JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

If you look at what the cable is attached to you will see a cylinder shaped plastic lug with 2 flat sides. The cable end has a circular hole with 2 flat sides that match up with it. The cable moves a big flap between the evaperator core and the heater core. Those are your hot and cold sources. The flap only moves a bit more than 90* if I remember right. You can't see the flap, only the plastic nub below the flaps center pivot point. It moves very easily, that's why there are notches and tensioners built into the temp switch so that the switch holds it at whatever opening you want.

With the plastic shield and the cable end removed you could literally reach under there and move the flap with your fingers. It shouldn't be too hard to make a new device to control the flap.

HPP

Yeah, basically all I was saying was, skip all the stepper motor and programatic control and tracking via RS-232 or whatever. Nothing to do with any of that. The **** turns left and right in a circular fashion. A motor does the same thing. However, a motor can be controlled in a linear fashion (with 2 switches, each corresponding to a motor direction, which can be mounted on a single rocker switch).

So basically, you press up (for example), and it moves the motor to the right (hot), and press down, and it moves the motor to the left (cold).

All you need then is to fab up the motor to cable interface, which could be direct, if it's strong enough, or done with linkages, or gears.

Really shouldn't be all that hard at all.

HPP

Just very recently I was asking Jason about headunit placement and control and interface and such, and he told me something so obvious I was embrassed about it (lol), lose the head unit altogether.

Cards exist for both FM and XM reception. And 75% of the point of a carPC is mp3s. So that's all your music accounted for. Absolutely no need, or even use really, for a headunit at that point.

My plan (right now I'm in information gathering and idea formulation mode - mostly looking for a front end, planning what features I will need/want, and trying to map out my hardware needs) is to use a wide screen that will take the space of the factory headunit. Leave the HVAC controls where they are. And mount all the components in the back of the car (as far back as possible). Then run the line out to an amp (which also may be relocated), and run the existing speakers (for now at least). I may dump the rear 4 speakers (I could use that space for mounting too).

Basically I want as much weight removed, or relocated, as possible without losing any functionality or comfort. This is an opportunity to take the few pounds the stock stereo represents and move it to the back of the car (and possibly reduce it's total as well).

The front end is the current sticking point. I don't want to use a lot of the stuff many people are doing. I want something stripped down. I may even try to work without a touch screen and mount buttons on the side (like an ATM machine) and use a Powermate (like BMW I-Drive) to manipulate the front end.

I also want to use that IR thingy Jason told me about to get the steering wheel controls to function as well. Probably keeping them exclusive to audio control at all times (mute always being mute, volume always being volume, etc).


Edit - even though I don't currently plan on doing anything different with the climate controls, I do enjoy thinking of ideas and options. And hopefully helping someone who does want to do something different. That in turn may give me an idea of something to try which would fall in line with my goals. (basically the only reason I currently plan on leaving them alone in my car is that I haven't seen anything to do with them that is slick enough to look OEM.)

lo_jack

iTrader: (27)

My question about getting rid of the HU altogether is how do you run multiple amps.
I can see the advantages of weight reduction, they are obvious.

But running a lot of sound shaping software on the PC and running all music offthe pc uses a good chunk of resources, and from what I understand (keep in mind I have just taken up this project again after a year) is that running small fanless mini boards means sacrificing some processing power.

I think the back wheel areas would be great for mounting stuff you do not need to get at often, if you ditch the far speakers. But I do want to run at least two amps, and I do not see how to, without buying a really insane sound card, run multiple amps without a head unit.

Your interface stuff is interesting. ATM style is stripped down. What about a track ball or an IR pad? Mount it up where the ashtray is perhaps...even in the ashtray so you close it and its gone.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

That idea would work, but only on a smaller 8" screen. The 10.4 takes up all the space and barely fits. You need a thin metal frame around the 10.4" LCD panel to fit it in. A thick framed panel won't fit.
So even if you have a thin framed 10.4 that fit's in the hole you still have the stock plastic tabs that the radio and A/C controls bolt to. For the 10.4" to swing up and in you would have to trim the tabs on both sides. I was trying my best to leave those tabs in there so I can return everything to stock if I wanted to. Now an 8" would retract into the dash without having to cut those tabs.

Popping the LCD screen out evertime you want to adjust the climate controls? Not for me, pal. I don't think that is a good idea.

Keep in mind I'm not using a HU of any kind. I just mentioned some ideas for them for those of you still using a HU.

I'm building a very large and elaberate steel frame housing to mount above the gas tank. It will be 1/8" steel plate and 3/4 square tubing. I will have 3 amps, the mobo, passive x-overs, the H700 brain, plus all the other extra junk (PSU, HDD, wires, distribution blocks, fuses) hidden in there. The whole shebang will be covered with a wooden frame wrapped in leather (or suede or something nice, I haven't decided yet) with real glass windows so you can see inside. It's going to be the ****. That's a whole other thread though.

So I guess you would use a big gear reduction unit to slow the speeds down and to help hold the flap into position, huh?

Sounds kind of like my QTP electric cutout. It works the same way. Oooo, snap! Why not just buy an electric cutout and bolt them together? That would totally work. I have mine connected to a convertible top switch which reverses the polarity to the motor to make it open and close. The only thing is you have to be careful not to hold the buttom after it's fully open or closed or you'll put a lot of stress on it. With practice you get a feel for the times to open and close it. Check out the pics and videos here.
http://www.quicktimeperformance.com/QTEC/index.php

Looks like they just came out with some type of controller for it.
http://www.quicktimeperformance.com/Controller/

It does get pricey though. $155 for the cutout and $110 for the controller. This might be overkill, though.

The McCord Power Plate is only $117.
http://www.mccordcg.com/mpp/mpp.htm
These devices are basically just motors attached to large gear reduction units and are controlled by a 2 way toggle switch. 2 buttons can also be used. I think there are motor and gear reduction setups already out there on ebay and electronics stores. I think they would be cheaper than any cutout as the cutout cost is mainly the custom milled butterfly assemblies.

Some simple reed switches could be added to indicate full hot or full cold. Just push the hot or cold button to change the temp. Or use a rocker switch. I think that sounds pretty good. I could add 2 small buttons in between the 2 big ***** and mount everything into the cig lighter area. Use blue and red to indicate the temps direction. Yea, that's pretty sweet!

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Follow Snootches lead. The 7" wide screen just barely fits if you move the A/C controls down just a mm or 2. I would get the touchscreen. though. It's just really handy. You can always add that Powermate as well. It is a clean factory look and is probably the easiest way to do it that I know of. Those screens are only like $270-$300 for everything including shipping.

lo_jack

iTrader: (27)

E cutout is a good idea - single button controlled electronic motor with infinite adjustability between two points. Pretty much what you would need to convert that cable driven system to electronic, if you can figure out how to make it control the hot/cold device at the other end.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

If you can't afford a unit like the Alpine H700, then you can get a decent sound card that has good analog out and then go directly to the amp. If you have an EQ, then send it to the EQ first and then use splitters to go to multiple amps and use the x-overs built into the amps.

There's really no good way to have the PC do any sound shaping. My $30 Chaintech AV-710 sound card has excellent analog out on channels 7 and 8. Use them as the main stereo out from the card. If you wanted 5.1 surround, then you would have to go with a higher end card for better sound quality.

I'm probably not even going to use my sound card once I swap to a new mobo here shortly. I'll use the optical output straight from the mobo.

Also, the mini/micro ATX boards (the one with only 2 PCI slots) fit nicely in the drivers side cubby hole in the back. Bernhard "Firebird" with the 10.4" used that location with that sized mobo. My setup uses a 3000+ Sempron and the heatsink is car temp, not any warmer and the fan stays off most of the time. You can't beat cooling like that!

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Just attach the gear end directly to the flap. I think that would work.

HPP

I would figure a sound card to be adequate. As long as it has a line out (and most do), you can use the software EQs and volume controls to deal with all that stuff, and just pipe the output directly to the amp.

When you factor in wind and road noise, exhaust noise, and if you're of the type to run with windows open, and/or topless, much of the time, there's no need to get audiophile-home-theater-in-a-sound-proof-room quality of sound.

To that end, I'm probably going to be using WinAMP with the mp3PRO plugin and encoding everything to mp3PRO (which is 64kbps but sounds *almost* identical to a normal mp3 at 128kbps - you have to have good equipment, really know the song, and _try_ to find the difference. In a car, just like my PC at work, any loss of quality will be more than masked by background noise and such). Takes only half the space of normal mp3's as a result. (and they will play in any mp3 player, but without the plugin, sound like plain old basic 64kbps encoded files)

Something I forgot about earlier is that I want to add subs. Doesn't have to be anything spectacular. I'm never gonna top the dual 10" polk enclosure I have in the trunk of my Grand Prix. The existing bass is actually not too bad. I'd just like to upgrade it slightly. If I could find something to fit near the back of the car, possibly in the existing far speaker location, that would be perfect (has to be hidden and not take up cargo or t-top stowage). Plus removal of the existing speakers might allow be to break even on weight.

Sorry.... rambling a bit. lol

lo_jack

iTrader: (27)

Dual amps is why I want to run a HU - youd have to have multiple outs on your soundcard or board that all operate at the same time, like a head unit does. Since I already have a hu with 3 outs, that's why im using it.

But i do see your point.

HPP

The big trick would be interfacing that to a front end. I-drive, for example, has a menu button you press to go "home" from any screen. You press in a direction for a menu, then you turn the wheel to scroll through the menu items.

I know the powermate is programmable, and like the I-Drive controller, contains a button you press down (vertically). So as long as a front end could scroll the highlight, and accept the button press as select, it would work. It's the scroll part that has me concerned.

(could even grab a joystick controller card and fab up some buttons to make a 4-way out of the Powermate too. The hardest part there would be getting the mounting to move in the way you want it too, the switches, controller and OS interface are a breeze)

Touch screens are very handy. And would be idea for controlling the OS itself when outside of the front end. The thing is... every OEM control system I've seen (for example I-Drive, and whatever M-B's is called), have buttons on the side, or underneath, plus a wheel/**** type controller. Virtually nothing is done through a touch screen. That makes the touch screen kinda stand out as a homebrew add on. Plus, there is the issue of redundant controls, no sense in actually adding things like the powermate and custom buttons if you can just touch the screen.

More than likely, I will actually go with one. It's just that I'm currently entertaining other options and ideas. (in the case of OS control, I could use a USB touchpad and/or keyboard if I _really_ needed to)


What do you mean by IR Pad?

A track ball isn't a bad idea. The cover could be redesigned and the ball is more slick than a touchpad.

Ideally, I'd like to get away without having to do that, but it is certainly an option.

HPP

Hmm. Why multiple amps though? (just curious)

You might be able to just split the signal, depending on what it is you're using the mutliple amps for, that is.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Sound quality varies a lot depending on the card. I started out using a $150 Hercules Gaming Theater with a break out box and stuff. It was supposed to be real good, but sound quality through a good system sounded pretty sucky. Best bang for the buck is the Chaintech AV-710 or another card based around the Envy24HT chip (24/192 support). The AV-710 uses a Wolfson WM8728 DAC. (Note these both only apply to 2-channel mode. The surrounds use lesser DACs). The WM8728 has a 106dB SNR.
http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71477
This card sounded so much better.

I would not use the software EQ unless it was just a band or 2. I think they tend to add noise to the output. You might be OK there, though.
I use Winamp myself with a Roadrunner frontend.
Why are you even considering mp3PRO? Just convert your CD's over to 320kbps. It's not like you need to save space.
Mount your subs in the far back. It will make a single 10 sound like 2 10's plus the sound quality is best.

Again, Benhard has that. You guys saw his thread didn't you?
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=33407

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I used to run a stereo signal through an EQ then to a 3 way x-over then to the amps. You can still do that, but I think you want to use the HU because you can tweak the sub level and fader from up front, right? You must have one of those new HU's that have all the EQ and x-over stuff built in, huh?
I can't blame you for wanting to use that.

The Alpine piece I use does all that plus a lot more. It really is ideal for car use, but it's pricey. I assumed you would Google it if you wanted to know what it was. Here is some info to save you the trouble. http://www.abtelectronics.com/product/16615.html

HPP

Berhard's screen install is sweet.

The trackball isntall is just the kind of thing I want to stay away from. (which is a major issue for me, I doubt I could do the quality of fab work on the interior plastic peices that I would actually want ). What lo_jack was saying was to stuff it in the ashtray. I've considered doing away with it and the lighter, as I don't use, nor allow the use of, either. A trick little door that didn't look like an ashtray cover, and a trackball inside of a hideaway compartment that didn't look like a converted ashtray, might be ok. That's all I was thinking (not that I actually wanted to try it).


The reason I'm thinking of mp3PRO is that on my work PC, I have about 18GB of music. _Most_ of that is already in mp3PRO format. Some of it came from elsewhere. I only have a small percentage of my CD collection here - maybe 25 to 33% or so. I want all my music available, plus have to factor in OS space, update space (and updates to the updates to the updates - for the OS), front end space, application space, etc. Windows XP takes over 1GB itself. A fully updated XP Pro install, complete with Office and supporting apps, can take nearly 4GB. I do want to have at least Excel on here (probably won't use it much, but I was thinking it might be nice to have a hidden USB port and use a USB key to drag my personal expense tracking spreadsheet with me so that I could update it in the car rather than have to hang on to reciepts)

Oh, and then add music videos to that too (I have about 20GB of those at home, most are songs I don't have elsewhere too).

And that's with me planning to *not* use it for non-music related video playback. lol

I know they may 500GB drives, but I don't like using top of the line drives. I don't trust them. I like to go no more than half what the latest and greatest is. (I've lost too many drives - in a non-moving environment at that) Plus, I want to do this on the cheap, and, ideally, I'd like to use a laptop drive, rather than a desktop drive. Much smaller, and much lighter. But usually of lesser capacity, and more $ per GB.

HPP

I don't have anything but the stock head unit and didn't plan on multiple amps. I was just asking lo_jack.

Or were you responding to him but quoting me? lol

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I don't know. Whoever is using a HU.
You guys are getting me so confused, plus I can't keep up with your posts.

HPP

I think I found it! Finally! Sweet.....

Some things were bugging me. Nearly all the front ends were very, well, PC-centric. I know, should expect it right? lol But I was shooting for less Windows functionality and more I-Drive-type stuff. Plus I didn't like the way people had the front ends organized. Things like Music and Radio being on the same menu as 2 options. Radio should be a sub-menu of Music, etc.

The other thing was, I wasn't sure how I could get external buttons (and more importantly, my steering wheel controls) to not be context specific (ie - do the same thing all the time). Part of that whole "ATM-like" concept with the buttons on the side of the screen and also making the wheel volume always being volume, etc.

Someone made a skin for RR that is stripped down, almost elegant, and made for a 7" wide screen. Unfortunately it has that hideous fold bow-tie thingy in the middle of it.

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/atta...1&d=1153773733

Arrow keys will cycle through the on screen buttons, and control plus left or right will seek tracks, even in the main menu.

When I found this, I that the wheel "seek" could always be track skip, and that a powermate would be able to be interfaced and scroll through menu items like I-Drive.

I'm starting to think about just breaking down and using touch screen input only (plus steering wheel), but knowing that hotkeys work and can be context independant, and that the interface can be super stripped down, is just totally sweet.

Have a test rig on a laptop to mess with FEs and skins. (so much to choose from it's just overwhelming)

Now to start locating the initial, prototype, hardware for the install.

Gotta wait till next month to order my shocks, and can't get the screen until after that. Sucks to have to wait. lol

HPP

Jason, about HVAC controls, what about taking the rocker switch controlling an electric motor hooked to the temp cable idea, and going a step further with it?

The 2 large *****, flanking a single vertical rocker might be tricky to make look right. Plus it would still be large(-ish).

On my Grand Prix, like I mentioned before, the fan speed is a mechanical push button. I don't know what it looks like inside, but what it feels like is a dual rachet of some sort. When you press one, it feels like it turns a small wheel inside, which rotates the selected contact. Press it up to 3 times to reach maximum and then it stops working. Press the other one and it goes back the other way. Again, up to 3 times.

Ok, something similar to that could be worked up for the same use here (or even outright cannibalized). Then you could have 2 rocker switches flanking 1 ****. Speed on left, temp on right, with mode dominating the layout in the center.

It should fit in the TCS/Roof switch area. Maybe even not consume the lighter. Plus you could extend the post/shaft for the **** for the mode selector and push that internal control further back (if needed) and make a smaller **** and squeeze things in closer.

Or maybe instead of 2 rockers, 4 buttons on either side of 1 ****.

If you could fit them all down there, then you could make the lighter area an interface (USB or IEEE 1394), like Bernhard did, and have the massive 10.4" screen mounted securely above. Everything would be in reach, nothing has to be hidden anywhere, and no fancy hinged/tracked displays to get in the way of anything.