Tlafntn

looking for input on buying my pontiac. Ive been looking for years and dreamed of owning one as a teen. Now I it is time to get my Sunday driver! I really like the 2002 Trans AM WS6 T-Top. I love how it looks in red but if I am buying my sunday driver to keep forever should I consider the collectors edition? will it hold better value over time? and should I get it just to build value if it holds better in the long run?

Currently looking at a local 2002 Trans AM WF6 T-Top Collectors edition w/46k miles. Has some upgrades to engine but I will receive all original parts with sale. he is asking $18,500 and my first offer back was $15,000k cash. what you all think?

groundZ-28ERO

friend of mine bought a ceta with 52k miles for 15,000$ cash a few years ago. id say your not far off. Ive always been more partial to firehawks, especially formula hawks. have you thought about getting one of those.

Tlafntn

no I have not.. I will have to look into it. I just I love the last years body style and if I get one to hold onto. I always just assumed I guess the Trans AM WS6 was the top of the line.

30thanniv

iTrader: (2)

Cars are generally not considered good investments. Buy what you like and enjoy the crap out of it. You are only on this world for a short time and after that gone for a long time.

Tlafntn

Yes you are correct. I say I want it to hold better value but I guess it really dont matter since I already plan to hold onto it and pass it down to my 8mth old son once he is a responsible adult.

enigmah

iTrader: (1)

The 3 fbodies that hold the best value are ( low mile obviously ) Sunset Orange Metallic cars, Collector TA's and Anniversary cars.

NC01TA

I like your $15k offer. It sounds right to me as well.
Don't worry about 'collector' value if you plan on keeping the car for decades. The miles will add up even as a Sunday driver. I put just 3,000 miles a year on my T/A and I'm about to roll over 50,000 miles. I never would have imagined that when I bought it off the showroom floor. Just keeping your F-body as nice as possible will always keep any LS1 car desireable down the road. Your son will be the envy of many.
Good luck with your search. Get what you want and don't settle for anything if your long term plans are as stated. Get a garage kept, one or two owner, well maintained 'loved' car with lower miles. You may need to travel to find it. Don't let a weekend trip discourage you from getting a pristine example.

Firebrian

The 1999 anniv T/A in white/blue is probably the most loved/desired of all the WS6's. Then it's probably a toss up between SOM and the 2002 yellow CETA anniv model. A lot of potential buyers aren't in love with that yellow + graphics as it pushes the already sort of "wild" WS6 looks to over the top. An automatic with 38K miles sold local to me last year for about $16K. These cars will all hold their values at current levels if not driven much (ie 200-500 miles per year). Figure about $650-$1,000/yr depreciation for every additional 10,000 miles driven. Firehawks aren't as well known as the WS6 and a lot of buyers aren't really interested. The more wild looks of the WS6 draws in buyers.

If you can afford a 1-2 owner CETA with 15K-30K miles that will give you more room before you clear the 50K and 70K mile points where collectors are not as aggressive in buying these cars. I think a 15K-30K mile car is a better value than one at 45K-55K because those lower miles are always significantly under-valued via the price guides. CETA's with 70K-125K miles seem to be harder to find than lower mile ones. The majority of them probably haven't been driven much....and that will likely continue. So in one respect, there's an ample supply of these cars always on the market. Last time I considered buying one was in 2011 when an A4 convertible with 12K miles was available around $21K. A similar 9K mile coupe in my area was priced in the $19's. Even with 100K miles these cars (if well maintained) should never be worth less than $10K-$12K.

ArrestMeRed

Looks like a low mileage example of what you're looking for -

https://ls1tech.com/forums/vehicle-c...le-trades.html

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I think this is the key point. Value retention is really a meaningless consideration if you're looking for a life-long toy that's been your dream car for ages. Cars are a poor choice as investments, few people will ever make a better profit (or any profit at all) on a car than what they would have otherwise made via some other investment option. To me, cars are either transportation or toys - in this case obviously the latter - at which point the only thing that matters in regards to value is that you don't drastically overpay at the point of purchase.

Best to go for the nicest condition example that your budget will allow, and with the options/trim level that you desire most. Both of those factors will be much more important in a long term ownership situation than how much the car might be worth (or desired by others) in the distant future.

Firebrian

The choice of cars as investments is cyclic. The classic muscle car market boomed from the 1970's lows to the 1989/1990 peak. The '67-'71 Mopars I follow quadrupled and then some, most of that occurring from 1983-1990. The same thing happened again from 1996-2007 where even more common muscle cars doubled and tripled. I briefly owned a restored 1970 Challenger R/T 440-6 in summer of 1996 paying $19,500 for it. I sold the car after only 6 months because of all the flack I took at shows about what was "incorrect" with the restoration. The car was still a strong #2 and 90-95% correct. By 2007 that same car was worth over $90K with the owner turning down unrequested offers for it. It probably peaked out in the $95K-$100K range. A 5X return for doing nothing to the car except driving it to shows was a pretty good return. The car changed hands a couple years ago for around $65K.

The right cars, at the right time in a cycle can be quite worthy investments. Those cars may have seen their all time highs. Lightning struck twice on those cars. There may or may not be a 3rd time. With the ever increasing factory HP wars, we may not get the conditions again that fueled the classic performance car market tops in 1990 and 2007. 1993-2004 LT1, LSX cars have a long ways to go to create strong potential upside....if they ever do it. Lots of mint condition cars have been saved.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Too much risk trying to hit such a target IMO. Any monies that I have earmarked for future growth/income/long term savings/etc. will never be spent on cars. They are horrible investments for the most part, and rarely will they outperform more traditional investments over the long term.

Generally, the most collectible LS1 4th gen so far seems to be the WS6 Trans Am models. I bought one new in 2000 for $30k. If I still owned it today, it would have somewhere around 16k miles based on my annual average since the time I sold it. It was bright red, ebony interior, A4 trans; lets assume excellent condition. What would be the value today?

Now let's take that same $30k and invest it in some basic bank CDs. In the 2000-2007 era, one could secure a 7% interest rate on a long term CD, with a drop to 2-4% in the 2008-2010ish era, then only about 1-2% after that.

So, compounding quarterly, that $30k would have been $49k by 2007. Assuming the account matured during the 2-4% reinvest era (we'll average it to 3%) for a five year term starting in 2008, we're now up to $57k. That brings us to 2013 - poor year for returns, but still possible to get 1-2% (we'll average 1.5%) on a five year CD. So from there to 2016, we'd now be at $60k and growing. And that's with no additional funds added, just compounding interest, and with a super simple, zero risk investment that's far too "soft" by the standards of most financial advisors, yet that $30k still would have doubled between 2000 and 2016. The same certainly cannot be said for my old WS6 Trans Am.

On top of that, it would have cost something to own that car for those 16 years; insurance, maintenance, possibly storage fees for those without room in their home garage. Obviously there is no way that car would be worth $60k today, and it would probably never be able to catch up as interest rates are rising again.

Thankfully, I bought that car as a toy and wasn't ever counting on future profits.

I think it would take another watershed moment, like the horsepower dark ages of 1975-1985, to cause real demand for the cars built just prior to the drop off. As long as new cars keep getting faster and more powerful, the only advantages to the older models are styling (subjective) and the [relative] simplicity of maintenance/modification - not sure those factors have the ability to ever create demand for the 4th gens (or more recent models) comparable to what we saw at the peak of the original muscle car market.

As for the original muscle cars, as the guys who pay those big bucks continue to age and die off, we may never see values that high again. The youngest enthusiasts don't often have such lust for these dinosaurs, and if they do it's often just to convert them to modern pro-touring machines - so they won't be paying $100k+ for a perfect 440-6 Mopar still equipped with all original tech, including three gasoline toilet bowls sitting on top of the engine.

Tlafntn

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. Yes I think I may be misspoken talking as investment and value over time as I dont plan to ever sell. I did not really think about that until someone said it here "dont worry about resale if you plan on keeping it" My investments will still be slum lording as it as not failed me yet LOL (Knock on wood)

Back to cars. So I just noticed a dealership by me has one and I guess it could save me from alot of traveling but I feel he is way over priced

1998 TA, T-Top, WS6, RED, 18k miles. Issues I see it shows a accident on carfax (not totaled or salvaged). He is asking 19K for it. I told him 10K cash I will come get it now and he said he had to think about it. I have a little wiggle room but what would you guys feel its worth?

NC01TA

^^^ Depends on the accident. Fender bender, no problem if repaired right. Damage to the suspension turns me off completely. If a minor accident, $10k is a rather low offer for a WS6 with 18k miles. On the other hand his asking price is out of line. I am surprised he didn't hang up on you though. Definitely move higher on price if the car checks out. That means garage kept, one or two owner with those miles, and should be in excellent condition with those miles too. I'd go right up to $14k if all conditions are met. Start subtracting for needs, like tires (originals need to be long gone), no maintenance history, mods, etc...
Good luck!!

Firebrian

NC01TA gave good advice. Add $1500 if it's an M6. $19K would be a fair price for a 1 owner, '98-'99 WS6 M6 with 3K miles, and no accidents. That's what a black one sold for on Ebay last year, or year before. $14K-$15,500 is probably a fair range for a minor accident that was perfectly repaired and A4 (low end) and M6 (high end). Check the tire date codes at the end of the "DOT" info line. On a 1999 I'd expect XX8 or XX9, where XX are the digits representing which week of the year out of 52. 4 digit date codes appear from 2000 and later. Most dealers don't get these cars very often. It might take your dealer until August to figure out that $19K is out to lunch. If you're willing to look within a 500-800 mile radius of home, you can find a couple priced right.

Fwiw, a local Ford dealer to me had a 1 owner, black, 2000 M6 WS6 "estate car" with 14K miles back in 2012. The owner passed and there was no documentation with the car. They were asking around $16,500-$17,000. That was too high imo. I was at $15,500. And it took them 6-8 months to finally sell it. That was a nice looking car that test drove perfectly without any drive train rattles, whirs, slaps, knocks, etc.