89_camaro

current set up is bone stock 5.3 with ls6 intake and possible ms3 cam...will be runnin nitrous this season and turbo next year.
will the mega suirt systems allow full tuning with both nos and turbo?
ive read a little bit about them but have herd both good and bad experiencs with them...has anyone used them or had good experiences using MS systems?

turbonola

i've got the same questions

BigMan66

If your taking the time to do a Mega Squirt, I'd go with 3. The big seller for me is the option to use GM flex fuel sensor, it seems like this is a track build but if you have access to E85, turbos love it. I also think MS3 has more support for sequential spark and fuel and since you have crank and cam sensors and coil per plug, wasted spark seems like a waste... Also lets get away from bank to bank batch firing of injectors, it's 2013 not 1983

I will be running a 2004r transmission (speaking of '83) in my build so stand alone is the best way, unless someone knows about getting a speed sensor in a 2004r that will jive with factory ecu and maybe still give me mechanical for the og speedo ( I assume you need a speed input to make factory ecu work correctly)

Other issues with stand alone is that most don't have knock control, from what I've seen they have the option, but more of a warning light than actual timing correction. Many will say that a custom tune doesn't need knock control because that gets dealt with when the car is getting "professionally" tuned, but I feel that there are too many variables not to have it. I forget the fueling type, but I think you will only be able to run speed density, which needs only TP, MAP and RPM (Again if you have a cam sensor too, you can get sequential). Maybe some fueling correction if you run widebands, which is Alpha N, right?

I'm sure that someone will correct me, but if your more concerned with WOT performance I'd go MS but I believe the best driveability will come from the factory ECU with a MAF, 2 banks of 02s and knock control.

BigMan66

EDIT: For the basic get the motor running you also need an IAT sensor

protomor

MS does have knock retard. Especially the MS3 has some great provisions for it. It can run nos and EBC and all that. I'd def go MS3. I ran one for a while. The difference was night and day. Not to mention individual injector/spark drivers allows for full control of each cylinder.

A warning though, it is very DIY.

malarlar

Talk to denmah and get setup with a microsquirt 2 deal

TurboMonte

Just out of curiosity what makes folks think that batch fire and waste spark are such bad things?

At speeds above idle the combustion events happen so fast there is no benefit to sequential injection. Unless you are measuring EGT at each cylinder and tuning each cylinder individually you will likely see little to any benefit by going sequential and will only add complexity and cost to an already fairly complex project. You are still injecting fuel against the backside of a closed intake valve and it will sit there and wait until that valve opens. Yes there is a few millisecond difference from batch to sequential on injector firing time so in theory the fuel will have less time to come out of suspension on sequential, but again, it is all happening at a speed that is hard to even comprehend.

As far as waste spark goes the LS styles of coils are EXTREMELY powerful. For almost 100 years of internal combustion engines it was the norm to have a single coil to provide spark to all the cylinders. In waste spark you are using 4 coils to fire 8 cylinders, a 400% improvement over a single coil distributor setup! These coils really put out some juice. Look at what some people are making for HP on stock LS coils. And again, individual coil control means more cost and more complexity.

Having said all of that the MS3 is a thing of beauty. It is quite amazing. It is however fairly complex and as protomor said is heavy on the DIY side. There is NO phone number to call when you get stuck, and I guarantee you will get stuck. When that happens it is on you and hopefully the help of forum goers that have been down the same road to figure out what type of solution to your particular problem.

To get an MS3 set up to run an LS for sequential injection and individual coil control will run $577 for the hardware, an MS2 set up to do batch fire and waste spark will cost $278. That is a substantial price difference.

Either one will work incredibly. I have a lot of experience with the MS2 and I am in love with it. Dollar for dollar they can't be beat.

Good luck!

protomor

Sequential injection is mainly fuel economy and tuning. Firing against a closed valve isn't ideal. You get some on the side of the cylinder head and on the valve itself. Later on down the line it dribbles into the combustion chamber. Yea it really doesn't dribble but it isn't in the fine mist of atomized gasoline that it needs to be in order to fully use the potential of the fuel you put in. IIRC it's called tau. Again, most EFI systems account for this and it's really just for economy and squeezing every last drop of hp for your fuel as possible.

Wasted spark is just that, you use half of the coil's charge to fire on 2 cylinders. 1 cylinder really needs it. You wear the coils out faster as they fire once every 360 instead of once every 720. This isn't really that big of a deal until you get to the point where you have to dwell longer than is possible. Then you wind up with spark blow out at high rpm. Not ideal. IMO, if you have 1 coil per cylinder, use them. No sense in converting to wasted spark. If you convert from a distributor, wasted spark will get you far but not all the way (depending on your goals).

Summation: Really doesn't matter for the average one of us. If you're going this far, why not go all the way?

MS2 vs MS3 however, I wouldn't even touch an MS2. The MS3X is superior in every way. This is not to be confused with a regular MS3. F that thing. The MS3x comes with SD card logging, a freaking logging switch, individual injection/spark, boost control, spark control, nos control, fan output, ebc, etc etc all without modifying anything. The MS2 requires you to solder extra bits and run modified MS extra code for spark. Sooo much more. Again, why go this far and not go all the way?

Personally, I've run an MS1 and MS3x. The MS forums are a great source of info. Worst case, diyautotune.com has great customer service. They even have a book on EFI basics. Matt cramer is an awesome guy.

*steps down from soap box*

aknovaman

iTrader: (7)

The OP asked if MS can handle NOS and turbo.
His answer is yes.
If you are not on a tight budget go with the latest version; if not Micro will do what you need.

Ok so lets analyze this thread.
Not sure what the above statements are based upon, experience, engineering background, rumor, etc. Id be interested in seeing your source documents; just the engineering stink coming out of me.

Wasted spark does not place a significant additional current load on the coil that is firing on the exhaust stroke. Ford has been running it for years and actually improves emissions as the spark ignites any unburned fuel heading out the exh port (insignificnt as it is). Never seen or heard of a burned out wasted spark coil based upon excessive sparking. Any proof of that statement?

MS3X is superior in functionality but not in price. Micro squirt is $340 but lacks IAC control that can easily be handled via FIDLE solenoid.

Sequential EFI is over rated and is generally used to improve low rpm emissions. LT1 was sequential but only up to about 3200 rpm. 99.9% of MS users and other Seq capable afterarket EFI system users will never touch the sequential tables because they dont have 8 wideband sensors and a load bearing dyno to actually tune each cylinder AFR. For the average user it would be a waste of his time and $$ to even attempt.

Why pay for added functions if you dont need them?

Also, modified MS extra code is easy to load (same process with any other MS system) and is almost fully automated. Just download the update, short one wire to ground, connect to the MS and press a couple keys. In about a minute it is done. It is rather simple.

I do have experience tuning each cylinder AFR on a dyno and I can tell you that there is more power to be gained by changing the timing than fuel.

Respectfully, Signed another satisfied MS user with over 9yrs tuning lsX engine :-)

Here is a sample of some of my tuning projects using MS and other efi systems.

http://www.youtube.com/user/aknovaman

protomor

I never said it placed more load on the coil. I'm saying the coil has to spark more often, therefore shortening lifespan.

I do agree with you. I went for the more expensive route since things were easier for me that way.

I ran an MS1 for 2 years and an MS3 for 1. Def not as much experience as you sir.

BigMan66

Thanks for the input. I have limited experience with MegaSquirt, I actually come from the Audi/VW tuning world. Having experience with 034 motorsports unit, I know that adding extras means more wires and later more troubleshooting.

I also agree with you guys that MS is very DIY, I can contest that I have seen more standalone systems rolling around a trunk or on a shelf because of the learning curve. Also if you struggle with OCD, you better get yourself a good pin kit, because soldering is a big no-no (over time the pointed solder joints will vibrate and puncture other wires) and the only other way is to use buttend connectors. But like I told my buddy when we were fitting an hx35 to a 1.8t, if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

That's just been my limited experience, but being in the same boat of what to do with my build I will rely on more seasoned MS users

protomor

If you're that OCD, I'd recommend buying a prebuilt unit per your specs from diyautotune.com Their QA is great and they warranty their work.

Haddixj

iTrader: (1)

I have a MS3 i bought and was wondering for those that have used them, do you ever drive in open loop? (I think that is right) Meaning that the ECU will compensate for altitude adjustments. I know its advertised as being a feature but I havent seen any people running that way. You can set parameters for the % of change it can make while targeting a specified AFR.

aknovaman

iTrader: (7)

Open loop has nothing to do with altitude. Open lop means there is no feedback from the 02 sensors to correct the air to fuel ratio back to the commanded AFR. If the VE table and MAF table if used is adjusted correctly, then the 02 sensors don't have to make very much correcting to the current afr.

atomic 6

The megasquirt can do altitude compensation, in closed loop.

If you are thinking of closed loop, with constant barometric pressure adjustment. If not then it is just closed loop you are talking about.

I wouldn't think many people would need altitude compensation, and if you want it, you have to run two pressure sensors, one for the baro,and one for the map.

Then the firmware can do the compensation. There is a setting to turn it on called real time baro correction, you turn it on and then you tell it the port your baro sensor is on, it does the rest.

There is also a section to deviate from the assumed linear barometric changes.

Most people just run the single sensor so the baro correction is sampled from the map sensor before start up.(this is how it will be if you leave everything how it is set initally) Then it is assumed close enough.

This is how many factory EFI setups did it.And how many aftermarket have, and still do, do it this way. The squirt is standard this way, but can be changed to "real time" barometric correction but adding a sensor, and turning on the feature.

BudRacing

iTrader: (3)

This. He's earned quite the reputation on this forum.

Haddixj

iTrader: (1)

I have the 4 bar map sensor on my board and it has dual sensors from what I understand, one hooked up to the motor and the other open. I also dont plan on running a MAF sensor either. Thanks for the help I will read up on the megamanual for a better understanding of closed and open loop because I am completely backwards in my thinking so far.
Thanks and sorry to hijack

turbonola

I plan on running ms2 because I'm getting it for free. Whatever needs to be added to make it run my ls1 I will do. I just need to find out what I need

aknovaman

iTrader: (7)

Go here for starters.



I have been swamp'd at work and unable to make the next video in my series on micro.

89_camaro

thank you for all the input and help, looks like i will be purchasing the ms3 hopefully next week if all goes as planned, figured spend the money now so it there if or when i need it in the future.