unbuckedpuddle

Hello!
I am brand new to this forum. I just bought a '99 Trans Am 2 weeks ago which I am very excited about since I have been wanting one for some time.
After I bought my car I took the sail panel covers off and realized there were no woofers. So after spending some time finding a replacement I ordered the bazooka 6.5'' woofers.
When I went to install them today I noticed pink wires connected to one set of the +/- from the woofers going to the rear. I took of the rear panel that houses the other set of speakers and found those pink wires not connected to anything just bundled up under there. It is the same on both sides. I am guessing that the person who had the car before ran the wires to a subwoofer in the rear. Well it just so happens a have a spare 12'' sub from a friend and I hooked the pink wires from one side to the 12'' sub just to test. Well I think the 12'' sounds much better than the little 6.5''. It puts out a much deeper thump. So now I dont even want to use the 6.5 woofers and just go with the 12'' (too bad I already bought them ).

Well what I would like the to know is if I can run the 12'' sub like this; just using the two of the wires from the sail panel (leaving the other two just hanging there) to deliver sound to the 12''. What I was thinking of doing is hooking up an adjustable mono amp (so I can control woofer bass directly) from one set of +/- from one of the 6.5'' woofers, then running wires from the amp to the 12''. So I would not be using the 6.5'' woofers.
Would this work ok? This means the wires going into the mono amp have already been passed through the monsoon amp. Will this cause any problems? And I was planning on just leaving the wires for the other sail panel woofer alone and have them do nothing.

I searched and could not find anyone tring to do the same thing. If anyone knows any problems with doing it this way or a better way of doing it please let me know. Thanks!

dragonrage

It's not good to run a sub using separate left/right signals. You can use them as a signal source for an aftermarket amplifier. Or you can run separate subs with them.

For the most part, the less power you have, the larger the speaker you need to get decent volume, because larger speakers tend to be more efficient. But the stock power isn't much in any case...

Capricio

Totally agree, sending different voice coils in the same cone anything other than the exact same input is asking them to occasionally oppose each other and destroy themselves.

Well, the lower the frequency, the larger diameter or excursion required, the more power required. I think what you're trying to say is larger speakers producing the same frequencies as smaller speakers tend to be more efficient, but larger speakers can typically go much lower than smaller speakers can. Sub-bass frequencies, in the 25-100 Hz range, require a LOT more power to produce than mid-bass or higher frequencies.

The sail panels are are more mid-bass oriented unless you put in an expensive set of high excursion cones that the stock amp couldn't drive them very well. The Bazookas are a step above stock and are good in the 80-300 Hz range (despite what their desc says), but they will never perform as well as a 12" below that.

I would say just install the bazookas in a stock DVC configuration and if you want more sub-bass, get an external monoblock class D amp and hook the 12" up to supplement the sail panels. The power coming out of each channel on the Monsoon amp is kind of inadequate to drive a serious 12" cone.

If you're using the stock HU, you could tap into the wires driving the sails and use them as a source signal to an external monoblock, this would draw very little current from the Monsoon amp. If you have an aftermarket HU, just use some RCAs from the Sub-out.

unbuckedpuddle

That actually what I wanted to do. I just had the sub connected directly to the sail panel woofer wires for time being.
So I wanna make sure I have this right. There are two sets of +/- wires for each sail panel woofer (4 wires total) I can just take two of them (for the left sail panel I will use the blue stripe and green stripe wires) and run those to a mono amp and that is sufficient for a source because in this configuration its not using the monsoon as its power source, its using the mono amp.

Oh, and I am using the stock HU

I guess the thing that confuses me the most is why there are 4 wires for the sail panel speakers. Is it going to be ok to just use 2 of them?

Thanks

unbuckedpuddle

Another reason I would like to set a sub up this way is because it will give me direct control of how much bass I want the subwoofer putting out (As long as the amp has an adjustment on it). Since I have the stock head unit I do not have this control since when you change the low level frequencies it changes the frequencies for all the speakers and not just the woofers.

Capricio

The firebirds have dual voice coil, or DVC mid-bass cones in the sail panels. The monsoon amp drives each of these two voice coils with a separate channel. The Pontiac version of the amp actually has 8 amp channels driving 6 locations, front pair, hatch pair, and sails. Four of the eight amp channels go to the sail panels. Each sail panel DVC needs a total of four wires, or two pairs, one for each coil.

The way you have it now, you're only energizing one of the two coils in each sail panel cone and probably under-driving a 12" with two weak channels that are sending different stereo inputs without any summarizing. Both situations are less than optimal or worse.

Just get the sail panel DVCs wired correctly again and get a new monoblock that can take line level inputs to drive your 12. Or get a new HU and use RCAs.

Capricio

Read this:

http://www.crutchfield.com/Learn/lea...fers_dual.html

Look where it describes "Independent" powering, that is what is supposed be going on in your car.

dragonrage

Yes, the lower the frequency, the more the power needs. But what I said was not wrong. Yes, the larger driver will probably have a lower Fs and have less impedance at the lower frequencies but that really doesn't matter as long as the driver's impedance is within spec for the amp. Though, ideally, there should be a high-pass filter, anyway. But it will still be more efficient otherwise. It does vary depending on the driver so a 15" might not have a higher efficiency than a 12" or a 10" depending on what drivers you compare, but a 12" will pretty much always beat a 6.5" in efficiency.

unbuckledpuddle

Ok. Thanks. I guess I will just run the 12'' off a monoblock connected to the line out converter that I here others talking about.
Thanks

unbuckledpuddle

So I decided to just go ahead and put the bazooka woofers in and worry about the 12'' another time and I have to say I was impressed. They give really good bass. Better than I thought. Thanks for all your help!

Capricio

I still think you misunderstood me on using the sail panel speaker wires as a source for a monoblock. You wouldn't "steal" one of the speaker wires from each sail panel and reroute them, you would "tap" or use a quick-splice on one wire pair from each side and run a new pair of wires off THOSE as a source for your monoblock. A monoblock with a line level input will summarize the stereo signal inputs and send one amplified signal to your 12". This will not draw down the amplified signal going to your sails in any significant way.

Also, turning down the bass on the HU won't really affect all speakers channels equally. The the Monsoon amp has an internal crossover that sends bass mostly to the sails already, so turning the bass down on the HU will mostly affect the sail channels. The LPF (low pass freq) of that filter is not documented anywhere I have seen, but I'd guess it's in the 300-500 Hz range.

unbuckledpuddle

Ok. I will probably hold off on this for now but I appreciate the help. It will defiantly help later on if I add the 12''.
As far as the source for the mono block, you would only need a single pair from ONE sail panel correct? I didn't know if you were trying to say you need a pair from both sail panels to come into the mono block.
Thanks

Capricio

You should tap into one pair from both sides. In theory, although most sub bass is considered to be perceived as non-directional when it comes out, the track you're listening to may have been recorded to only send certain bass signals to only the right or left channel (mic positions, mixing, etc). So, if you want to make sure your mono-sub reproduces bass from both the right and left channels, you should send both sides to it. The line-level input on the monoblock amp will summarize (blend together) both left and right into a single output when it amplifies the signal to the cone, and both coils (if it's a DVC cone in series or parallel) on the 12" will receive exactly the same signal.

Same thing with a monoblock amp with RCA inputs. You send it both red and white (L/R) inputs, but it summarizes and amplifies them into mono output. Again, you do NOT want to send different coils on the same cone different L/R signals from separate amp channels.

...and just because I want be 100% clear, you should never disconnect any wires from your DVC sails, so long as you are using the Monsoon amp, even if you use them as a line output source for a new monoblock amp. Tap, not reroute!

Edit: Actually, if the line-inputs on the monoblock amp have positions for 4 pairs, tap into both pairs on both sides. I an explain why if you want, but trust me it's better that way even though it's more work and materials.

unbuckledpuddle

Ok. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it