus $100 for every flaw they could find) they'd come up with a few dozen of them. One tried and true method to finding flaws on any car is to wash, wax, and detail it. That's often the first time most people run into all the flaws they missed when they first bought a used car. If this seller did that maybe they'd find that passenger door panel crack in the process. What we do know about this 2400 mile car: it was driven on dirt/rock road(s), it was started frequently, the orig owner bought it for an investment, it has door panel crack(s) and original tires, 2 owners, and it was the "dream car" for the current owner. Other than that, we know very little about IT.

y2k600f4

Good Good

y2k600f4

Sorry about that. Appears you can't edit posts in this section ?

Anyway good points. Regardless whoever buys this one will no doubtedly have to pay close to the BIN price. It was previously listed May 7 $18700...reserve not met.

Firebrian

You can delete an entire post by selecting "edit," and then "go advanced." I just tried it. Works fine.

I was curious as to what the car price guides listed this car at for private retail sale (excellent condition/top 3%).

KBB - $10,333 (I kid you not....and that's with 2400 miles. Plug in 50,000 miles and you'll probably get nearly the same number).
NADA - $13,200 for a WS6 car in excellent condition (this was the classic car section and had no allowance for selecting the mileage)
NADA - $10,600 for a WS6 with 2400 miles.

http://www.vmrintl.com/used-car/pric...RANS%20AM.html

That last one's a hoot. They give you an extra $800 going from 150,000 miles to under 10,000 miles. They subtract for a 6 speed and give you $250 for the WS6 option! And you can get the ram air package even cheaper if you buy the 30th anniversary model (those are all ram air). So where's my <10K miles 1999 30th anniversary Trams Am convertible for $10,075?

You'd love being a dealer when you can quote those kinds of prices. Though dealer trade-in values are another 10-15% lower than those...lol.
Where do I sign up?

hardbones

I had time to spend with my car before I bought it, first visit was almost 2 hours between inspecting the car and talking (having a few beers) with the owner. I then went home and researched the car since I had never owned a 4th Gen. I went back the second time with a stack of cash and more knowledge of the car. I spent another 2 hours with the car and owner before we came to an agreement.
My dash isn't cracked and neither are my door panels. The rotors had high spots from the brake pads since the owner had broke his hip 2 years before and couldn't drive a manual trans and she just sat. I knew that the tires were original and even though in great condition I still replaced the wheels and tires last March. My original owner had drove the car 20-40 miles a year, didn't just start it and let it run but actually took it around town and up to highway speeds. He had all the fluids changed in 2010. Paint needed some love since he had never waxed it but no major flaws or damage.

I did not pay anywhere near what this guy is asking but I also think that I got really lucky, right place at the right time with a stack of cash to buy an all original, one owner and incredibly low mile Trans Am

It might be worth the time to find someone to put the eyes and hands on the car for you, car inspection company or maybe someone off the forum that lives in that area.

Good luck!

98CayenneT/A

How many miles you have on that car now hardbones?

Firebrian

Hardbones, thanks for some real life info on your car. It's nice to here what reality is and that good/realistic deals are out there....though hard to come by for sure. I don't think the owner of this '99 WS6 paid anywhere near $19,500 for their car either. They had to know going in that buying such a low mileage car would result in being hesitant to add miles to it. With the money they make flipping this car, it will make their next driver all that more affordable....less the Utah sales tax already paid.

hardbones

As of yesterday 2258 and climbing
No mechanical issues, car still has its original spark plugs, belts and hoses. Only thing under the hood not stock is the SLP lid and a newer battery.

NC01TA

Price guides for ultra low mileage cars are meaningless. They always have been. However, it isn't their fault, even though a disclaimer would be nice about premiums for low mileage cars. They can't possibly monitor the few actual sales that occur and what these transactions actually conclude for. That's why low mileage cars have these unseen premiums attached. When into the car show and classic car scene you know these premiums are very real. I'm glad everyone posting here knows about these. In the past I have heard arguments from owners (usually young ones) saying they would never pay a premium for an F-body. Maybe that's why they drive one with 120,000 miles on the odometer. Live and learn. If you want one of the sweet ones, you will pay.
Excellent posts here in this thread which is so nice to read. Whenever I decide to 'hang em up' it's nice to know others will be giving strong advice. Trust me, 5+ years is a long time to be posting here, but being retired enables me to do it. I love helping out both serious buyers and sellers. You guys are doing a real favor to so many people looking for cars. That's what it is all about. This is serious $$ for so many people.

Firebrian

The seller posted a few additional comments on line after receiving questions. Turns out the car has some flaws and that they really haven't looked at the car all that closely. The door panel crack was a "discovery?" It probably matters a lot to anyone buying this car today whether they pay $17K or $20K for it, regardless if they end up owning it for 10 years. No one disputes that this is a great looking car. And one most anyone would be proud to own.....at a price.

I wanted to point out a few things pertaining to the TA. I have had some great questions posed to me and thought it fair to disclose my discoveries. The passenger door panel is cracked and the drivers side appears that it may just be starting. Other than that I can't find any other flaws in the interior. The dash is perfect, leather is amazing, and the other details seem like new.

I found a scrape on the top of the removable license plate cover. My friend put the cover on it for me and I had not looked at it closely. I assume it fell off the car and scraped the top edge. As I look over the body I just can't find other defects.

Finally, Just a word to a potential buyer. I realize that 19.5k is not giving the car away. This is the right car for the right buyer and not for everyone, like myself. I enjoy clean, original cars. As a person who has a passion for this type of car (original, well preserved), I don't see how the right buyer could be disappointed in the car. I am impressed with the car and everyone who sees it agrees. If you want a white anniversary model, that get it and be happy. If you like the last 2002 in all its glory, then get that one. If you want a Black, leather, T-Top car, 6 speed then this is for you. I don't know that in 10 years you will care if you paid 17k or 20k for the right car.....

NC01TA

Firebrian, thanks for the update. Sounds like the seller read my last paragraph in post #3. Almost to the word.
It is interesting how the door panels crack just from sitting. My driver's door finally started after about 12 years. When it gets bad I'll fix it. Passenger side still OK.

hardbones

I thought that was funny too that now its not "perfect"!

My door panels are starting to show a dip or stress spot where the cracks always start. Need to take them off and remove that staple before it starts cracking.