Stereo & Electronics - Meissen's Project CarPC Thread

As promised, the major part of it is finished: it's been test fitted and mounted. Now I just need the power supply to come so I can actually wire it up, but here's pictures of it installed. I'll come back and post pictures of it on when the power supply comes and I have that wired (that should only take an hour to do).

http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20001.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20002.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20003.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20004.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20005.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20006.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20007.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/carPC%20008.jpg

Things to comment on before someone else does, I need a new knee bolster, so don't comment on the horrid edge of the knee bolster. That was the result of the previous, 10.5" touchscreen bezel. This one's mostly based off the stock radio bezel, the 10.5" was totally custom. Oh, and yes, I know I need to hide the wires under it. ;)

Lookin' great man!! Keep us posted!

looks great man, how much of that mount is custom ?

Damnn... nice man.

Well, I started out with the standard radio bezel, cut about 4 inches back on the bottom of the bezel so that the screen could sit flush with the top edge of the radio's opening. Then I used bondo-glass and filler putty to make it flow and curve the best I could. Then I mounted the motherboard on nylon standoffs on the bottom of the bezel, so I took balsa wood and glued it in place as "walls" on either side of the motherboard, and then used bondo-glass and putty again to make it all flow and such. Hope that makes sense.

The worst part, I'll be sure to take a picture of this when I take it out to wire the powersupply, I had to literally cut all of the inside of the dash where the radio would normally slide into and mount... yeah, totally gone. I don't plan on EVER selling my car, so it's not something I was worried about. Thanks for the compliments, guys, Really hoping I get the powersupply tomorrow, and if I do I should have pics of it running by tomorrow night. :)

That's the most busy interior I've seen in my life.

That's how I like it. :thumb:

Looks pretty good so far, I may not get the appeal of having a PC in your car, but you've done a good job getting it in there, and having it look like it belongs
Now finish it up and post the pics :D

theres lots of good things about having a pc in the car, nearly unlimited storage capacity for MP3s , videos, navigation, OBDII interfaces, internet access, and even control of certain electrical functions of the vehicle, of course thats getting pretty in depth :) ... I really can't wait to get some $$ for mine.

Nice job with the mount meissen. I am not looking forward to making a 7" LCD fit in my dash, the bezel is not nearly as easy to work with

Well, my power supply never came yet. The auction ended on the 8th, but he didn't get it to UPS until the 17th, so it won't be delivered until Monday. Pisses me off big time, I paid a flat $10 for this guy to ship it, and he can't even take it to UPS the same week? Ugh, anyway... thankfully I had an old power invertor that we used to power a TV in my parent's old minivan that we had. So, I plugged the invertor into the 12v accessory plug, and then plugged a normal ATX powersupply into it, and tada it started up fine. The sound sucks a lot more than I was planning, but I think that's because I have an unshielded connection in the middle of the line where the RCA jacks connect, I'm going to try taping them or something tomorrow and see if that helps at all. Anyway, here's two high res images (sorry, I didn't realize the camera was still on high res size until after I loaded them onto the comp) one shows the damage I had to do to the stock radio bezel just to get the dang thing to fit, and then one shot of the carPC up and running.

http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/carPC%20001.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/carPC%20004.jpg

I'll have plenty more pictures tomorow, as I'm hosting a local car show for my website (which is why I wanted this to be done by today :( ) so I'll be taking plenty of pics. :)

does that actually show kph?

.............. yikes

You werent kidding about having to butcher the dash to get that to fit!
Looks like it belongs there, I am always impressed with the new ideas you keep coming up with for your interior. Will you still have the faceplate mounted in the visor?
James

maybe its me, but it just isnt my cup of tea. way too much goin on in there. but to each his own

I'm actually planning about mounting the headunit's faceplate in the center of my headliner right above the rear view mirror; I plan to fiberglass the entire headliner to make it rigid and fit better. :)

lookin sweet. what haven't you done to that car appearance wise? and whats next on the agenda?

Ok so I see the appeal, looks good so far :thumb:

Uploading pics from the carshow today, and then I'll even have some movies. Does anyone know if MPG or MP4 or something is more condensed than MOV? I did a movie of the GPS navigation, and a movie of me navigating the interface but it was like 14MB to 40MB.

i think u need to get some all black carpeting would make it look alot nicer

The sound is shitty because of the power inverter and the unshielded rca. When you invert a signal there is no more ground refference. Once you get your DC/DC atx supply you should be 100x better off.

I actually found out that the biggest problem with my sound is that the computer's sound setting was almost at mute, so I had to blast the sound to get it to come out, and hence it would REALLY blast the static. Once I turned the volume on the computer all the way up, then there was barely any static in the sound, I had it blasting at 20+ volume (10 is the level its at when you can hear it but there's no bass for reference, 25 is the highest I've ever pushed it) and it was sounding pretty dang good, just a little static. In any case, I have a bunch of media files now lol. Unfortunately these are HUGE.

http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20001.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20002.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20003.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20004.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20005.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20006.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20007.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20008.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20009.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20083.jpg

These are some high res ones.
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20080.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20081.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20082.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-22-05/SeasonFinale%20084.jpg

And here are some movies. The first two are of me turning with the GPS on, you can see it update as I turn. Works pretty good. The last movie, a whole 40mb, shows me using the interface going through some of the features.
http://meissenation.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=4nAlbum&file=index&do=showpic&pid=2380&orderby=titleA
http://meissenation.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=4nAlbum&file=index&do=showpic&gid=103&pid=2381&orderby=titleA
http://meissenation.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=4nAlbum&file=index&do=showpic&gid=103&pid=2382&orderby=titleA

What program are you running and what are the specs on the computer? Thank you!

Duff

The software is called Road Runner, that's the frontend that interfaces the mp3, gps, and all that together. The GPS software is called iGuidance. Specs of the comp are like 600mhz, 256mb, 20gb hdd. nothing too fancy

I saw your website and I'm interested in something of this!!! I've got several computers around here, just not the touchscreen (yet!) and don't fully understand the Road Runner. . . .not the cable service, thats the program? It runs in XP? i saw you said something about a GPS mouse????? Do you run a mouse on the computer or touch screen or both? Does the mouse relay to the computer info from the GPS satelites (sp.) Thank you!

Duff

Basically, Road Runner is just software that runs in XP. It works as your "front end" (and I think can be set as a replacement shell for Windows). It's fully compatible with the touch screen. As for the GPS mouse, that's just the "antenna" of sorts for the GPS to receive the sat signals. I don't run a mouse to move the cursor, just the touch screen.

That clears up alot for me now! Thank you. Didn't see much talking about prices on most of this. . . the GPS and screen are my price concerns. . . I can handle wiring and I've got a computer to spare. Thanks.

Duff

you said the sound was bad? How so ? Is it buzzing ? Do you have a ground loop isolator in there anywhere? If not you may want to pick one up from radio shack they help ALOT

For prices, it really wasn't all that bad. My screen was about $280 shipped off ebay, could've gotten the 8" one for like 20 more but my dad didn't for whatever reason. The GPS mouse itself you can get off ebay for decently cheap, I think about $50 or so... then you just need to download BitLord and do a search for an iGuidance torrent. ;)

Well at first the sound was horrid: I would have to turn my headunit up to ~25 just to hear the music, and it was a horrible sizzling noise that was a lot louder than the music. Yesterday when I was at a park at 9am saving our picnic area for the car show I was hosting, I took the carPC out and re-routed my GPS through the dash up to the dash pad, and then when I put it back in and turned it on and such, I went to click the GPS program in the tasktray, but it opened the volume control instead, and that's when I noticed my sound was almost at mute. I turned the volume all the way up, turned the music on, and tada music sounds great. There's still a sizzling noise in the background, but I think it's mostly because of the unshielded RCA plug, I was even thinking about just clipping the RCA jacks off all together and soldering the two wires together.

Here's some night pics in my car. The red glow all over is from my ambient red LED lighting (5 down the center of my headliner, one in each map light)

Some night shots:

http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20001.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20002.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20003.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20004.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20005.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20006.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20007.jpg

Some pics (although dark) of the internet on the carPC working. ;)

http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20008.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20009.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20010.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/10-23-05/carPC%20011.jpg

I thought I was connecting to my house's wireless network, but apparently I wasn't. When it scanned, it found two networks: linksys and bjamet or something, our network ssid is meissen, but since the one was linksys i knew it was unprotected, and sure enough it worked fine. lol

gotta love ppl that don't encrypt their networks. now you need to add bluetooth to it, and get a bluetooth cell phone with interent capability adn you will have interent anywhere

I actually already have a cable for my cell phone and software to turn my cell into a modem. Is that how people do that? I was thinking I could just use the connection my cellphone gets for the internet and somehow directly apply it to the carPC instead of having to use it as a modem.

Where can I see the software you're using website?

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=72 is the road runner software's forum. :)

iGuidance, dunno, google it. :)

Holy shyte, that looks great :thumb:
I didn't think it would look good when I first heard you write about doing it, but I was sure wrong
Good job man :cool:

i dont want to sound liek an asshole or anything but i dont like it .. at all. i think the idea is great, hell i want one myself, but i just think it looks like turd. Honestly i would take that bezel off and re-touch it. it seems like your fingerprints are embedded in it or something. but not only that, it just looks kind of cheap to me. i dunno. im just a big stickler for details and i wouldn't be able to function if my interior was as crazy as that.

Sorry if you hate me, just wanted to give my .02

Sorry.

lol it's all good, you're entitled to your opinion too. The finger prints aren't embedded into it, it's the flash making it show up more. :jest: Of course the bezel could've been done better, but for doing it myself and for it being the first time I've ever tried to do anything like this, I feel it came out pretty decent. To each their own. ;)

:cool: Adam West would be proud.

gotta love ppl that don't encrypt their networks. now you need to add bluetooth to it, and get a bluetooth cell phone with interent capability adn you will have interent anywhere

Not like it matters if its encrypted or not unless its WPA with RADIUS authentication all current popular wireless encryption standards are effectively useless. You are better off turning off your SSID broadcast and hoping noone can guess it.

But back on topic, looks great meissen. Nice work

That looks damn good. I agree that some all black carpet will definitely clean up the place.
James

lol carpetting and such are all planned, but I'm (surprisingly enough considering I just did this mod) unemployed and really short on money.

Powersupply came yesterday. Seems as though the seller sent me a defective unit, which I'm assuming is why he was selling in the first place. Trying to talk to the manufacturer to make sure it's defective, if so I'm going to try and return it to the seller. If he won't give me a refund, it'll be another month or two before I can afford another power supply. :( :( :(

Powersupply came yesterday. Seems as though the seller sent me a defective unit, which I'm assuming is why he was selling in the first place. Trying to talk to the manufacturer to make sure it's defective, if so I'm going to try and return it to the seller. If he won't give me a refund, it'll be another month or two before I can afford another power supply. :( :( :(

Booo! :gay: That's no fun! Did you buy it on ebay? If you don't mind me asking. Keep us posted!

Yeah, really kicking myself in the arse. I paid about $180 for it off ebay, when I could've gotten it for $170 from mp3car.com's store. DOH! Atleast a store I can trust more than a random seller.

Just to update, the company that the ebay seller bought the power supply from actually is allowing me to send the power supply to them, and they'll replace it for me as I guess these can be defective. So, she's been running off the inverter and regular 110 power supply. Finally got a streaming video, though, and it doesn't take long to load:

This video is a walkthrough of some of the main features of the carPC
http://videos.camaroz28.com/Player.aspx?fileid=4A38635B-6005-474E-A175-2FF7470C698D&p=0

Have you ever used anything but an inverter?

I've been thinking about the Opus 150 and how to wire it. Is that the one you got on e-bay?

I'm thinking I'll trigger the opus through the regular radio IGN wire. That is the wire that is controlled by RAP (retained accessory power).

I'm thinking I will power the monitor using that IGN line so that the monitor powers up and down just like the radio does. I like that plus it will turn the monitor off when you open the door. I'll probably set the opus to 20minute delay so that when you get out, the monitor turns off, but the computer stays running for another 20 minutes.

Turning off the engine doesn't turn off the radio for about 10 minutes (RAP) so that would be fine. I could turn off the engine and turn the key to ACC and the monitor won't even flicker.

I thought about doing it this way so that the monitor won't stay on after I get out of the car so as not to attract thieves. The monitor can be wired to turn on with IGN or ACC and will go off like I mentioned above.

Is this how you have yours setup or have you tried it like that?
If not, how is your monitor powered and controlled and do you like it that way?

I tried getting the Opus to work, but no luck. So it's just been running off the inverter and regular ATX power supply. The 150 is an excellent choice -- as long as it's not defective lol. I originally used the switched power source that goes to the radio, but I was only reading like 8v from that wire. I ended up running a wire straight to the radio's fuse, where I know it'd be a solid 12v switched with the ignition. I was planning on powering the monitor off of the opus as well, as the opus does have a few 12v outputs I could just use that. As for the shutdown delay, I'll be doing 10seconds. I don't really see the point of having it on after the car's off and you're walking away. It'll drain your battery fast. I already had to purchase a new battery because my old one just wouldn't power the carPC and radio and amp and subs for that long. My computer shuts down using hibernation mode, so how long it's running after the ignition is turned off is purely based off of how long you want it running when you're not in the car. In my case, with the inverter and ATX power supply, I also power the monitor right now off the inverter. It works decently, I get slight humming in my audio from the AC part of it, but it's not too bad. I have my carpet up covering the power supply and inverter as much as possible, so it's not TOO noticeable aside from the ATX power wires lol. I'm just dying to get the new Opus so I can get it 100% fully installed and finished, I don't mind manually pressing hibernate when I want it to power down and then flicking the inverter on and off with the car, but it would be nice not to have to worry about that anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the lilliputs made for car use and have a range of voltages that you would see in a car? Like from 11-14 or around that? I meant to check, but I'm not sure.

What I planned was powering the monitor from the car battery (plenty of voltage) and then use a relay in that circuit that was triggered by the IGN line. Whether I powered the monitor from the PSU or the car I still planned to use a simple relay to make sure the monitor acted like the radio as far as powering up and down.

I haven't really decided what delay I would use on the opus. 20 minutes sounds nice, but like you said, it may be a bit too long. The 10 seconds may work out better. I figure if I want to keep the puter on while getting out I can turn the key from RUN to ACC in less than a second or 2 so that may be the way to go. It's just one of many details I have yet to figure out.

You also mentioned yu had a 10" screen in the car. What happened to it? Why go with a smaller screen?
I plan to use a 10" in my car so any info would be appreciated.

how much would it cost just to do the carputer? and where can you buy it from? Looks good! i really like the carbon fibre center console!

Check out the pic below for a rough guidline.
If you already have a PC them that saves a lot of money. GPS can be added for about $80 plus some "found" software on the web. The biggest PSU would be the Opus 150watt at $160 instead of the M1 at $80.

So basically, $270-$300 for a nice monitor and $160 for a good DC-DC PSU. The computer is up to you.

Monitors and PSU's can be got at MP3car:
http://www.mp3car.com/store/

They do have a wide range of inputs, but again same with the whole power regulator situation, voltage drops dramatically during engine crank, which could then potentially damage the electronics of the monitor. Having it wired through a 12v source of the opus will protect it, some even say to use a fuse between the opus and the monitor but that seems overkill IMO.

As for the 10" screen, my original carPC that I purchased was a 10.5" touchscreen kiosk. I had the entire bezel fiberglassed and ready and went to install it when I realized the motherboard on the kiosk PC was way too large to be installed in the car. So, that's when I purchased the Via Epia mini-ITX motherboard. Well, the kiosk PC's motherboard was proprietary and the touchscreen & LCD would not work on the Via Epia motherboard, so by that point it was either reverse engineer the plug that was made for the LCD and the touchscreen, or just buy a new screen. I decided to go with a smaller screen, which really is a better decision IMO as the 10.5" just did not fit right, and the bezel was huge. Atleast with this system that I have now, it's just a customized stock bezel and it fits right, I really didn't change too much of the bezel to get the screen to fit. Also, when the screen is right there, 7" is a pretty good size to press buttons and stuff. :)

For my entire setup, roughly a grand is how much I spent, but that's including the original kiosk PC that I spent $150 on, and parts that I ended up not using. Not bad, though, if you ask me... for the price of a new computer, I got a new computer in my car lol. Thanks for the compliments on the carbon fiber console, so far it's been mixed on what I really think of it. The shifter piece works well, but the console lid isn't as good so I'll probably end up redoing that.

Looking Good. Rex

:thumb: Thanks Rex. :D

i have to agree it is a little to musy for me also but the main thing is it is your can you do toit as you please.

I think the camera really does play tricks on that, though. When you're actually in the car or seeing it in person, it really doesn't seem busy at all. The red is there, but you don't really notice it all that much. S'all good, though, to each their own, I wasn't modding my car for other people to like it, I'm modding it for myself. :)

I see a few people have commented on how Meissens PC doesn't look "good enough" for them. Keep in mind you can do them any number of ways. Molding in a screen can be done so many ways, your only limited to your imagination. Here are a few pics of other F-body installs. See what you think.

I see a few people have commented on how Meissens PC doesn't look "good enough" for them. Keep in mind you can do them any number of ways. Molding in a screen can be done so many ways, your only limited to your imagination. Here are a few pics of other F-body installs. See what you think.

Now those look professionally done!

Yeah, I'm seriously jealous of people with 97+ interiors because they have the lovely dash that is MADE for the screens. Unfortunately, mine wasn't, so I had quite a bit of custom molding that I had to do to get mine to work.

Now those look professionally done!
My point is that none of those are professionally done. They were all done by normal guys building stuff in their house.

I think Meissen's unit could look 100 times better with another coat of bondo to fill the low spots and some more sanding. Then maybe a textured finish in flat or semi flat black. That would give it a stock look for sure. I mean, you already did a lot of work and have a nice molded shape. Your just 90% there.

In my opinion, I think the monitor buttons really give it away that it's not stock. You would never see those buttons on a Lexus, etc...

So Meissen, what you might consider doing (if you really don't need front access to those buttons) would be to move that little circuit board to the side or rear or some place out of the way and fill in the button holes. What that would let you do is wrap the whole unit in a nice matching vinyl.

I'm around car audio guys all the time and they could stretch and wrap the vinyl around that and made it look like it came with the car. Seriously.

Have you considered that?

Didn't think of that, but there's always going to be more versions of the bezel. I already am at the point that I have to rework it, all the installing and uninstalling the carPC trying to get the power supply to work stressed the joint where the screen meets the bezel, so there's a line that shows. So, at some point before the end of winter (since the car is mostly down for that time now) i'll be redoing it. Truthfully, I'd ideally like to get my hands on a 98+ interior because that would make the install 1000x easier.

I think you have a pretty good setup right there. You already put a lot of work into it and the overall shape works well. Just epoxy that bexel in place to make it really strong, fill the low spots and get it nice and smooth, not perfect, and have a car stereo shop cover it in vinyl. The vinyl will hide a lot of the small imperfections, as will textured paint.

The pro's use a high quality vinyl capable of being heated and stretched and some industrial strength glue to bond it onto the piece. It can be folded around the edges of the screen to make it look really good. Maybe call around and find a place that does good vinyl work and once you get the money, have them go over it.

You would also need to fab up a little trim piece to go around the bottom to hide that gap. Maybe mold the USB plugs into it. Or else make a hinged door to keep it clean looking and then fold it down to plug the USB stuff in.

Hey, since your using that little Epia mobo why are you getting that big, expensive Opus PSU?

Why not get your money back (if you can) and get the smaller, cheaper M1-ATX for $75.

Hey, since your using that little Epia mobo why are you getting that big, expensive Opus PSU?

Why not get your money back (if you can) and get the smaller, cheaper M1-ATX for $75.

Well I looked at the ones that were available and used the power consumption calculators that they have and it came to about 130w being used, so the 90 wasn't enough. The opus power supply really isn't that bad because it will fit behind the screen perfectly, so it won't be seen.

Do you have the link to that power calculator?
If not, was it from Opus?
All the ones I've seen didn't show the Epia mobo's, just AMD, Intel and servers.

I've seen guys run the newwer 1.3Mhz boards with the screen and optical drives and 3.5 HDDs and the M1 powered it with no problem.

Usually the bigger 150 Opus is for the bigger machines like the AMD and Intel boards.

But if it fits fine and it's working for you then stick with it. It never hurts to have the extra power.

Don't remember where it was from, I think it was a link off mp3car.com's forums. If I would've known the M1 would've worked I would've gone with that! lol. Darn, I highly doubt mp3car.com would allow me to return the powersupply and get an M1 instead since I didn't technically buy it from them in the first place.

Here's the only Power Calculator I have found:
http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/

Also keep in mind that those figures are when the parts are maxed out, like 100% CPU load, etc... Also keep in mind that the PSU's are rated to maintain their wattage at the lowest of voltages. The Opus 150w for instance maintains that 150w down to 8 volts. So at higher voltages, it can supply quite a bit more than 150w. If your car only dips down to 10 volts under cranking, for instance, and your computer is not under 100% load at the time of cranking, then a system rated at 200w might easily work well off of a 150 watt PSU.

I've seen a bunch of instances where guys where using a bigger system than their rated PSU, yet it still runs fine. The M1 for instance maintains that power down to 6 volts! I doubt my voltage would ever drop that low under cranking, so I assume it packs packs more of a punch than it's rated 90 watts.

I think I fried my old ATX mobo and athlon 1000 the other day. With that mobo I was going to get the Opus 150 for sure, but now I have to buy all new stuff so I'm going to get the VIA SP13000. The 1.3Ghz version of the little Epia mobo's. I read a review of the dual 1000Mhz Epia mobo and I can't remember the exact number, but I think the whole mobo only used 25 watts total. Each 1Ghz CPU used only 4 watts and the rest was from the RAM, integreted video, sound, etc...

My Athlon 1Ghz uses 50watts at full load by itself!. Just the CPU. So I Know those little boards use very little and your using the 600Mhz version (I believe) so I'm sure it's at or under 25 watts for the whole board at full load. Add your accessories to the total wattage and then figure out how low the voltage drops while cranking your car.

Now I see how all those people get away using a PSU that is technically "under powered" to run their systems. Makes sense, huh?

Even if you have to keep the 150w, that's OK. As long as it fits. Plus you can add a bunch of crap to it later. Power the LCD with it, fans, drives, lights, the whole shebang without worry. :)

I was talking to Snootch (http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50883) and he mentioned his dash system gets real hot in the summer after being parked in the sun. Afterwards the PC won't come on until the interior temps go down some. That ever happened to you?

So far I haven't had that problem, but it's only been in for a month. Mind you, mine's also fanless too. The heat extractors get warm to the touch, but not "burning" hot or anything. I'm really interested to see how she runs year round, including this winter. My car's been sitting for the past week or two because they were talking flurries (which of course never came, damn waste of cruise time) but Saturday through Monday they're only talking partly cloudy, so I'll have her out on those days... we'll see how the carPC does starting up in 40 degrees. :) IMO, the most fun of this entire project is the learning experience and the tinkering. I actually just installed a Windows 2003 server on my home network last night, so I can have VPN server capabilities running... With that, I can literally get a secure, encrypted connection to my home network from anywhere as long as I have an internet connection. This is going to be very fun, considering the entire county I live in is going to be wireless by next year. :) I was ALMOST tempted to try voice recognition and installing AIM, I could only imagine how fun it'd be to get IM's while I'm driving, and then just saying what I want, then saying "Send" and having it send the IM for me all handsfree. If I did it that way, I'd also encorporate it to read the IMs to me, so I could literally have the entire setup handsfree and also be able to keep my eyes on the road. :)

Jeez! That's not asking too much is it? :)

I would settle for web and network access to my home computer from the driveway. Anything else would be cake.

I'll have to ask you about finding networks and such in a car once I get my sh1t together and actually in the car. If more parts keeps breaking on me it will be well into 2006 before I get it working. :(

Winter should be fine for the puters, but summer might be another story. You may need a fan on it once summer rolls around.

The network part is really easy, surprisingly. I have a USB wireless network adapter, so I just plug it in and it scans for a wireless network to connect to. Usually it finds multiples, and a general rule of thumb is that if the SSID name is "linksys" they haven't encrypted or protected their wireless network at all. :)

I see a few people have commented on how Meissens PC doesn't look "good enough" for them. Keep in mind you can do them any number of ways. Molding in a screen can be done so many ways, your only limited to your imagination. Here are a few pics of other F-body installs. See what you think.

Anyone know what size screen that is in the 3rd pic ?

Anyone know what size screen that is in the 3rd pic ?
The one named Curious? That is a 7" widescreen. Same size as Meissens screen. That is a popular size, so there are many models available.

Dude, save up for a V8 then do some engine work, interior is for gangsters and people who dont have enough HP to be satisfyd.

Dude, save up for a V8 then do some engine work, interior is for gangsters and people who dont have enough HP to be satisfyd.
Dude, he's only 20 and unemployed (temporarily). When I was 20, I was rolling in a crap 78 chevy PU in primer. You remember what it was like to be young, don't ya? Cut him some slack, man. At 20 I could only dream of a ride like his.

BTW, he mentioned something about dropping a 383 in later, so look out. He'll be flying past you! :)

Hey, I was looking for something else and ran across this thread about using vinyl. Snootch knows what he's talking about.

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25243

Haha, not like it makes a difference, but yeah not even 20! Just turned 19 a few months ago. :) I wanted to go for the car show crowd first before dropping the power in. I don't know if it's just a detroit thing or what, but everyone around here that mods their engine always has their car down in the shop, I want to be able to drive my car and enjoy it on a daily basis (which I do now) so an engine upgrade isn't important yet.

Anyway, Sweet find, Jason! :thumb: I'm getting quite antsy to get another job so I can really get back to work on doing all this. Once I get the PSU and can test it and make sure it's all working and get the PSU siliconed into place, I'll probably rework the exterior a little bit just to make it work better. Hardest part with these types of projects is doing it, you always learn things to change once it's in, but when you're actually making it the first time it all is so hard to figure out, haha.

Dude, save up for a V8 then do some engine work, interior is for gangsters and people who dont have enough HP to be satisfyd.

Dumbest post of the day goes to you.

This has been a very informative thread, let's try to keep it on track and not start with flames or bashing. :)

Meissenation, did you mention what kind of sound card you are using, or is it the built in sound from the mobo?

lol that's actually one of the great parts! I'm using the built in sound card, which then the audio out has a 35mm microphone jack on one end, and two RCA jacks on the other end... that then plugs into a special plug for my headunit. So literally straight out from the motherboard to the headunit. The sound is great, and actually amplified a little more than the regular headunit was. Before, I considered 20 to be loud enough, and now I rarely put it higher than 17 or 18. A lot of people go on about buying USB audio cards or external audigy cards, but truthfully I'm quite impressed with how well it's working on it's own.

OK. I just recently tried the best sound card I had, a $150 Hercules Game Theater and I didn't like the sound quality at all. I doubt I would like the onboard sound chip of the VIA mobo's as well. I imagine I'll need something that would be used in a competition setting so I've been looking at Pro sound cards. I'm trying to find a high end 2-channel card that isn't too expensive. So far I've found the ESI Juli@ at about $140.
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/esi-julia/

I'm still looking around, though. Thanks.

black carpets thats all you need for the sickest interior around.

Haha, that's one of the many things to do this winter. ;)

Surprised about the sound card, though, Jason. I don't know if I'm just not picky, if I just don't hear the difference, or what, but it sounded pretty darn good from the Via sound card, definitely comparable to the headunit's quality.

Cha-ching! I received the new power supply today, mp3car.com's store was kind enough to exchange the power supplys even though it was the ebay seller that purchased the power supply from them. In any case, I took the power supply straight out of the box, plugged it into my car, turned the key and... IT TURNED ON! Words can't explain how excited I am and relieved that the carPC is finally fully operational and in-dash; no more ugly inverter and standard power supply sitting on the passenger side floor. I then went and grabbed a female IDE plug I had laying around in the basement, soldered the power supply for the screen to the 12v and ground wire of the ide power plug, and tada it worked great. We're getting about 8" of snow tonight, but after it's all removed from the driveway, I'll back the car out and take an updated picture of the carPC with natural light, that will change a lot of how those pics look. The flash just ruins the justice to coloring and such.

The audio, also, sounds great by the way. There's no static in the background anymore, so it truely was just a problem with using the AC/DC inverter. I blasted the sound and it sounds great. Now I just want to :drive: :drive: :drive:

That's good news.

I'm using an inverter on my temperary setup now and it creates wicked ground loops which causes hums in the background. Sucks big time. I figured a good DC-DC PSU would do the trick.

Where are you putting the PSU, in the dash, glovebox?

Jason WW tried ground loop isolators ?

Congrats on the finished install meissen, cant wait to see pics, and hope to see it in person one day :)

I actually just set the power supply on the inside of the bezel, so it's all enclosed inside the dash. I'll try taking a few pics now, and then maybe photoshop a darker carpet so people won't bitch about the ugly gray. :jest:

Edit: Ok, definitely come to the conclussion that using flash on the inside of a car while it's in the garage SUCKS. The only pic that looked relatively decent was this one:
http://mifbody.com/files/carPC%20002.jpg

The wires that are visible I didn't even notice until after I took the pic, the dang flash shows so much that you don't see under normal lighting. But, aside from the wires that are going to my headunit in the glovebox, there's no carPC-related wires. ;)

Here's a little view of the weather outside right now (this just started within the past hour and the ground is already covered)
http://mifbody.com/files/snow%20004.jpg

Jason WW tried ground loop isolators ?
I plan to get an Opus 150w just like Meissen has so I haven't really tried anything besides various grounding straps between all the parts in different combinations. Nothing worked. I may try the ground loop isolators as I think I have some around here somewhere.

BTW, I found a Chaintech AV710 sound card locally for $30. I used the high sampling rate on channels 7 & 8 and I have to say the sound is amazing. Easily as good as my Clarion HU. Plenty of volume as well.

I also forgot to mention that I created a thread on the MP3CAR forum that has all the f-body installs I could find. Hopefully this will give you guys some ideas of all the different ways you can put a PC in your car. Enjoy:
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63949

Looking good.

Lookin' forward to some pics! We got slammed with snow here in PA as well last night into today! I feel your pain!

well I probably won't be posting pics until later tomorrow. Got caught up working on vbulletin for my website, so i didn't get a chance to take the car out of the garage.

Doesn't this snow suck Meisse? Seriously, what the hell is the point of snowing 5+ inches just to all melt away the next day? I'm not complaining that it's melting, but wtf?? Such a big mess the roads were last night and this morning.

Anways, I don't want to hijack your thread, the carpc looks great and if I wasn't having so many mechanical problems I might have invested in that. BTW, I'm trying to sell my Kenwood ddx-7015 if you know anybody that's interested. Its mint, been in the car for one spring and one summer.

Ugh, I can't stand this snow. With the power supply finally working, and I finally got a redtop battery the day before, I could finally cruise if it weren't for all this blasted snow. I've driven her through two winters, and granted it went ok both times, with the recently fresh paint, I really don't want to get anything like salt or excessive road grime on the paint. Even with her sitting in the garage, I've been using the california duster on her everyday. :jest: PM me some specs on your Kenwood, I'll post it up on my website -- mifbody.com.

Thanks! PM Sent and I just signed up to your site!

Well, it's snowing and 30ish outside, but I shovelled the driveway, pulled the car out, washed her down (I was naughty and took my car for a cruise last weekend to a club meeting, I wanted to testout the carPC and make sure the opus works 100%) and then snapped a few pics in the daylight. The carpet atleast doesn't look so bad, hopefully Santa will give me new carpet for christmas. ;) :D

Only bad part is that apparently my waffle weave microfiber drying towels weren't tested in the winter, cause they just won't dry the car, was just moving the water around. :( Anyway here's two pics of my wet car, and then some interior pics of the carPC. :)

http://meissenation.com/pictures/12-16-05/RedAlert%20001.jpg
http://meissenation.com/pictures/12-16-05/RedAlert%20002.jpg
http://meissenation.com/pictures/12-16-05/RedAlert%20003.jpg
http://meissenation.com/pictures/12-16-05/RedAlert%20004.jpg
http://meissenation.com/pictures/12-16-05/RedAlert%20005.jpg
http://meissenation.com/pictures/12-16-05/RedAlert%20006.jpg

exterior looks great, but you have too many red accents inside. id stick to black and CF

I see a few people have commented on how Meissens PC doesn't look "good enough" for them. Keep in mind you can do them any number of ways. Molding in a screen can be done so many ways, your only limited to your imagination. Here are a few pics of other F-body installs. See what you think.


Yeah I know this is an old thread, I just wanted to ask where did you find the first set of pics of the CarPC in the LS1 camaro. I have been going to mp3car.com for a while now, I saw snootch's set up a long time back and I was impressed with how clean it was. I was just never aware there was a way to get the monitor into the dash without having to relocate the HVAC controls. Anyway, if you have more details on that let me know. Im in the process of getting my stuff together for my CarPC I bought a VIA EPIA 13000 a while back, been waiting on a good deal for a Lilliput monitor.

The main concern I have right now is what kind of crap Im going to have to do when I remove the stock headunit. I believe I should be able to just run a RCA/mic adapter straight from the mobo to the monsoon amp, although I dont know what kind of desireable or undesireable sound that may produce. I basically dont want to have to buy anything more than the basics, mobo, HD, PSU, LCD.

Depends on how much of an ear you have. I think I'm deaf from all the blasting music, my sound straight from the mobo to the headunit sounds great to me. I'm guessing Jason has a better ear though. :D I'm with you, though, I never had seen doing it without moving the HVAC controls; but 97+ people sure have the advantage with their interiors. When I rework my bezel in the near future, I'm going to try and make mine have the same shape as the 97+ radio bezel, more square.. dunno how it'll turn out since it's in the 93-96 interior, but probably will look better than how it is now. In Jason's thread on mp3car.com, I noticed there was the idea of cutting the hvac into two pieces, I think that's also a really interesting idea of molding two of the hvac dials into the console's cubby hole, while the third one that you don't use as much could go in the glovebox. In any case, it's never easy in our cars, regardless of 93-02.




Edit: As a side note for those of you in cold areas, I've been driving my car on and off through the winter and thus far no problems with startup on cold days. I think the coldest I've experienced has been like 10 degrees, computer still started up no problem. I did notice, though, that *apparently* the Opus still supplies power to the USB port even though the car is off, potentially draining your battery if you leave it sit for too long. I've replaced my battery twice already, and had to recharge the brand new redtop battery a couple times, and while the actual problem seemed to be a faulty capacitor draining my battery, my USB GPS mouse was still receiving power while the car and computer was off, might not be much, but something to keep in the back of your mind. Also, there's been reports of iGuidance not working well with USB GPS mice when you're booting up from hibernation, and I've actually noticed that since I got the Opus power supply (maybe because it's always supplying power???) I have experienced excellent GPS load time, usually the GPS is working by the time I leave the subdivision, whereas before it'd take 5-10 minutes for the GPS to work.

Yeah I know this is an old thread, I just wanted to ask where did you find the first set of pics of the CarPC in the LS1 camaro. I have been going to mp3car.com for a while now, I saw snootch's set up a long time back and I was impressed with how clean it was. I was just never aware there was a way to get the monitor into the dash without having to relocate the HVAC controls. Anyway, if you have more details on that let me know.
Did you read my post above?
I also forgot to mention that I created a thread on the MP3CAR forum that has all the f-body installs I could find. Hopefully this will give you guys some ideas of all the different ways you can put a PC in your car. Enjoy:
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63949

Did you read my post above?


Sorry man, I did camaro searches on mp3car before and it never came up with anything other than a few sloppy attempts on some LT1s. I never saw anything like the pics posted by you done to a camaro on that site, Ill have to check again.

Completely overlooked the link the first time, my bad.

Where did you get all your carbon fiber pieces from? Carbon Fiber = Sex

lol I have to agree on that one. <3 Carbon fiber. I actually wrapped the pieces myself, and will likely be doing a few more pieces by Spring... but the two pieces I'm doing has never, ever been done before so it'll be an interesting venture into the unknown. ;)

I did notice, though, that *apparently* the Opus still supplies power to the USB port even though the car is off, potentially draining your battery if you leave it sit for too long.
Do you think your opus is putting the PC in standby or idle mode?
Doesn't the Opus have a hard off option?
I can't remember, but I thought I saw something about the opus (and all PS's) maintaining power to the mobo even when off. Have you tried going into the BIOS and turnng off the "wake from LAN" or something like that? Your mobo might be suppling power to that circuit, but the opus should have a jumper to perform a hard off (after 5 hours?). That way it is turned off completely. I remember seeing something like that, but I can't find it at the moment.
Maybe try looking in the opus threads. Surely your not the only one this has happened to. Hopefully there is an easy fix.

Most PC power supplies (ATX anyway) will supply I believe it is 2.6v to the PCI bus (others too depending on the board) even when the power is off. You may want to try tweaking with the ACPI power settings in the BIOS though.

On the other hand 2.6v drawing practically nothing would take a REALLY long time to drain your battery

Couldnt you just make a switch that completely disconnects the PSU from the battery?

Couldnt you just make a switch that completely disconnects the PSU from the battery?
That's what he used to do with the inverter. It sucks. I'm sure he doesn't want to go back to that, plus if you forget one time, BAM. Dead battery.

Hundreds of users are using the Opus 150 and it works well for them. There's got to be a proper solution to the problem.

The PSU does hibernation mode, so it turns it off completely.

Yeah, let me give the whole story instead of just the nutshell. When I first installed the carPC in the car using the invertor and then a regular ATX PSU, I had also taken the time to install a capacitor too. I let the car sit for 4 days, battery was dead. Bought a new battery since I was using atleast a 4 year old battery, swapped it in, no problem. The car sat for 2 days, battery was dead. Charged it with our battery charger, a few days later it was dead again. Took the battery back and had the auto store test it, test said the battery was bad. Bought the red top, at some point or another the battery died, don't remember how long it sat. I had swapped the invertor out around the same time as installing the redtop and had put the Opus in, so I figured it couldn't be the carPC draining the battery while the car was off because I had used two seperate power supplies. Disconnected the capacitor, and so far I haven't had a dead battery yet. So, I don't think the draw is too much to worry about, but none the less something to atleast keep in mind. If my battery dies again, I'll let y'all know. If it supplying a low amount of power to the USB port is why my UPS GPS mouse has been working so great, and as long as the battery doesn't die again, then I'm happy with that lol.

sorry im not feeling it :(

It's all good, no worries. The 93-96 dash is impossible to put a 7" screen in and have it still look good, no matter what it just ruins the lines. If it weren't for the fact that I'd have to upgrade the gauge cluster too, I'd switch over to a 97+ dash since that's the easiest dash to put the bezel in. Regardless of the looks of the bezel, it sure is damn :cool: having the touchscreen, GPS, 500+ mp3s, wireless internet access, and Duck Hunt at your fingertips molded into the dash, passengers absolutely love it, and of course I love driving and having the GPS on screen... it's great when there's a traffic jam and you can look and see all the routes through the neighborhood streets next to you that you can cut through to get further ahead of the traffic. :D

Battery died again, took out the amp meter to measure what's drawing. Sure enough, the Opus power supply is drawing about 1/3rd an amp every hour, which is why the battery drains if it sits for too long without running. I guess that's why Opus's instructions says to install an inline switch to turn it off... ;)

Battery died again, took out the amp meter to measure what's drawing. Sure enough, the Opus power supply is drawing about 1/3rd an amp every hour, which is why the battery drains if it sits for too long without running. I guess that's why Opus's instructions says to install an inline switch to turn it off... ;)

Thats sucks, so basically if youre going out of town leaving your car at the airport (as I often do) then you have to disconnect the carputer from the battery every time and if you forget just once you have a dead battery. Is the Opus the only PSU that does this or do all of them do this?

The Opus is considered the best of all the dc-dc PSU's. No way they could have this problem with so many people using them. There has to be a setting or something that will fix your drainage problem.

I'll look around on the MP3car.com site myself.

This is from the opus 150 owners manual:
"The normal full load operating voltage range of the power supply is between 7V to 18VDC. The micro controller monitors the battery voltage so the battery will not be deep discharged. When the ignition switch is in the aux position or delayed turn off enabled the computer can be powered up. Under this condition the engine is not running, so the battery is not being charged. When the battery voltage dips below 11V for more than 10 seconds continually the SFX- DC-DC power supply will enter automatically into a shutdown sequence. This will protect the battery from deep discharge, and the battery is saved for its main intended purpose, to start the vehicle."

It could very well be your GPS that is drawing a lot of power. I forgot if your using a USB GPS or not, but if it's a USB you can split the loom open and take the power wire and run it through a small relay. That way the GPS will be turned off when the PC turns off.

I saw where a guy mentioned that the voltage threshold that the Opus uses before turning off (10 volts) can be changed, but I don't have details yet.

Check this thread:
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53247
It mentions disabling the 5vsb (5 volt stand by).

Another thread to check out:
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=56519
and
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51939

You may also be able to wire a relay into the 5vsb wire between the PSU and the mobo. The purple wire. http://pinouts.ru/data/atxpower_pinout.shtml

I'm just throwing things out there. Brian, try unplugging your GPS the next time you are not going to drive your car for a few days and see how the it responds.

lol damn man, talk about bein helpful! :thumbsup: Appreciate all that, Jason! Probably what I'm going to do is just throw an inline switch inline with the 12v battery wire, that way when the car's just sitting for periods of time, I can just flick the wire off and it'll be fine. If you're driving the car every day or even every other day for more than 5 minutes at a time, I'm guessing the alternator would charge the battery back up so it wouldn't be a problem, only if you let it sit for too long that it dips down. I'm honestly not too worried about it, simple switch and s'all good. I'm probably going to invest in that ashtray switch panel that someone posted in that "custom ashtray" thread and then use one of those switches for the carPC. :) I'll try unplugging the USB GPS and see what happens -- I have a feeling that's actually what the root of the problem is, the powersupply otherwise is only a blinking LED when the car's off.

I'm starting to think the 5vsb line is what is getting you. You do have a USB GPS mouse, right? I see were those have caused other people problems when the car sits for a few days.

If you find out that is what is causing the drain, then buy a short USB extension cable, cut the sheath off, cut the positive and maybe the negative wires in half (only the positive should work) and then simply use a 12v DPDT relay on those 2 wires and a 12v trigger from the PSU. When the PSU cuts off power to the 12v rail it will also cut power to the USB mouse. That way the GPS will only recieve power when the PC is powered up. It may sound complicated, but it's pretty simple once you know how a relay works.

If you know what a DPDT relay is and how to wire it, then you can fix your problem right there. if you don't know, then I can explain how they work. I think this would be a lot better than remembering to flip a switch.

Yeah, I have the Delorme USB GPS mouse. That'd explain what I said in a few posts back about how the UPS GPS mouse is still on while the car is off, dang noticed it awhile ago and never put two and two together that that was my problem. :D I'll tell my dad about it, his original idea was to wire a relay in to the 12v battery wire so that when there's no 12v switched source giving power, the battery wire will be cut off too, and then when the 12v switched source is on, the relay will connect the 12v battery wire, but that just seemed like it ruined the point of the power supply lol.

Hey, did you hear about the new M2 PSU? It's just like the M1, but built up to put out 160w. It's only $90 also. I don't think the M1 or M2 has the USB drain that the Opus has. Maybe you could sell the Opus for at least $90 and then buy the M2. Something to think about.
http://www.mp3car.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=171

Yeah I was looking into the M1 like Snootch had in his carpc writeup but now that I see the M2 is pretty much on par with the opus I think its a better option for less cost. Ill probably wind up getting it.

Man, I went through 3 of the M2's and had trouble with them all. I got the Opus 150 and it's been working like a charm so far.

I wanted to bring up something we were talking about before. Right now I have the PC trigger wire hooked up to the radio power wire. Since our cars have RAP, I have to turn off the engine and open the door before the signal is sent to the Opus. Then I wait 10 seconds and watch it shutdown. I thought this would be the way to go, but I'm not liking it. I think I would rather have the trigger wired into a regualar ign source. If I want to leave the PC on I can switch the key to acc, but so far the RAP takes too long. I find myself opening the door and then sitting there to make sure it starts going off. I need it to start turning off sooner.

My question is: Is there a non-RAP ign wire I can use as a trigger around the radio area?
If anyone knows, holler. Thanks.

Hmmm not sure... You'd probably have to figure out something that turns off immediately with the car... maybe have to do a relay with the actual ignition wire. For me, I noticed that if I turned the car off, got out of the car, walked around to the passenger side, if I did it at a normal pace that by the time I got around to the passenger side it'd be turning off. Sucks about the M2s, were you atleast able to get your money back? Glad about the opus though, it's been a real pleasure having mine now that I got it all figured out. I noticed mp3car lowered the price down to $120, too.. not bad of a price.

I actually JUST finished my rework of the bezel. Lessons learned from the past though, I shalt not post too many pictures here until the entire interior is finished and thy wires are hidden. ;)

I dropped the edges down another inch or so, it drops it closer to the center console and makes it an easier flow from the bezel to the console. There's also some hints from the console in the bezel... the "ridge" on the left bottom is mimicking the ridges of the console where it goes from the shift plate to the cubby hole. The right bottom is nice and smooth curve like the right side of the center console.

Here's a sneak peak of the updated bezel before I put it in the car:
http://meissenation.com/pictures/4-3-06/carPC%20007.jpg
http://meissenation.com/pictures/4-3-06/carPC%20008.jpg

Also gives a sneak peak of what the interior is looking like. Let's just say, you better like '77 corvette interiors. :) I have some panels still needing to be installed and the new carpet needs to be tucked in fully, but once it's all together again I'll post some full pics and let the savages of LS1tech rip it apart. ;)

Sucks about the M2s, were you atleast able to get your money back? Glad about the opus though, it's been a real pleasure having mine now that I got it all figured out. I noticed mp3car lowered the price down to $120, too.. not bad of a price.
The guys at the MP3store were real cool. I'm just paying the difference in price between the M2 $90 and the Opus 150 $120. So like $30 more. I did have to spend about $20 extra in order to ship the old M2's back. I'm just relieved it's all working. I also have a new AMD 3000+ in there as well so it's plenty fast.

So your going to paint it all red? I felt pretty strong about using vinyl to give it a nice factory look, but the red looks good. Are the button holes painted or do they just look white from the reflection?

Didn't you have the PSU wired up to a regular (non-RAP) IGN source earlier? I thought that's what you said, but I can't remember and I'm too lazy to reread this thread. :)

Well, the bottom half of the dash is all red. The top half is all black... I thought ALL red would be a little too much, but the way it is now it's bright but not overwhelming. It looks pretty good with the carpet and everything, IMO atleast haha.

Well my solid state 12v wire goes straight from the battery, the other 12v switched source goes to the fuse panel and hooks into the radio's fuse (I was getting a more clean source of power from the fuse than I was getting splicing into the power wire to the headunit for some reason). Actually, now that I think about it, if you had an inline switch you could just use the battery connection for the 12v switched source too... although it wouldn't go on automatically with the car anymore kinda ruins the point I guess lol. I used the Jimmy Jam's Nitrous Accessories ashtray switch panel for my inline switch from the battery, that way if I leave the car sit for a week or two, I can just cut the power from the battery to the Opus just to make sure nothing is draining.

Man, I went through 3 of the M2's and had trouble with them all. I got the Opus 150 and it's been working like a charm so far.

I wanted to bring up something we were talking about before. Right now I have the PC trigger wire hooked up to the radio power wire. Since our cars have RAP, I have to turn off the engine and open the door before the signal is sent to the Opus. Then I wait 10 seconds and watch it shutdown. I thought this would be the way to go, but I'm not liking it. I think I would rather have the trigger wired into a regualar ign source. If I want to leave the PC on I can switch the key to acc, but so far the RAP takes too long. I find myself opening the door and then sitting there to make sure it starts going off. I need it to start turning off sooner.

My question is: Is there a non-RAP ign wire I can use as a trigger around the radio area?
If anyone knows, holler. Thanks.

Wow man that sucks, Personally my experience with my M2 (so far) is that I really like it. It turns off in 2 seconds like its supposed to which I really like. Overall I have not have one single problem with it since I had it, and whats funny is this was the one part I EXPECTED to have trouble with. Also, just FYI I wired my PC through my Fuse panel. The batt and ign fuses. When I turn off my car without even opening the door in 2 seconds the PC turns itself off. The only way for me to keep it on without the car being on is to have the key turned to acc. Not sure if thats exactly what you wanted but it works for me.

I actually JUST finished my rework of the bezel. Lessons learned from the past though, I shalt not post too many pictures here until the entire interior is finished and thy wires are hidden. ;)

I dropped the edges down another inch or so, it drops it closer to the center console and makes it an easier flow from the bezel to the console. There's also some hints from the console in the bezel... the "ridge" on the left bottom is mimicking the ridges of the console where it goes from the shift plate to the cubby hole. The right bottom is nice and smooth curve like the right side of the center console.


Hey man that looks a lot better than before and yeah thats a good idea to hide the rest till its done, lol. Cant wait to see it when its finished!

I was hoping one of the radio wires was IGN but not through the RAP. I can tap a wire from around the fuse area, but I would need to extend the wiring, etc...

The M2 should turn off after 10 seconds once the trigger wire is removed. Not 2 seconds. The timing my be off on yours. Personally I'd like my turn on and off timings on the Opus to go from 10 seconds down to 3 or 4 seconds. I'm using the S3 suspend so it comes on really quick, but it has that 10 second delay which is a tad too long. The 10 second turn off delay after RAP releases means I'm out of the car, the door is closed and the music is still playing! Once I get the IGN wire changed it will probably be OK. I'd still like to mod it to come on sooner then it would be just like a regular stereo. :)

The M2 should turn off after 10 seconds once the trigger wire is removed. Not 2 seconds.

Interesting, in my instuction manual it says 2 seconds. Maybe you had an older version? I dont have it in front of me at the moment, but it was like shutdown 2 seconds, hardoff 2 hours, or something in that range. Ill check again later, maybe you are right.

Hey man that looks a lot better than before and yeah thats a good idea to hide the rest till its done, lol. Cant wait to see it when its finished!

Thanks, I appreciate it! I posted pictures on my own site that I run, has about 150 active members to the forum, and everyone always gives the thumbs up on my appearance mods, sometimes I wonder how many of them are just saying it just because I'm the admin lol. I'm planning to have it all finished by the weekend, got a car show on Saturday to go to.



2 seconds sure seems like it'd be nicer than the 10 seconds, I'll give ya that much. I wonder if there's some way to tweak the Opus to do it.

Hey, I just ran across your other thread on your new interior. You got to give us a heads up. :)
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=485792&page=1&pp=20

I think that looks real nice. You mentioned changing the carpet to red. I don't know if you meant a bright red or the burgandy looking color you have now, but I would stick to the current color. Bright red would be too much IMO.

One thing I'm wondering, isn't the glovebox door a soft, flexable material with a lot of texture on it? How did you paint it?

D'oh sorry, I figured everyone would've seen it, yeh should've updated this thread too, haha. I still need to go over to mp3car and update my project thread I had in the show-off section, last time no one had anything nice to say so no one really replied to the thread lol, s'all good I know the previous version was pretty trashy looking.

The carpet used to be a real old and nasty grey color, the red carpet that's in there now is the new carpet that I got for Christmas. I originally wanted it to be a brighter red that would match the red painted parts better, but I'm really happy with the color and how it turned out. It's dark, so it's not overwhelming to have the red carpet, it's a nice change that is actually somewhat subtle, a lot of people in person haven't really noticed the carpet being aftermarket and a custom color.

For the glovebox, I think the 97+ glovebox is softer than the 93-96, mine's hard plastic. Sanding it was pretty easy, actually, the glovebox and the knee bolster were the two easiest pieces to do, being red and all. The black parts were the worst, they'd show every tiny defect.

Just to bring a couple of the pics over from that thread for people that might stumble across this via searches:
http://meissenation.com/pictures/2006-04-09/Vince_Matt_RedAlert%20028-sm.jpg

This on a 3.4 car right?

Heavy duty project.

This on a 3.4 car right?

Heavy duty project.
You talking about his 383 swap or the interior? I know he was planning on doing a swap eventually.

Starting to look very good. I like it!

omfg...wtf...horrible...

omfg...wtf...horrible...

troll :judge:

lol it's all good, the trolls always make me laugh because they're just so pathetic.

Yeh, definitely a big project. The 383 is still in the plans, no clue when though. Some guys from my site gave me the idea to just go to a junkyard and see if I can gank an LT1 for under 500. If I can, I just might do that. ...Again, no clue when though.

Yea +1 on getting some balls under that hood... Go look in the junk yards man!

Hey Meiss, are you still using the Opus 150 and is it still giving you battery problems?

I've had my Opus 150 for about 2+ weeks now and my battery seems fine during the week when I drive the car everyday, but on the weekend when it might set for 24 hours it will sometimes run down. Once to 9.2v in a 30 hour period. Sucks.

I was able to measure the amperage of the PC while off as well as in S3 standby and it was:
Off/hibernation - 190mA
S3 suspend - 280mA

These seem about normal from what I've heard through a few other members. My battery is going out though. Under load tests it went down to around 7 volts and took too long to recover which showed as bad. I'm going to be getting a new Optima red top next week and I'll see how it does.

Hmm, I haven't had too many problems myself, surprisingly. I attributed my problems to be a bad alternator or some sort of short, as the more it happened the more I noticed it was after I would move my car in the driveway or what not and then leave it sit for over 24 hours. If I drove the car for a long time (or enough for the alternator to recharge it) I didn't have any problems. I've been driving my car pretty regularly for the past month or so when the weather is nice. About two months ago I bought one of the JimmyJam's Nitrous Accessories Ashtray Switchpanel. I hooked up one of the switches as an inline switch for the carPC, and when I do short bursts (moving my car around in the driveway or what not) of less than 5 minutes, I turn the switch off just because it'd be kinda more annoying than anything to have the PC boot up while I move the car, then wait for it to fully power down. So far, no problems anymore. The car hasn't sat more than two days, though. I still plan to add a yellow top as well as keeping the red top just so I can have the added juice to use.

Gar talk about a jinx!!! Went to drive my car to work today and sure enough the blasted power supply won't boot up the carPC now. I've been trying to troubleshoot it without a multimeter ( my dad misplaced ours :rolleyes: ) and thus far I sometimes can get it to blink twice when I try to boot up, which means the J9 connector from the powersupply to the motherboard is wrong, BIOS settings, a motherboard or software crash/bug, or faulty power supply. :rolleyes: BIOS is fine, power connector is securely in place, and the motherboard is perfectly fine it can't just crash when it's sitting there off. After checking to make sure the power connector is securely in place, unplugging the ATX plug and plugging it right back in, now I can't even get the blasted Opus' LED to blink at all. :mad: Such a pain for the "caddy of powersupplys."

Damn, I jinxed it! :)

Just yesterday I picked up this DMM from radio shack for $30. Has worked pretty good so far.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103176&cp=&pg=5&origkw=fuse&kw=fuse&numProdsPerPage=20&parentPage=search

None of these DC-DC PSU's is perfect from what I can tell. I did find that my mobo draw while off was 190mA. Standby was 280mA. During startup the current draw saw 6.3A briefly and then settled at 4.6A while running. If you mod the Opus with a relay to turn off the 5vsb it will not keep the mobo powered up when off and the current consumption will drop to below 20mA. The only glitch is that with the mod, you lose the ability to use suspend.

I think I may add a switch inline with the main power, use suspend during the week when I'm driving the car and then hibernate and then click off the main power on the weekends since I don't drive it much. Right now my battery is no good, so I'm going to pick up a Optima red top this weekend and see if it has enough reserve power to keep it in suspend all weekend. I think I'll be good once I get the new battery and may not need to cut main power ever. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=74631

________________________________________
DFI LANParty UT nF3 250Gb Socket 754 -
AMD Sempron 3000+ 64bit Socket 754 CPU 1.8GHz, 128KB L2 Cache - about 30w max at stock 1.4v, has "Cool and Quiet" and 90nm core. -
Chaintech AV-710 soundcard for sweet, sweet, S/P DIF sound -
Opus 150

Well I've done some testing with the power supply so far. Thus far, it won't blink if everything's plugged in, but will go into idle/standby mode if I unplug the ATX cable. No clue why, but that's as far as I can figure out. Seems as though something went bad. :(

Well I've done some testing with the power supply so far. Thus far, it won't blink if everything's plugged in, but will go into idle/standby mode if I unplug the ATX cable. No clue why, but that's as far as I can figure out. Seems as though something went bad. :(
If you put the home PSU and inverter in, does the PC work?
I really think you need to get a DMM so you can test a few things. Make sure the power and ground wires are not loose and getting good voltage to the Opus. If it really looks like a problem with the Opus you can contact:
tsupport@opussolutions.com
and describe the problem to them.

Do you have a copy of the Opus 150 PDF file? It shows some trouble shooting steps for interpreting the green status LED.

Yeah, it worked. It's definitely not the motherboard or anything like that. I went out there and hooked up the old setup with the invertor and regular ATX power supply and it booted up perfectly fine. I'll shoot them an email at that address, I have the PDF but there's no mention of what it means when the power supply doesn't blink at all lol. I found my multimeter again, it's not the digital it's a mechanical but it works better than my digital one. All the voltages are coming out straight, so it's not that either.

It would seem you either have too much load on the 5V STBY or the 5V STBY controller is burnt, although in this case it is very surprising that it would work with no load.

My response: "I'm a little confused as to how there would be too much load on the 5v STBY. That's the 5v wire that's on the harddrive connectors, right? The only draw on those wires would be the regular harddrive. What would be a good way to troubleshoot whether it's too much of a load or the controller is burnt? Is there any type of warranty for this occurrance?"

All our power supplies are covered with a 3 year limited warranty. Actually the only devices that would draw 5V STBY are the motherboard and USB devices. Try disconnecting your USB devices, if the problem is still present we will need to test the power supply here.

:bang: Looks like I won't have the carPC up and running for my car show on the 14th. 80+ fbodies and I have to explain why the carPC doesn't work again. :bang:

too much draw on the power supply?

Supposedly. The only two things according to the support tech that's overloading the 5v stby is my USB GPS mouse, and the USB touchscreen. I know these supplies can handle that.. dunno. these supplies seem funky. Wouldn't have been my first choice the second time around, but they're expensive and as long as I'm still under warranty and can keep getting them replaced, that's fine with me.

My response: "I'm a little confused as to how there would be too much load on the 5v STBY. That's the 5v wire that's on the harddrive connectors, right? The only draw on those wires would be the regular harddrive.
No, it's the purple wire between the PSU and the mobo. It supplies power from the PSU to the mobo and then the mobo distributes it to where it wants to.
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/z_mbconatxmain.gif
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/partsMotherboard-c.html

If you can get a digital DMM (maybe you analog will work), pull the purple wire out of the molex connector and put you meter inline so that power will flow from the PSU through the meter and to the purple wire. Plug in the inverter and AC PSU. Now you can see what the draw is on the 5vsb wire. Unplug the suspected USB devices one by one and see how much the current draw changes. Tell the warranty guys the milliamps it draws and ask if that is about right. I personally have no idea what the 5vsb should draw, but it can't be any higher than what the dc-dc PSU was drawing in total when powered down.

Aha, thanks for the info. I'll try it out, he sent me all the information for shipping it to him and what not, so more than likely I'll be shipping it to him later today and then having them fix it and ship it back.

it just sounds to me like to much draw at once to turn completely on, what wattage are tose supposed to be?

it just sounds to me like to much draw at once to turn completely on, what wattage are tose supposed to be?
What, his PSU? It's an Opus 150 and it's powering an Epia mobo. A 90 watt PSU could probably power it so I doubt it's too much draw at once.

he does have a lot of other stuff on it though.... usb thingies and stuff....

it's not too much different then a regular computer, start throwing extra cards and drives in one and the PSU just can't meet the initial power on wattage needed.....

the only things being powered by USB are the USB touchscreen and the USB GPS mouse, and sometimes, rarely, a USB wireless internet adapter. The PSU definitely can handle the wattage, something in the PSU is faulty, and will have to be fixed. Since I found out that there was no possible way to have my PSU back to me in time for my car show ( :bang: have to explain to 80+ people that my PSU decided to just stop working and that's why it's ghetto rigged with an invertor... good publicity for Opus :bang: ) so I've slacked on taking it out. I have the RMA number to ship it back, just a matter of doing it. I'm at the point where I'm ready to just demand a refund and get a more stable PSU. It worked great for over a month, then literally just stopped working when nothing had changed.

If you have a credit card or paypal you can have them ship you a new one 2nd day air and then ship the old one back. They will credit you once they get the old one and check it out. Just an idea.

Wish I could, but I don't have the $$$ right now, all my funds are going to my car show on the 13th.

I was assuming your show was the 6th or 7th. They can't get it back to you by the 13th?

Live in MI, shipping to CA takes 4 business days. I quoted on UPS on Friday if I dropped it off the same day, it wouldn't be there until end of day Thursday, three day turnaround is what they told me (I'm assuming they don't work weekends as I didn't get any email response on Saturday) would take it to Tuesday at the earliest, then ship it out another 4 days wouldn't be there till Saturday mid-day, day of the event. If only it would've happened like one week earlier. I'll talk to my parents, though, and see if they'll spot me until I get reimbursed... one of the nice parts of being 19 and living at home lol. If i can order it from them and get it in a few days and ship theirs to them and get reimbursed when they get it, I'd be gold.

so does it not power on at all, or will it power on with some of the stuff unplugged?

if it will power on without all the accessories then you know you have a weak (Not doing as rated) power supply, but you could still use the basic functions. from the e-mail the tech sent you it sounds to me like this is what they think.. I have also read that some usb gps use a rather abnormal amount of power at power on and then drop, which is pretty normal for almost all electronics...

I know I would rather go to a car show and say "The company shipped me a power supply that wasn't putting out rated power so I can't use all the functionality I have installed" rather then "Yeah that's my ghetto rigged power inverter.

anyways it sounds like thier customer service needs some work....

Haha, well yeah no matter what I'll be explaining that the power supply quit out on me for the 2nd time, because if it was just too much juice then it should've showed signs a month ago when I started running it on a regular basis (granted I know this isn't always the case, though) instead of just not working one day. It's definitely something with the hardware of the powersupply, because the idle/standby LED will only blink if I unplug the ATX plug, otherwise it doesn't blink and acts as if there's no juice.

that sucks, I hate when a system has to rely on a certain part that isn't very...widely used? not sure if that's a good term but it kinda works, not to many power supplies out for car pc's and that sucks....

OK, your dealing with Opus Solutions in Ca. I thought you were shipping to MP3car in Reisterstown, MD which is a lot closer to you. I forgot, but I think you bought it used or on E-bay, right?

Anyway, did you measure the 5vsb current? You could also just cut that purple wire and put the meter inline and then solder it back together when you done.

Ah, yeah. MP3Car replaced it last time, which is much closer but I think this time it has to go through Opus because I did infact buy it used off ebay. I haven't measured it yet, planning to work on the car tomorrow and take it out and wire up the ghetto rigging.

just checking in to see how your troubleshooting is going

I didn't measure the 5v wire, I ghetto rigged it and got the PC working off the regular ATX powersupply and invertor again. I figured I'd let them deal with it, if it just stopped working out of no where, chances are something's screwed up with it, so I'll let them deal with it. I'll update if tech support lets me know what was wrong with it.

any word back yet?

Well, it's been quite awhile since I last updated -- geez 3 whole months!!! I've been busy with my personal life lately and running my website so I hadn't really even had the time to sit down and work on the carPC. I went back to using my invertor and regular computer ATX power supply for awhile. Before Camaro Superfest, my dad told me he'd buy an M2-ATX power supply for me because of all the problems Opus' power supply gave me. I did some research on MP3Car.com and found that Opus's power supply actually isn't meant to handle all the power that the USB devices use, someone posted a thread on there stating that when you take into consideration the wattage used for the 5v rail for the harddrive and then the 5v USB rail that you run out of watts for the said 5v rail... something like that. In any case, the 5v rail on the M2 has more watts and is working now. It took three weeks to get it to work, I had a bad ground point under my dash even though it was the factory ground position. So, to finish my rambles, the carPC is back together being powered off the M2 power supply and thus far (only been a full two days) has worked flawlessly. Plus, I really like the 5 second startup and shutdown compared to the 10 second delayed shutdown, AND the M2 will turn off the power to the USB after 2 hours too.. very big plus. Though, I have noticed my USB GPS mouse has not stayed on since I switched to the M2.

I was talking to Snootch (http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50883) and he mentioned his dash system gets real hot in the summer after being parked in the sun. Afterwards the PC won't come on until the interior temps go down some. That ever happened to you?

After a lot of time and troubleshooting, I found that the problems stemmed not from heat, but from a flaky 3.5 hard drive and the M1-ATX I was using was supplying barely enough current upon startup. I replaced the M1 with a M2, and switched to a 2.5" laptop drive, and no more problems. I also moved all the "guts" of my system out of the dash, but I think if I had left everything installed in the dash there wouldn't be any more problems.

Speaking of heat, I have noticed that (atleast this was on the previous setup with the invertor and regular PC power supply) that if the car had been directly in the sun for awhile (over an hour) in the summer heat that when I would boot the PC up, the screen would be covered in vertical lines in multiple colors... restarting the PC wouldn't work, and I had noticed one time turning the invertor off and then back on once I was in the shade worked, and another time tapping the touchscreen made the screen go back to normal too. Alas, no issues as of yet with the M2.

PS - Also, not sure about you're total setup, Snootch, but for everyone else reading this please keep in mind that I don't have any fans connected to my system. The motherboard is the fan-less Via Epia motherboard, and the inside has yet to noticably overheat unless you include the above story, but I think that might've been a problem with the invertor.

Awesome thread. I had originally thought about doing this when I got my car, abandoned the idea as I was leaning toward total performance/near race car direction, but have since come to some realizations and changed my mind. Now I'm planning on doing this again. lol

It's hard to sit and read 9 pages, especially when most of them are old, but I did scan through it, and have some questions. Hopefully they weren't already talked about (and I ended up missing them).

At a minimum, the radio has to be removed. I see that some people are using XM radio. And I saw in another thread that aftermarket head units can be hooked up to the steeringwheel controls (which is awesom, ever since I had my '88 GTA in the late 90s I've been stuck with OEM stereos because I refused to give up my steering wheel controls. lol).

Are there any aftermarket units that can be controlled through software, via the touch screen? (then I could also get the steering wheel controls hooked up to it and keep it looking like it was a factory option)

What do Corvette HVAC controls look like? I'm wondering if it would look better if doing one of the screen+stock HVAC location setups. (Jason, your motorized screen is a neat idea, but too much hassle for me personally, plus more weight, plus more stuff to break. While I'm comfortable with it being a GT car now, I still do not want to add any weight I don't absolutely have to for some other goal/reason. lol)

Did I mention something about a motorized screen? I don't remember. I prefer fixed screens. I plan to put a 10.4" in the stock dash location. I plan to move my original HVAC controls with the cable still attached into the glovebox. Then take another HVAC control from a wrecked car, cut out the middle hot cold cable switch and bring the other 2 switches together. The fan and vent selector are the 2 most used knobs anyway so I'll put them together in the TCS/storagepocket/cig lighter area so they are in easy reach. Then on the rare occasion I need to adjust the temperature switch, I'll open the glove box and adjust it.

With this setup the main controls will be in easy reach, the cable won't have to be modded and the electrical wires shouldn't have to be lengthened. I will probably have to cut the vacuum lines and add a short length of vacuum hose to extend them a little. I will also maintain the cupholder as well. Can't lose that. :).

Overall, that's the plan. I'm trying to locate either a transflective LCD or an Allbrite 10.4" for the dash right now. I've had problems from my PC lately. The RAM went bad. Which I don't understand. Now the mobo is acting screwy. It may be going out on me or something so I'm going to look into another 754 mobo.

It's a good idea to be able to throw a cd player into the rear floor board just so you have something to listen to if your PC should run into problems. I can't stand driving around without music. :bang:

The PAC steering wheel adapter takes the steering wheel signal and converts it to a IR signal. If your aftermarket radio has a IR remote control for it then it can be programmed to control that radio. That's what I did with my Clarion CD player before I put the PC in. Now with the PC, I added and IR reciever and plugged it into the PC. My front end that controls the music is called RoadRunner. I then used a program called Girder to take the IR signal and convert it to commands that simulate button presses in RoadRunner. So when I'm listening to music and looking at the RR interface I can use my 8 steering wheel buttons to control volume, track up or down, page up or down (for scrolling) play/pause, or whatever I want. Plus I still use the Clarion wireless remote if I want have more button to use. It's pretty sweet.

I plan to put a 10.4" in the stock dash location.

That's massive, let me tell you. I originally was going to do a 10.4" touchscreen for mine, I had a Kiosk PC... this is what my bezel looked like after I had molded it (it was my first ever job doing this, so don't mind the waves in the finish)

http://carpc.meissenation.com/bezel_painted1.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/bezel_painted2.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/bezel_painted3.jpg
http://carpc.meissenation.com/bezel_painted4.jpg

With an 8.5 x 11" printout of the infamous "blue skirt girl" picture stuck in there at a car show:
http://carpc.meissenation.com/uofm%20028.jpg

10.4 does seem pretty big.

The more I think about it, the more I want it to look OEM, or Foosed, I guess, really. His thing is always to make it so subtle that it looks like it was just that way all along. He has said, if people look at it and ask "what did you do to it?", he knows he did the job right. (simiar to how score composers say that you should not actually notice the music in a movie when it's there to just enhance the mood.... but I digress lol)

So... it seems that none of the factory setups have a HUGE screen that dominates the center console. And, the more I think about it, the more it seems overkill. Unless I plan on watching the Power Block while cleaning hte interior or something, I don't see what I could really do with 1 giant screen that takes it all up, that I couldn't do with a smaller one that only takes up the radio space.

Plus, what OEM tucks the HVAC controls in the glove box?

Don't get me wrong - it works, and it can look nice. And if you want the massive screen, it's one of very few options available. I'm not slamming it, it's just not what I'm looking for.

I do not want to sacrifice anything with this car (other than performance that will be sacrificed by not gutting it and making it unstreetable). So nothing in the storage area, no rear seat deletes, no glove box occupation, etc. This makes things a bit trickier, I know. lol

Anyway....

I'd still like to see what the 'Vette HVAC controls look like. The knobs look ok in the Trans Am and Firebird as it stands, but, with a slick touch screen interface, it suddenly looks out of sync.

I'm also trying to figure out what to put on the sides. Every factory set up I've seen is flanked by buttons and such, and the lack is noticable for it's lack, imo.

But I'm digressing again. lol

Just to make sure I understand - you used an IR control converter to map the wheel controls to the IR remote port. That's way cool. But you said you hooked one up to the PC too? So that means you can use a software interface and press buttons on the screen and control it in the same way as on the wheel? Duplication, yes, but, the wheel is there for when not in radio mode on the display (the way I see it).

Speaking of display, what about stereo display? Do you have to do everything blind? Or can you see it through the PC? (which is really what I'm aiming for)

Oh! What about EQ and Fade/Balance? (or in the case of aftermarket units, like my Kenwood Excelon in my Grand Prix - bass, treble, fade, balance, non-fade, cross over limits, etc)

I'm guessing that if it's all done through IR, you're limited to whatever the remote can accomplish. It would be really nice if the PC could hook directly into the HU and read the display and input controls.

Any good links on HU's with monster remote or cable control capabilities?

(I know I'm asking a million questions, sorry, just excited and it's like midnight and I have to crash, so I'm trying to get everything out before I forget lol)

I personally think the 10.4" looks like it was made to fit there. Did you see these pics or my thread focusing on f-body CarPC's?
http://www.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~bmeixner/usck/fotos/forum/usb.jpg
http://www.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~bmeixner/usck/fotos/forum/tftfertig.jpg

That looks so nice and factory to me. You guys don't agree? I would say it looks very Foose.
I think the 2 knobs below the screen for fan speed and vent selection would look fine as well. Foose might find another solution, but I doubt he would spend much time to figure out all the alternatives. It would be nice if I could swap it out with something slicker. Some type of automatic climate control would be great, but I don't think it's possible. The controls could also be tucked into the center console. There really aren't many choices other than that. The advantage of having the hot/cold selector switch in the glove box is that you don't have to legnthen the cable on it.

If you want to compromise on the screen and use a smaller 6.5" just do it up like Snootch did. That works and is pretty easy to do. Looks factory as well.


Just to make sure I understand - you used an IR control converter to map the wheel controls to the IR remote port. That's way cool. But you said you hooked one up to the PC too? So that means you can use a software interface and press buttons on the screen and control it in the same way as on the wheel? Duplication, yes, but, the wheel is there for when not in radio mode on the display (the way I see it).

Speaking of display, what about stereo display? Do you have to do everything blind? Or can you see it through the PC? (which is really what I'm aiming for)

Oh! What about EQ and Fade/Balance? (or in the case of aftermarket units, like my Kenwood Excelon in my Grand Prix - bass, treble, fade, balance, non-fade, cross over limits, etc)

I'm guessing that if it's all done through IR, you're limited to whatever the remote can accomplish. It would be really nice if the PC could hook directly into the HU and read the display and input controls.
I don't think your following me here. I don't run a headunit at all. Before I switched over to the PC, I did use headunits as that was all you had. PAC makes a simple steering wheel converter that takes your wheel button presses and transmits them out through an IR transmitter. You program it buy using the IR remote from what ever headunit you are using. Since the HU is already setup to use it's remote, you just aim the converters little IR LED at the radio. These have been around for several years and are not made specifically for PC's.

All I did was plug an IR reciever into the serial port on the mobo and setup the software. Now the steering wheel controls the PC. At least 8 buttons worth. I don't have a touchscreen yet as I'm still scouting around for a good LCD screen.

I don't have an FM radio in the car anymore and don't really miss it. All my music is on the harddrive. I do plan to add an XM tuner to the PC to hear fresh, new music as well as the comedy channels. I love those. If you can't live without FM, then you can add an FM tuner PCI card to the PC.

All of the sound output is going out of the sound cards SPDIF output into an Alpine PXA-H700. That is really the best way to do it in a carpc setup. It handles all the EQ, x-over, time alignment, etc... digitally.

Ah, I see now. I didn't think about FM tuner cards for a PC. But that would make the most sense. (although if you don't run FM, a shaved antenna would be cool - I do use FM quite a bit though. But then, I only have the 1 CD drive in the Monsoon too)

For some reason I had the idea in my head that I needed to keep the stereo, not really sure why. lol (doh!)

Is there a way to make the steering wheel buttons do the same thing all the time, regardless of what's being shown on the screen? (meaning that even if you're in GPS mode or stopwatch mode or whatever, volume on the wheel is still volume, etc.)

Meissenation's pics of a 10.4" screen looked much larger than the ones you posted Jason. And yes, those do look good there and perfectly sized for it. It does seem a bit oversized compared to what is in the S-Class and such (which is the ultimate of ultimate, short of a Maybach), but.... that would be cool if the HVAC could be controlled through the screen. As it's not practical (in the least) to pull that off, that means hiding those controls in an unusual and decidedly non-OEM manner.

If it was Overhaulin', you're right, he wouldn't spend too much time on it. But if it was Impression.... when the project lasts years, time isn't exactly of the essence. ;) heh heh :)

Hey, speaking of the glove box (to go on a slight tangent), any ideas on adding a second latch so that it sits even, not with one corner sagging down?

Is there a way to make the steering wheel buttons do the same thing all the time, regardless of what's being shown on the screen? (meaning that even if you're in GPS mode or stopwatch mode or whatever, volume on the wheel is still volume, etc.)

Hey, speaking of the glove box (to go on a slight tangent), any ideas on adding a second latch so that it sits even, not with one corner sagging down?
I'm not sure about the volume. It depends on a lot of things. Usually the Girder program can switch the button functions depending on what program is on the screen. If you use the GPS screen built into the RoadRunner front end it probably will work. Or you might be able to map the volume buttons to some dedicated keyboard volume buttons to control the Master volume. I haven't done that myself, but it can probably be done. I haven't added GPS or XM yet, so I haven't tried any of that.

It is nice not hearing the antenna go up and down.

I haven't found a solution to the glove box warpage. The latch being on one side is always going to warp it. You might could attach a linear actuator to the passenger side and motorize it up and down. When the motor closes it, it will pull it up flush. I'm not sure if it's worth a $100 actuator to do that, though.

If you really want to get into the carpc thing you need to go over to MP3car.com. Ls1tech really isn't the place for this.

that would be cool if the HVAC could be controlled through the screen. As it's not practical (in the least) to pull that off, that means hiding those controls in an unusual and decidedly non-OEM manner.
There was one guy who did that. He was an engineer and use solenoids for each of the vacuum switches, relays for the fan speeds and a servo for the cable control. It had automatic climate control all controlled through the PC.
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18189

His pics are gone, but here are some I saved. Suffice it to say, this is virtually impossible for me or most people to build and design the software to control it.

If you really want to get into the carpc thing you need to go over to MP3car.com. Ls1tech really isn't the place for this.

Well, it is electronics, and in an LS1 car.... :D lol

Yeah, I've been lurking over there much of the day yesterday, I just don't have a log on there, so it was easier to post here. lol

That's true, Jason, I forgot you're the lucky bastard with the Pontiac interior. ;) It's so much harder to do that in a Camaro interior!!!

I have the carPC working beautifully now with the M2-ATX power supply. Although I did notice my USB GPS doesn't seem to "activate" at all? I switch over to GPS and it doesn't turn the mouse on, it stays off. :shrug: Just one of the two things left to trouble shoot. The other is (I think) the screen needs a seperate ground than running off the M2's. For the screen's power, we just used a harddrive connector and cut the 5v rail and one of the ground wires off so it was just 12v and ground then connected that to the Lilliput's power wires so I can plug and unplug the screen from the power supply. Now I have white lines that go horizontally through my screen... I think it's a ground issue, but it's not all the time, so it's weird. I've noticed a lot of times if I tap the touchscreen to change songs or to turn the volume up the white lines will disappear, but it's not always that way. Dunno, confusing.

The ac controls were what killed this project for me. The blower motor is electronic, but the hot/cold selector is some sort of phyisical cable and the vent selector is vacuum lines. They do not want to relocate. At all.

I was going to run a headunit and run an input from aux out of the mobo. HU just gives you more sound shaping options and ability to power things, IMO. Yes, it can be redundant if you have a dvd or cdr in the car on the computer, but there is no redundancy on signal and power interfacing as far as amps go.

If I could ever figure out where to put the ac controls that was not in the glove box, I would run an 8" screen.

Meissen keep posting that stuff up - your experience is very enlightening.

I'm with you on not wanting to put them in the glove box, however, they will relocate to there, so it's not a case of it not being possible. Snootch managed it without too much trouble.

Another idea is what Jason was talking about, moving the blower speed and vent selectors down to where the lighter and TCS switch currently are, pulling the temp dial out, and moving that alone over to the glove box. It's a nice compromise.

Or, you could control the blower speed through the PC, and just mount the cable and vacuum knobs down in the TCS switch/lighter location. That way nothing is hidden in a spot that an OEM would never put stuff.

It should also be possible to lengthen the cables too. So you could get into some extreme fabrication and either put them on top of the vents, ala one of Jason photochops, or, you could really get involved and just build a new center dash section that moved the vents up, allowing more room for a larger screen and the HVAC controls could stay where they are. Probably too involved, but, it's a thought. :)


You're saying that an 8" wide screen won't fit with the HVAC controls in their stock location? That's a bummer. The 7" would be perfect if it was a but longer to fill in the space. I was hoping that an 8" 16:9 would extend over enough without taking up too much more space that it couldn't fit vertically. :(

Y'know, another really wild idea would be to put the HVAC controls on the center vents. I have no idea how to go about it, but picture this, say those stainless bezels people like to put in there, they could be stainless or dash colored, or whatever, and hooked up to the controls behind the vent. So that turning the bezel would have the same effect as turning the knob. Or, you could perhaps fix the directional vents in place somehow (probably by mounting them further inward) and using the entire circular vent as the knob itself. :smokin2:

Interesting. I wouldn't mind giving up a vent. The blower wires can be lengthened, you are right. That's nothin' but wires. The vent selectors are vacuum lines...has anyone figured out where those go, or tried to lengthen them? I am sure you could put an in line male/male adapter of some kind and stick some more hose on the end and hope for the best.

I was thinking actually ashtray for blower motor and hot cold selector.

It's that blasted mechanical cable for the hot-cold that really forces you to stay near its intended location. I could see putting it in the center ac vent, moving the blower and vacuum to somewhere else. I have throughouly destroyed an AC headunit before and found that its all pretty modular.

I did the measurements on the stock enclosure area (leaving everythign else on the car as is) and hunted around for monitors that fit in that space. They are few and far between in an 8". 7s will fit, but damn thats small. I'd want to go as big as possible, though from the pics 10.4 is a bit incredible. I have to go find my measurments again.

EDIT:
One more thing - I hacked my last center console to bits and put my stereo HU where the traction control usually goes. I couldnt find anywhere else to put that either. Pic of that is here (http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=popup&image=http://www.fullthrottlev6.com/forums/vbgarage.php?do=getimage&id=1108)

Keep in mind i was not really done making it look nice, and a couple weeks later that car got totalled.


Center console might work but playing cds would be negative - modern cd players still do not like over 35-45 degrees mounting angle. Not to say you couldnt put one of those slimline optical drives somewhere else.

What I meant was all 3 vents in the center of the dash. You have 3 knobs, so, if you were to put a ring just inside the vent hole (but in front of the air directional thing-y - basically picture the stainless bezels people put in), and spin that ring to control the HVAC.

So the first one is 4 position (or whatever it is) and controls the blower speed. The middle is hooked up to the cable (tricky, but anything is possible). And the far right is hooked up to the vacuum switches. What you might need to do is use gears or linkages to move the post under the knob we currently grab hold of. Like I said, I'm not sure how to actually do it, but it has to be possible.

That would more or less hide the HVAC controls, or, you could put a small indicator on the dash and mark the bezels to make it look like it was supposed to be there all along.

Probably the easiest idea would be to use the PC to control the blower speed knob and put the other 2 in the traction control area. Not sure just how good that would look, but, it would work without having to hide the cable/temp knob anywhere.


7" isn't too bad in a wide screen. I like what I've seen. What I really would want to have though is something that is wider to fill in the space, but could be squeezed into the current head unit location while keeping the HVAC controls where they are.

It might be possible to move those controls down the width of the inner frame bezel, allowing for more vertical screen real esate. My car is at home in my drive way right now so I can't really analyze it.


Your pics require membership to view them.

What I meant was all 3 vents in the center of the dash. You have 3 knobs, so, if you were to put a ring just inside the vent hole (but in front of the air directional thing-y - basically picture the stainless bezels people put in), and spin that ring to control the HVAC.

Yeah gotcha on that - put them in all three of the center ac vents?

It might be possible to move those controls down the width of the inner frame bezel, allowing for more vertical screen real esate. My car is at home in my drive way right now so I can't really analyze it.

That was my next idea - and why i dstroyed an AC control unit to begin with. By mounting them recessed or something instead of flush, you are right oyu could get more real estate. I didn't get to explore that enough.

Your pics require membership to view them.

Ok I will work on that...LS1tech, as great as it is, has no place for me to house that image and its too big to be an attachment.

Bernhard, the guy in my thread named Firebird with the 10.4" monitor, was planning to put the 3 knobs in the 3 vents. I wouldn't want to do that myself though. It may look good, but no vents. :cry:

I'm pretty sure I have a way to lengthen the cable. So if that obstacle were removed, where would you put it?

The vacuum lines go to the right, above the glove box and there is a universal looking plug for all 6 lines. They can be seperated there.

What are these bezels you are taking about that people place in the vents? I don't think I've seen those.

My bad. I had seen the pics a number of times and for some reason thought they were a slip on trim ring. Turns out it's really either a vent replacement, or some paint touch up -
http://home.comcast.net/%7Ecfdemarco/Images/Interior.jpg

http://finalfate.londonforces.net/vent3.jpg


However, what I was thinking still ought to be possible, just require even more fabrication than I first thought.

You know how the vents are recessed a bit? Picture the area in front of the vents (or between the vent and the driver). Picture that (the wall of the tube hole, essentially), being able to rotate, independantly of the vent, and not blocking air flow. Now just hook that rotating section up to the HVAC controls (via gearing or whatever). Then you could even go so far as to paint the settings info on the rotating ring itself, and have a small hash mark centered just underneath the vents for the writing on the rings to line up to.

In my head it seems like it would look good and be kinda trick. But whether it would when translated to reality remains to be seen. lol

That first picture has replacement vents, like from the new G6 or maybe a Vibe. I've seen those on some different Pontiacs. They look good, I'll have to do some more digging on those.

I think I see where your going with your description. It sounds very complicated and I don't think it can be done. I think I saw something similar on a prototype show car. It was all hand made though. I'm just trying to find something very reasonable to do. I wouldn't want to make the knobs and such from scratch.

I wonder if any other cars have a smallish climate control center. It would be nice to transplant a smaller setup into the cig lighter area.

My Grand Prix (91) has push button climate controls, that are placed vertically off to the left side of the stereo. It fit better visually with the stock headunit, than it does with my Kenwood Excelon.

But it's a small piece. 2 buttons at the top for fan speed (press them multiple times to go up or down, sorta like a flappy-paddle gearbox), a buton for each vent location/mode (heat, vent, A/C, Max, Defrost, Bi-Level, etc), and one slider for temp setting.

Here are some pics from Autotrader to give you an idea. You can't really see it clearly, but it's the size of the opening on the right side of the radio.
http://images.autotrader.com/images/2006/5/9/201/011/467143325.201011060.IM1.08.565x421_A.562x421.jpg

http://images.autotrader.com/images/2006/6/17/203/938/606640718.203938058.IM1.03.565x421_A.562x421.jpg

I'm not sure if this would work, and I don't think it would look all that great, but, it's just an idea/option.

I think I would need to go to a junkyard and actually look behind several controls to try and find one that would work.
For right now I think I'll just get a second one from e-bay and cut out the center knob and mount the 2 outer knobs like I mentiond before with a nice bezel to hide the seams and then put the whole stock assembly in the glovebox.

For my use that seems to be the best way. It's not very often I use the temp knob anyway. Summer it's on full cold, Spring and Fall it's windows down driving and in Winter it's mostly on warm and maybe full hot sometimes. Still, it's not too hard to reach the glovebox on those rare Winter occasions.

So you'd have redundant fan speed and mode controls?

What about the idea of cutting out the fan speed control, rather than temp? Being an electrical connection, it shouldn't be too hard to control that via the PC. That would require a screen permenantly in place though. But, you could even script it to somewhat automate it. Or, you could make a rocker switch (similar to the TCS switch - or something on the throttle of the Saitek X-45), and use that for fan speed, since it doesn't really need to be circular, it just needs to have up and down (and off). That might allow you to squeeze the whole thing into that area, and keep it looking very clean and require less console re-fabrication.

No redundant controls. I just don't want to cut up the stock control panel. I would just unplug the wires and vacuum lines from the original control and transfer them to the individual controls below the monitor.

You can't relocate the cable control below the monitor without legnthening the cable and sleeve. That just seems like unecessary work to me. Did someone suggest putting the temp and selector knobs in the cig lighter area? I didn't see that.

Although it's true that the electrical fan switch is the easiest to replace, but having just the temp and selector knobs visable just doesn't look right to me. I'm kind of anal about the overall look. The fan speed is the most used by me so I would want it to be proper looking. Even if I could convert it to a button that you pressed multiple times to change the fan speed and I could then fit the 2 knobs and the button into the cig light area, I'm not sure I would do it. It would have to look uniform, like the button in the middle. If it can be made to look good, them I might do that.

As far as looks go, I'd rather have the fan and selector knobs visable and some alternative to the temp selector, but I'm at a loss to know how to do that.

I messed around with changing the knobs and mounting hardware a little. I put electric guitar hardware on the factory knob posts, using knobs with set screws. It doesn't make the workings of the switches any smaller, but it makes the interface area smaller. So instead of 3 1.5" knobs and the graphic behind it that says what it does, I was aiming for 3 half inch diameter knobs with no information about what they do. It freed up some more space, and since the switches need not actually be next to each other, allows you to mount them more places.

I just didn't get much farther with that idea.

I messed around with changing the knobs and mounting hardware a little. I put electric guitar hardware on the factory knob posts, using knobs with set screws. It doesn't make the workings of the switches any smaller, but it makes the interface area smaller. So instead of 3 1.5" knobs and the graphic behind it that says what it does, I was aiming for 3 half inch diameter knobs with no information about what they do. It freed up some more space, and since the switches need not actually be next to each other, allows you to mount them more places.

I just didn't get much farther with that idea.
That's a good idea in concept, but the switches behind the knobs are already very close to one another.

Here is lo_jack's picture:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/JasonWW/Misc%204/humount1.jpg

lojack, did you lose the use of the cupholder? It's in the shadow and I can't see it.

If I were going to do a similar install, I think I would seperate the faceplate from the body and mount the body in the glove box for easy CD access and then mount just the faceplate in the cig lighter area. It could float there so you wouldn't have to do any cutting.

Back to my own setup. Assuming I relocate the A/C controls to the cig lighter area I still have the faceplate sized controller for the H700. For that I will mount it right above the rear view mirror. There is just enough room there. If you don't have a H700 then you could mount the radio's faceplate there and the body in the glove box. That would be stealth and look good.

As far as relocating the A/C controls, I can't help but feel like were a bunch of monkeys trying to put a square peg in a round hole. :jest:
I think I need to find an expert on these controls to see what the options are for changing them to something smaller.

What is an H700?

CD access should be somewhere in the center console, even if the slot is hidden. (and preferably with a slim drive for (hopefully) less weight)

It's not "OEM-like", strictly speaking, but.... if you want to go with a 10.4" or some other big screen, what about hinging the screen on the passenger side and putting light springs on it, with one of those press 'n lock/disengage mechanisms you find on cabinets or entertainment centers. That way you press on the driver's side, it pops out, with very little pressure it opens up and is held there (somewhat) while you adjust your controls, then just close it, press to latch, and you're done.

Probably less fabrication and cutting that way, and it doesn't require space in the glove compartment, or eliminate your other switch area.

I know you had mentioned the idea of motorized screens before, but that might be a heck of a lot of effort, plus something extra to break.


Alternate ideas for the controls would be to convert the fan speed and temp knobs. The electrical conections are pretty easy to deal with, and the cable is mechanical, that means you can use gears, linkages, and even electrically controled (not PC controlled) servers, like something right out of an RC car. This would let you resize the vacuum knob, and make the other 2 controls however you'd like, and place them virtually anywhere.

JWW thanks for posting my pic.

I took out the cupholder because at the time I didn't need it. I could have kept it in with a little more modding, but I didn't take the time to do it. They way I did it, I could also have nearly returned that to stock. Also keep in mind that is the stock height shifter, and when I subsequently changed over to a hurst with an LSS, it is much closer to the faceplate from the shifter, which turned out well.

Yeah the AC control thing starts messing with you and you start to think "how can this be so hard?" If I knew more about vacuum lines and that metal cable I could maybe come up with more practical ideas, but you are right; we need an expert. HPP your ideas seem like you know more about it but the RC stuff and small electronics I know little to nothing about. Care to elaborate on that?

Overall there is just a lack of space for the equipment we want to ha ve in arms reach. I was even toying with some Millenium Falcon type concepts, using the t-top devider in the roof as a place to put swtiches, but decided thats kind of impractical, and I don't have a wookie to co pilot.

JWW explain more on this H700. Is it like a larger scale PAC SWX? It sounds like its opening up some mounting options. If you put your ac stuff where i put my stereo, you should be in really good shape. You may need to seperate them from each other and use slightly smaller knobs. I believe I measured that once and found that all three knobs with switches behind togeher might take up just slightly less room than my stereo, were I to seperate them from each other and move them closer together. I believe there is just about 2" of wasted space in the panel they are mounted in, that you could recover if you seperated them and mounted them closer together.

One other thought I had on AC controls was putting them in the side of the console up by the driver's right knee. The passenger would never be able to get at them, but the lines will all reach. You could use the smaller knobs, but more or less keep the actuators the same, since there is room behind there, just not for large knobs to stick out.

When reading your driver's side mounting idea, I was thinking about what Jason said about the controls behind the knobs being real close together even with the large knob size. If that were the case, you could cram them closer together by using extensions and pushing the middle one behind the outer 2.

Regarding the RC stuff, it's really simple and straight forward. It's just that the servo and control technology there is somewhat mature. Strength could be an issue, but then, it's basically just a motor, should be swapable.

On an RC aircraft, for example, you have a tab on a control, like say the rudder. 90 degrees to that you have a servo with an arm mounted on it, and a linkage (simple wire) connecting the arm to the tab. When the onboard receiver gets the command, it moves the motor left or right, which in turn moves the rudder left or right.

Now you could replace the direct linkage with gears. And replace the transmitter/reciever combo with a direct electrical control. Basically I was just using RC as a frame of reference.

The end result would be you could have a rocker switch that was purely electrical that controled the temp cable. Heck, you could even hook that up to something to add indication of where you were on the left to right (cold to hot) travel of the cable. Really shouldn't be that hard. Then you could mount it whereever and however you liked. Or... you could control it through the PC if you wanted to at that point.


That's thinking about controlling the existing control end/interface. It might be possible to come up with something better at the other end of that cable. But I don't know what's there or how it works.

That's thinking about controlling the existing control end/interface. It might be possible to come up with something better at the other end of that cable. But I don't know what's there or how it works.

Me too - its way down in there and I cannot see where the cable or the vac lines terminate. We need one of the serious racers who has stripped all of that out and has seen it to tell us whats up in there.

What is an H700?

CD access should be somewhere in the center console, even if the slot is hidden. (and preferably with a slim drive for (hopefully) less weight)

It's not "OEM-like", strictly speaking, but.... if you want to go with a 10.4" or some other big screen, what about hinging the screen on the passenger side and putting light springs on it, with one of those press 'n lock/disengage mechanisms you find on cabinets or entertainment centers. That way you press on the driver's side, it pops out, with very little pressure it opens up and is held there (somewhat) while you adjust your controls, then just close it, press to latch, and you're done.

Probably less fabrication and cutting that way, and it doesn't require space in the glove compartment, or eliminate your other switch area.

I know you had mentioned the idea of motorized screens before, but that might be a heck of a lot of effort, plus something extra to break.

The Alpine PXA-H700. That's what I use for x-over, EQ, etc...

If your transplanting a regular CD player then the glovebox is a good spot, if your talking about a slimdrive CD-ROM drive then there are all kinds of places to mount it.

I considered hinging it, but my shifter got in the way in all directions.

I did have the idea of a movable screen, not necessarily motorized. If you mount the screen sticking further out of that dash hole and build a fram around it you could put the whole assembly on tracks so that it could slide up or down. You could just leave the stock A/C controls in place (or maybe recess them just a little if needed) and have the screen raise up when you need to adjust the controls. Now you could lift it with a linear actuator or you could use a vacuum actuator. The vacuum actuators I'm talking about are like the ones in the vents that change the airflow direction. They have a lot of power, but are a little slow to react. They are very cheap and easy to control, though. I'm just not sure building the whole thing out would look very OEM like. If I could positively make it look factory, then I would do it. The bonus feature of this design is that the screen gets raised closer to eye level, but it does block the vents.

There may be a way to make the track stiff so that you could just raise it with your hand and it would stay there. That would be fine with me. I might even leave it up during the Spring, Fall and Winter when I'm not really using the vents and then just shuffle it up and down in the Summer when I'm using the A/C. I think it's a good idea. I may look into it some more to see how OEM looking it can be made when in the down position.

Good point about the shifter. Hadn't thought about that.

Damn, this is like playing chess against a master, every move is countered. lol

What about a garage door concept? (the non-segmented doors) Have it pivot near the top and slide up, into the dash. The top pulls back and prevents the bottom from kicking out too much and the whole thing retracts inside, granting access to the HVAC controls, and full size optical drives if you wanted to use them and mount them there.

The trick there would be getting the track to work in a way that the bottom doesn't kick out too far and get in the way of the stick, and, to get the top to lock in place when it's down in the usable position.


Or you could get semi-cheesy and put a quick disconnect plug (like a hot swap drive backplane - as an example) on the display, and just pop the entire thing out to adjust your controls, then pop it back in place (sorta like a detachable faceplate for a stereo I guess). It would make it very difficult (if not impossible) to adjust while driving, but, it would be fairly simple, not take up extra space anywhere, and have everything totally hidden. And if you don't use the controls often, it may not matter that they are somewhat difficult to get to. (I can tell I'm starting to run out of ideas :jest: )

One other thought I had on AC controls was putting them in the side of the console up by the driver's right knee. The passenger would never be able to get at them, but the lines will all reach. You could use the smaller knobs, but more or less keep the actuators the same, since there is room behind there, just not for large knobs to stick out.
No, the cable would have to be lengthened. The cable goes from the right knob straight to the back and slightly to the right. So you could move the controls further right, but not further left. There is no extra slack in that cable.

Regarding the RC stuff, it's really simple and straight forward. It's just that the servo and control technology there is somewhat mature. Strength could be an issue, but then, it's basically just a motor, should be swapable.

On an RC aircraft, for example, you have a tab on a control, like say the rudder. 90 degrees to that you have a servo with an arm mounted on it, and a linkage (simple wire) connecting the arm to the tab. When the onboard receiver gets the command, it moves the motor left or right, which in turn moves the rudder left or right.

Now you could replace the direct linkage with gears. And replace the transmitter/reciever combo with a direct electrical control. Basically I was just using RC as a frame of reference.

The end result would be you could have a rocker switch that was purely electrical that controled the temp cable. Heck, you could even hook that up to something to add indication of where you were on the left to right (cold to hot) travel of the cable. Really shouldn't be that hard. Then you could mount it whereever and however you liked. Or... you could control it through the PC if you wanted to at that point.


That's thinking about controlling the existing control end/interface. It might be possible to come up with something better at the other end of that cable. But I don't know what's there or how it works.
I posted some pics and a link to a guy that converted these controls over, did you see that? He uses a servo motor to control the cable and used a pulse width modulated controller to move the servo to whatever position and hold it there. It's a bit too complicated for me.

The cable setup is really not all that complicated. If you remove the plastic cover panel from under the glove box you will see the cable end housing. Take out one screw and it will come off. The setup consists of one long cable that starts under the dash, goes up to the switch and then loops back down to under the dash again. The cable has a crimp lug on both ends and one in the middle that the knob can grip and make the cable move. The 2 ends of the cable have a spring stretched across the crimped metal lugs to pull any slack out of the cable. Here are some pics to show you.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/JasonWW/Misc%204/A-CControlElectricalandMechanical2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/JasonWW/Misc%204/A-CControlElectricalandMechanical3b.jpg
And in the attachments are some pics of the controls minus the vacuum lines and cable.

(I can tell I'm starting to run out of ideas :jest: )

That's when it's time to take a break.

A solution will present itself. I just got a SWX-I and I think I might toy with that and the steeringwheel controls. MAybe I am not thinking outside the box enough on this headunit situation.

If you take the angle Jason is working, the AC stuff is going to the shifter console and hes moving the HU entirely. So he will be in the clear if he can mount the monitor in a useable way. Moving the HU is what set him free, well more free than me.

Consider this: if you have to have a hu (like me) then mount the hu in the center console, abandon playing CDs with it for a slimline mounted under the monitor in the dash. It may be possible to cut the bottom out of the center console to allow the cd player to mount vertically in it. Wiring would be centralized, which is good. You just can't play a cd player with it because vertically mounting horizontal units doesnt turn out well.

Has anyone tried to put a HU in the center console? I was going to put my hard drive and so forth there, but the space saved in the dash will make up for that.

Jason where are you going to mount your MB, PS And HD?

If you look at what the cable is attached to you will see a cylinder shaped plastic lug with 2 flat sides. The cable end has a circular hole with 2 flat sides that match up with it. The cable moves a big flap between the evaperator core and the heater core. Those are your hot and cold sources. The flap only moves a bit more than 90* if I remember right. You can't see the flap, only the plastic nub below the flaps center pivot point. It moves very easily, that's why there are notches and tensioners built into the temp switch so that the switch holds it at whatever opening you want.

With the plastic shield and the cable end removed you could literally reach under there and move the flap with your fingers. It shouldn't be too hard to make a new device to control the flap.

If you look at what the cable is attached to you will see a cylinder shaped plastic lug with 2 flat sides. The cable end has a circular hole with 2 flat sides that match up with it. The cable moves a big flap between the evaperator core and the heater core. Those are your hot and cold sources. The flap only moves a bit more than 90* if I remember right. You can't see the flap, only the plastic nub below the flaps center pivot point. It moves very easily, that's why there are notches and tensioners built into the temp switch so that the switch holds it at whatever opening you want.

With the plastic shiel and the cable end remove you could literally reach under there and move the flap with your fingers. It shouldn't be too hard to make a new device to control the flap.

Yeah, basically all I was saying was, skip all the stepper motor and programatic control and tracking via RS-232 or whatever. Nothing to do with any of that. The knob turns left and right in a circular fashion. A motor does the same thing. However, a motor can be controlled in a linear fashion (with 2 switches, each corresponding to a motor direction, which can be mounted on a single rocker switch).

So basically, you press up (for example), and it moves the motor to the right (hot), and press down, and it moves the motor to the left (cold).

All you need then is to fab up the motor to cable interface, which could be direct, if it's strong enough, or done with linkages, or gears.

Really shouldn't be all that hard at all.

I just got a SWX-I and I think I might toy with that and the steeringwheel controls. MAybe I am not thinking outside the box enough on this headunit situation.

If you take the angle Jason is working, the AC stuff is going to the shifter console and hes moving the HU entirely. So he will be in the clear if he can mount the monitor in a useable way. Moving the HU is what set him free, well more free than me.

Consider this: if you have to have a hu (like me) then mount the hu in the center console, abandon playing CDs with it for a slimline mounted under the monitor in the dash. It may be possible to cut the bottom out of the center console to allow the cd player to mount vertically in it. Wiring would be centralized, which is good. You just can't play a cd player with it because vertically mounting horizontal units doesnt turn out well.

Has anyone tried to put a HU in the center console? I was going to put my hard drive and so forth there, but the space saved in the dash will make up for that.

Just very recently I was asking Jason about headunit placement and control and interface and such, and he told me something so obvious I was embrassed about it (lol), lose the head unit altogether.

Cards exist for both FM and XM reception. And 75% of the point of a carPC is mp3s. So that's all your music accounted for. Absolutely no need, or even use really, for a headunit at that point.

My plan (right now I'm in information gathering and idea formulation mode - mostly looking for a front end, planning what features I will need/want, and trying to map out my hardware needs) is to use a wide screen that will take the space of the factory headunit. Leave the HVAC controls where they are. And mount all the components in the back of the car (as far back as possible). Then run the line out to an amp (which also may be relocated), and run the existing speakers (for now at least). I may dump the rear 4 speakers (I could use that space for mounting too).

Basically I want as much weight removed, or relocated, as possible without losing any functionality or comfort. This is an opportunity to take the few pounds the stock stereo represents and move it to the back of the car (and possibly reduce it's total as well).

The front end is the current sticking point. I don't want to use a lot of the stuff many people are doing. I want something stripped down. I may even try to work without a touch screen and mount buttons on the side (like an ATM machine) and use a Powermate (like BMW I-Drive) to manipulate the front end.

I also want to use that IR thingy Jason told me about to get the steering wheel controls to function as well. Probably keeping them exclusive to audio control at all times (mute always being mute, volume always being volume, etc).


Edit - even though I don't currently plan on doing anything different with the climate controls, I do enjoy thinking of ideas and options. And hopefully helping someone who does want to do something different. That in turn may give me an idea of something to try which would fall in line with my goals. :) (basically the only reason I currently plan on leaving them alone in my car is that I haven't seen anything to do with them that is slick enough to look OEM.)

My question about getting rid of the HU altogether is how do you run multiple amps.
I can see the advantages of weight reduction, they are obvious.

But running a lot of sound shaping software on the PC and running all music offthe pc uses a good chunk of resources, and from what I understand (keep in mind I have just taken up this project again after a year) is that running small fanless mini boards means sacrificing some processing power.

I think the back wheel areas would be great for mounting stuff you do not need to get at often, if you ditch the far speakers. But I do want to run at least two amps, and I do not see how to, without buying a really insane sound card, run multiple amps without a head unit.

Your interface stuff is interesting. ATM style is stripped down. What about a track ball or an IR pad? Mount it up where the ashtray is perhaps...even in the ashtray so you close it and its gone.

What about a garage door concept? (the non-segmented doors) Have it pivot near the top and slide up, into the dash. The top pulls back and prevents the bottom from kicking out too much and the whole thing retracts inside, granting access to the HVAC controls, and full size optical drives if you wanted to use them and mount them there.

The trick there would be getting the track to work in a way that the bottom doesn't kick out too far and get in the way of the stick, and, to get the top to lock in place when it's down in the usable position.

That idea would work, but only on a smaller 8" screen. The 10.4 takes up all the space and barely fits. You need a thin metal frame around the 10.4" LCD panel to fit it in. A thick framed panel won't fit.
So even if you have a thin framed 10.4 that fit's in the hole you still have the stock plastic tabs that the radio and A/C controls bolt to. For the 10.4" to swing up and in you would have to trim the tabs on both sides. I was trying my best to leave those tabs in there so I can return everything to stock if I wanted to. Now an 8" would retract into the dash without having to cut those tabs.

Popping the LCD screen out evertime you want to adjust the climate controls? Not for me, pal. I don't think that is a good idea.


Jason where are you going to mount your MB, PS And HD?
Keep in mind I'm not using a HU of any kind. I just mentioned some ideas for them for those of you still using a HU.

I'm building a very large and elaberate steel frame housing to mount above the gas tank. It will be 1/8" steel plate and 3/4 square tubing. I will have 3 amps, the mobo, passive x-overs, the H700 brain, plus all the other extra junk (PSU, HDD, wires, distribution blocks, fuses) hidden in there. The whole shebang will be covered with a wooden frame wrapped in leather (or suede or something nice, I haven't decided yet) with real glass windows so you can see inside. It's going to be the sh!t. That's a whole other thread though.

Yeah, basically all I was saying was, skip all the stepper motor and programatic control and tracking via RS-232 or whatever. Nothing to do with any of that. The knob turns left and right in a circular fashion. A motor does the same thing. However, a motor can be controlled in a linear fashion (with 2 switches, each corresponding to a motor direction, which can be mounted on a single rocker switch).

So basically, you press up (for example), and it moves the motor to the right (hot), and press down, and it moves the motor to the left (cold).

All you need then is to fab up the motor to cable interface, which could be direct, if it's strong enough, or done with linkages, or gears.

Really shouldn't be all that hard at all.
So I guess you would use a big gear reduction unit to slow the speeds down and to help hold the flap into position, huh?

Sounds kind of like my QTP electric cutout. It works the same way. Oooo, snap! Why not just buy an electric cutout and bolt them together? That would totally work. I have mine connected to a convertible top switch which reverses the polarity to the motor to make it open and close. The only thing is you have to be careful not to hold the buttom after it's fully open or closed or you'll put a lot of stress on it. With practice you get a feel for the times to open and close it. Check out the pics and videos here.
http://www.quicktimeperformance.com/QTEC/index.php

Looks like they just came out with some type of controller for it.
http://www.quicktimeperformance.com/Controller/

It does get pricey though. $155 for the cutout and $110 for the controller. This might be overkill, though.

The McCord Power Plate is only $117.
http://www.mccordcg.com/mpp/mpp.htm
These devices are basically just motors attached to large gear reduction units and are controlled by a 2 way toggle switch. 2 buttons can also be used. I think there are motor and gear reduction setups already out there on ebay and electronics stores. I think they would be cheaper than any cutout as the cutout cost is mainly the custom milled butterfly assemblies.

Some simple reed switches could be added to indicate full hot or full cold. Just push the hot or cold button to change the temp. Or use a rocker switch. I think that sounds pretty good. I could add 2 small buttons in between the 2 big knobs and mount everything into the cig lighter area. Use blue and red to indicate the temps direction. Yea, that's pretty sweet!

My plan is to use a wide screen that will take the space of the factory headunit. Leave the HVAC controls where they are.
Follow Snootches lead. The 7" wide screen just barely fits if you move the A/C controls down just a mm or 2. I would get the touchscreen. though. It's just really handy. You can always add that Powermate as well. It is a clean factory look and is probably the easiest way to do it that I know of. Those screens are only like $270-$300 for everything including shipping.

E cutout is a good idea - single button controlled electronic motor with infinite adjustability between two points. Pretty much what you would need to convert that cable driven system to electronic, if you can figure out how to make it control the hot/cold device at the other end.

My question about getting rid of the HU altogether is how do you run multiple amps.

But running a lot of sound shaping software on the PC and running all music off the pc uses a good chunk of resources, and from what I understand (keep in mind I have just taken up this project again after a year) is that running small fanless mini boards means sacrificing some processing power.

I think the back wheel areas would be great for mounting stuff you do not need to get at often, if you ditch the far speakers. But I do want to run at least two amps, and I do not see how to, without buying a really insane sound card, run multiple amps without a head unit.
If you can't afford a unit like the Alpine H700, then you can get a decent sound card that has good analog out and then go directly to the amp. If you have an EQ, then send it to the EQ first and then use splitters to go to multiple amps and use the x-overs built into the amps.

There's really no good way to have the PC do any sound shaping. My $30 Chaintech AV-710 sound card has excellent analog out on channels 7 and 8. Use them as the main stereo out from the card. If you wanted 5.1 surround, then you would have to go with a higher end card for better sound quality.

I'm probably not even going to use my sound card once I swap to a new mobo here shortly. I'll use the optical output straight from the mobo.

Also, the mini/micro ATX boards (the one with only 2 PCI slots) fit nicely in the drivers side cubby hole in the back. Bernhard "Firebird" with the 10.4" used that location with that sized mobo. My setup uses a 3000+ Sempron and the heatsink is car temp, not any warmer and the fan stays off most of the time. You can't beat cooling like that!

E cutout is a good idea - single button controlled electronic motor with infinite adjustability between two points. Pretty much what you would need to convert that cable driven system to electronic, if you can figure out how to make it control the hot/cold device at the other end.
Just attach the gear end directly to the flap. I think that would work.

I would figure a sound card to be adequate. As long as it has a line out (and most do), you can use the software EQs and volume controls to deal with all that stuff, and just pipe the output directly to the amp.

When you factor in wind and road noise, exhaust noise, and if you're of the type to run with windows open, and/or topless, much of the time, there's no need to get audiophile-home-theater-in-a-sound-proof-room quality of sound.

To that end, I'm probably going to be using WinAMP with the mp3PRO plugin and encoding everything to mp3PRO (which is 64kbps but sounds *almost* identical to a normal mp3 at 128kbps - you have to have good equipment, really know the song, and _try_ to find the difference. In a car, just like my PC at work, any loss of quality will be more than masked by background noise and such). Takes only half the space of normal mp3's as a result. (and they will play in any mp3 player, but without the plugin, sound like plain old basic 64kbps encoded files)

Something I forgot about earlier is that I want to add subs. Doesn't have to be anything spectacular. I'm never gonna top the dual 10" polk enclosure I have in the trunk of my Grand Prix. The existing bass is actually not too bad. I'd just like to upgrade it slightly. If I could find something to fit near the back of the car, possibly in the existing far speaker location, that would be perfect (has to be hidden and not take up cargo or t-top stowage). Plus removal of the existing speakers might allow be to break even on weight.

Sorry.... rambling a bit. lol

Dual amps is why I want to run a HU - youd have to have multiple outs on your soundcard or board that all operate at the same time, like a head unit does. Since I already have a hu with 3 outs, that's why im using it. :)

But i do see your point.

Follow Snootches lead. The 7" wide screen just barely fits if you move the A/C controls down just a mm or 2. I would get the touchscreen. though. It's just really handy. You can always add that Powermate as well. It is a clean factory look and is probably the easiest way to do it that I know of. Those screens are only like $270-$300 for everything including shipping.

The big trick would be interfacing that to a front end. I-drive, for example, has a menu button you press to go "home" from any screen. You press in a direction for a menu, then you turn the wheel to scroll through the menu items.

I know the powermate is programmable, and like the I-Drive controller, contains a button you press down (vertically). So as long as a front end could scroll the highlight, and accept the button press as select, it would work. It's the scroll part that has me concerned.

(could even grab a joystick controller card and fab up some buttons to make a 4-way out of the Powermate too. The hardest part there would be getting the mounting to move in the way you want it too, the switches, controller and OS interface are a breeze)

Touch screens are very handy. And would be idea for controlling the OS itself when outside of the front end. The thing is... every OEM control system I've seen (for example I-Drive, and whatever M-B's is called), have buttons on the side, or underneath, plus a wheel/knob type controller. Virtually nothing is done through a touch screen. That makes the touch screen kinda stand out as a homebrew add on. Plus, there is the issue of redundant controls, no sense in actually adding things like the powermate and custom buttons if you can just touch the screen.

More than likely, I will actually go with one. It's just that I'm currently entertaining other options and ideas. (in the case of OS control, I could use a USB touchpad and/or keyboard if I _really_ needed to)


Your interface stuff is interesting. ATM style is stripped down. What about a track ball or an IR pad? Mount it up where the ashtray is perhaps...even in the ashtray so you close it and its gone.

What do you mean by IR Pad?

A track ball isn't a bad idea. The cover could be redesigned and the ball is more slick than a touchpad.

Ideally, I'd like to get away without having to do that, but it is certainly an option.

Dual amps is why I want to run a HU - youd have to have multiple outs on your soundcard or board that all operate at the same time, like a head unit does. Since I already have a hu with 3 outs, that's why im using it. :)

But i do see your point.

Hmm. Why multiple amps though? (just curious)

You might be able to just split the signal, depending on what it is you're using the mutliple amps for, that is.

I would figure a sound card to be adequate. As long as it has a line out (and most do), you can use the software EQs and volume controls to deal with all that stuff, and just pipe the output directly to the amp.

When you factor in wind and road noise, exhaust noise, and if you're of the type to run with windows open, and/or topless, much of the time, there's no need to get audiophile-home-theater-in-a-sound-proof-room quality of sound.

To that end, I'm probably going to be using WinAMP with the mp3PRO plugin and encoding everything to mp3PRO (which is 64kbps but sounds *almost* identical to a normal mp3 at 128kbps - you have to have good equipment, really know the song, and _try_ to find the difference. In a car, just like my PC at work, any loss of quality will be more than masked by background noise and such). Takes only half the space of normal mp3's as a result. (and they will play in any mp3 player, but without the plugin, sound like plain old basic 64kbps encoded files)

Something I forgot about earlier is that I want to add subs. Doesn't have to be anything spectacular. I'm never gonna top the dual 10" polk enclosure I have in the trunk of my Grand Prix. The existing bass is actually not too bad. I'd just like to upgrade it slightly. If I could find something to fit near the back of the car, possibly in the existing far speaker location, that would be perfect (has to be hidden and not take up cargo or t-top stowage). Plus removal of the existing speakers might allow be to break even on weight.

Sorry.... rambling a bit. lol
Sound quality varies a lot depending on the card. I started out using a $150 Hercules Gaming Theater with a break out box and stuff. It was supposed to be real good, but sound quality through a good system sounded pretty sucky. Best bang for the buck is the Chaintech AV-710 or another card based around the Envy24HT chip (24/192 support). The AV-710 uses a Wolfson WM8728 DAC. (Note these both only apply to 2-channel mode. The surrounds use lesser DACs). The WM8728 has a 106dB SNR.
http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71477
This card sounded so much better.

I would not use the software EQ unless it was just a band or 2. I think they tend to add noise to the output. You might be OK there, though.
I use Winamp myself with a Roadrunner frontend.
Why are you even considering mp3PRO? Just convert your CD's over to 320kbps. It's not like you need to save space.
Mount your subs in the far back. It will make a single 10 sound like 2 10's plus the sound quality is best.

A track ball isn't a bad idea. The cover could be redesigned and the ball is more slick than a touchpad.
Again, Benhard has that. You guys saw his thread didn't you?
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=33407

You might be able to just split the signal, depending on what it is you're using the mutliple amps for, that is.
I used to run a stereo signal through an EQ then to a 3 way x-over then to the amps. You can still do that, but I think you want to use the HU because you can tweak the sub level and fader from up front, right? You must have one of those new HU's that have all the EQ and x-over stuff built in, huh?
I can't blame you for wanting to use that.

The Alpine piece I use does all that plus a lot more. It really is ideal for car use, but it's pricey. I assumed you would Google it if you wanted to know what it was. Here is some info to save you the trouble. http://www.abtelectronics.com/product/16615.html

Berhard's screen install is sweet.

The trackball isntall is just the kind of thing I want to stay away from. (which is a major issue for me, I doubt I could do the quality of fab work on the interior plastic peices that I would actually want :( ). What lo_jack was saying was to stuff it in the ashtray. I've considered doing away with it and the lighter, as I don't use, nor allow the use of, either. A trick little door that didn't look like an ashtray cover, and a trackball inside of a hideaway compartment that didn't look like a converted ashtray, might be ok. That's all I was thinking (not that I actually wanted to try it).


The reason I'm thinking of mp3PRO is that on my work PC, I have about 18GB of music. _Most_ of that is already in mp3PRO format. Some of it came from elsewhere. I only have a small percentage of my CD collection here - maybe 25 to 33% or so. I want all my music available, plus have to factor in OS space, update space (and updates to the updates to the updates - for the OS), front end space, application space, etc. Windows XP takes over 1GB itself. A fully updated XP Pro install, complete with Office and supporting apps, can take nearly 4GB. I do want to have at least Excel on here (probably won't use it much, but I was thinking it might be nice to have a hidden USB port and use a USB key to drag my personal expense tracking spreadsheet with me so that I could update it in the car rather than have to hang on to reciepts)

Oh, and then add music videos to that too (I have about 20GB of those at home, most are songs I don't have elsewhere too).

And that's with me planning to *not* use it for non-music related video playback. lol

I know they may 500GB drives, but I don't like using top of the line drives. I don't trust them. I like to go no more than half what the latest and greatest is. (I've lost too many drives - in a non-moving environment at that) Plus, I want to do this on the cheap, and, ideally, I'd like to use a laptop drive, rather than a desktop drive. Much smaller, and much lighter. But usually of lesser capacity, and more $ per GB.

I used to run a stereo signal through an EQ then to a 3 way x-over then to the amps. You can still do that, but I think you want to use the HU because you can tweak the sub level and fader from up front, right? You must have one of those new HU's that have all the EQ and x-over stuff built in, huh?
I can't blame you for wanting to use that.

The Alpine piece I use does all that plus a lot more. It really is ideal for car use, but it's pricey. I assumed you would Google it if you wanted to know what it was. Here is some info to save you the trouble. http://www.abtelectronics.com/product/16615.html

I don't have anything but the stock head unit and didn't plan on multiple amps. I was just asking lo_jack.

Or were you responding to him but quoting me? lol

I don't have anything but the stock head unit and didn't plan on multiple amps. I was just asking lo_jack.

Or were you responding to him but quoting me? lol
I don't know. Whoever is using a HU. :jest:
You guys are getting me so confused, plus I can't keep up with your posts. :)

I think I found it! Finally! Sweet..... :joecool:

Some things were bugging me. Nearly all the front ends were very, well, PC-centric. I know, should expect it right? lol But I was shooting for less Windows functionality and more I-Drive-type stuff. Plus I didn't like the way people had the front ends organized. Things like Music and Radio being on the same menu as 2 options. Radio should be a sub-menu of Music, etc.

The other thing was, I wasn't sure how I could get external buttons (and more importantly, my steering wheel controls) to not be context specific (ie - do the same thing all the time). Part of that whole "ATM-like" concept with the buttons on the side of the screen and also making the wheel volume always being volume, etc.

Someone made a skin for RR that is stripped down, almost elegant, and made for a 7" wide screen. Unfortunately it has that hideous fold bow-tie thingy in the middle of it. :jest:

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=32040&stc=1&d=1153773733

Arrow keys will cycle through the on screen buttons, and control plus left or right will seek tracks, even in the main menu.

When I found this, I that the wheel "seek" could always be track skip, and that a powermate would be able to be interfaced and scroll through menu items like I-Drive.

I'm starting to think about just breaking down and using touch screen input only (plus steering wheel), but knowing that hotkeys work and can be context independant, and that the interface can be super stripped down, is just totally sweet.

Have a test rig on a laptop to mess with FEs and skins. (so much to choose from it's just overwhelming)

Now to start locating the initial, prototype, hardware for the install.

Gotta wait till next month to order my shocks, and can't get the screen until after that. Sucks to have to wait. lol

Jason, about HVAC controls, what about taking the rocker switch controlling an electric motor hooked to the temp cable idea, and going a step further with it?

The 2 large knobs, flanking a single vertical rocker might be tricky to make look right. Plus it would still be large(-ish).

On my Grand Prix, like I mentioned before, the fan speed is a mechanical push button. I don't know what it looks like inside, but what it feels like is a dual rachet of some sort. When you press one, it feels like it turns a small wheel inside, which rotates the selected contact. Press it up to 3 times to reach maximum and then it stops working. Press the other one and it goes back the other way. Again, up to 3 times.

Ok, something similar to that could be worked up for the same use here (or even outright cannibalized). Then you could have 2 rocker switches flanking 1 knob. Speed on left, temp on right, with mode dominating the layout in the center.

It should fit in the TCS/Roof switch area. Maybe even not consume the lighter. Plus you could extend the post/shaft for the knob for the mode selector and push that internal control further back (if needed) and make a smaller knob and squeeze things in closer.

Or maybe instead of 2 rockers, 4 buttons on either side of 1 knob.

If you could fit them all down there, then you could make the lighter area an interface (USB or IEEE 1394), like Bernhard did, and have the massive 10.4" screen mounted securely above. Everything would be in reach, nothing has to be hidden anywhere, and no fancy hinged/tracked displays to get in the way of anything. :)

Jason, about HVAC controls, what about taking the rocker switch controlling an electric motor hooked to the temp cable idea, and going a step further with it?

The 2 large knobs, flanking a single vertical rocker might be tricky to make look right. Plus it would still be large(-ish).

On my Grand Prix, like I mentioned before, the fan speed is a mechanical push button. I don't know what it looks like inside, but what it feels like is a dual rachet of some sort. When you press one, it feels like it turns a small wheel inside, which rotates the selected contact. Press it up to 3 times to reach maximum and then it stops working. Press the other one and it goes back the other way. Again, up to 3 times.

Ok, something similar to that could be worked up for the same use here (or even outright cannibalized). Then you could have 2 rocker switches flanking 1 knob. Speed on left, temp on right, with mode dominating the layout in the center.

It should fit in the TCS/Roof switch area. Maybe even not consume the lighter. Plus you could extend the post/shaft for the knob for the mode selector and push that internal control further back (if needed) and make a smaller knob and squeeze things in closer.

Or maybe instead of 2 rockers, 4 buttons on either side of 1 knob.

If you could fit them all down there, then you could make the lighter area an interface (USB or IEEE 1394), like Bernhard did, and have the massive 10.4" screen mounted securely above. Everything would be in reach, nothing has to be hidden anywhere, and no fancy hinged/tracked displays to get in the way of anything. :)
Yea, I like that idea. I was thinking 2 knobs with 2 small buttons, but after doing a Photoshop I see that there is not much room for 2 buttons. There's really not enough room for the DEF button either. That might have to go somewhere else as well. Oh, I know where.
Here is a before and after pic that shows what I was envisioning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/JasonWW/Misc%204/ACKnobs1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/JasonWW/Misc%204/ACKnobs2.jpg


I don't really like the way that looks, so your idea would probably look better.

My setup is a bit unique in that I use both a Conv. top switch and a TCS switch. I think I would move those to the ashtray area and possibly mount the DEF button in there as well. All 3 of those are not commonly used by me so it's no trouble to open the lid to access them.

I also converted my A/C knobs and headlight knob to all match and they all light up. I don't think I would want to use a smaller knob for the vacuum selector switch. I will keep it as is and then use another lighted Conv. top rocker switch to control the hot/cold selection. It would be nice if I could use an identical switch for the fan selector that you where mentioning. Or maybe use similar 91 GP switches for both so that they match. Are you able to get a good picture from your car? Are they a matching gray color and light up orange/red? That might work. Or I could go to the salvage yard and look through the Pontiacs and see what switches would work. As far as how they are arranged, I would do that once I see them all together. I definetly want it to look factory.

Here's an example of a simple gear reduction setup that could be attached to the flapper under the dash. I really need to go to an RC store and see what they have. I don't want the flapper to move too quickly, so it would need a pretty big gear reduction. Mayby 50:1 or even 100:1 ratio.
http://cgi.ebay.com/HIMAX-GEARBOX-EXTRA-GEARS-VERY-POWERFULL-BRUSHLESS_W0QQitemZ130010973392QQihZ003QQcategoryZ 34055QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm thinking it would be easier to just turn the cable interface, just as the knob currently does, rather than swing flappers. Or are we talking about hte same thing with different terms? lol


I'll try to get a pic of my GP this weekend. Need to find batteries for the camera and a host to post them. The buttons do light up, and are Pontiac orange-red.


I keep forgetting just how big those knobs are and how small the area next to the lighter is.

It looks like no matter what the lighter location will be occupied. What about the cup holder? Do you use it? If not, you could take that imprinted circle (whatever it is) that's facing out right now (when the holder is tucked away), and turn that into a cover for a data port. If you even wanted a data port there.

I think it might look better to get a rocker that is larger than the 'vert top switch, but maybe not. Would have to see one of your expert chops of 2 of them flanking the mode selector knob.

Defrost is a simple momentary electrical contact, isn't it? Feels like one. You could make that button smaller, or.... add button press functionality to the mode selector knob to activate the defroster. And you could even run the light to somewhere else for indication of it being on. Or, you could mount that button off to the driver's side of the console. Out of the way and generally out of sight, but not totally or awkwardly hidden. Or you could even mount it next to the hatch release button on the left of the steering wheel (I'm thinking there's space there.... Haven't driven it for a week, have trouble remembering the finer details. lol)

The e-cutout and TCS could be put in the ashtray, like you said. You could change it so it didn't look like an ash tray at all and maybe have a slide cover instead of a flip one, or one that you press behind the hinge so there is no raised section.

I'm thinking about trying to control the TCS switch through the PC. Not sure how just yet. But it's something I'd like to pull off.

Which just gave me an idea.... if you were to mount a temp sensor on the rear glass, and a photosensor under it, you could read both and set parameters in software. Basically, have it check the time to verify daylight, then check the temp, and if it's below a certain temp, check the photo cell, if the light level is too low, generate a "true" condition for ice or fog on rear window and activate defroster.

That might not cover everything, like I said, just a thought. Should be quite possible to automate it though. Just that extra bit of "trick" :joecool:

I'm thinking it would be easier to just turn the cable interface, just as the knob currently does, rather than swing flappers. Or are we talking about hte same thing with different terms? lol
The air control diverter, blend valve, "flapper" is what directs the air from the evaperator or from the heater core. It is just a big flap that pivots 90*. It is what the knob and cable bolts onto and controls. Just ditch the cable and knob and all of that junk and attach the motor/gearbox directly to the flapper in place of the cable end.
Here's the best picture I could find. It's from a different car, but it shows the big flapper and how it diverts the air. Our cable attaches to the pivot point which is on the bottom of our big A/C housing under the dash.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/JasonWW/Misc%204/evaphouse.jpg


It looks like no matter what the lighter location will be occupied. What about the cup holder? Do you use it?
Every single day. So it has to stay.

Defrost is a simple momentary electrical contact, isn't it?
It's actually a big mechanical device that holds the circuit closed until a certain point and then releases the contacts, opening the circuit.

I'm thinking about trying to control the TCS switch through the PC. Not sure how just yet. But it's something I'd like to pull off.
Why? I keep my fuse pulled on it anyway because I like to manhandle the car around in the rain and such. :) When I had poor tires I would use it more as a safety device. I would stick the fuse back in, but with the 315 GSD3's out back I really don't use it much. SLP makes a device that turns it off when you crank the car and can then be turned back on if needed, but it's $70. :(

Which just gave me an idea.... if you were to mount a temp sensor on the rear glass, and a photosensor under it, you could read both and set parameters in software. Basically, have it check the time to verify daylight, then check the temp, and if it's below a certain temp, check the photo cell, if the light level is too low, generate a "true" condition for ice or fog on rear window and activate defroster.
Say whaaaa? I got enough to do as is. Just push the button when needed and be done with it. Jeez. :)

The 2 switches and single knob shouldn't interfere with that cupholder. I just thought that imprinted ring would make for a great cover for a data port.

I don't allow drinks or food or smoking in my car. :D lol

Anyway... I see what you're getting at with the flapper now. There are some strong electric prop motors on the RC market. They are great because they are strong and light (direct drive of a propeller, and have to be light for power to weight on an aircraft). They are not generally made to operate in reverse though. Something to definitely look into. Something like that would not add much weight, nor require crazy amounts of gearing.

The reason I want to control the TCS through the PC is for making something of a "sport" mode, like on the M3 or F430, etc.

It's just cool. :) (I usually ask "why would you want to do that?" in regards to all these people putting video and DVD playback on these things. lol)

okay i just might be old fashioned or something but I think the interior of this car is freakin ridiculous. Its way to "RICER" for me.

The 2 switches and single knob shouldn't interfere with that cupholder. I just thought that imprinted ring would make for a great cover for a data port.
Yea, 2 switches and a knob would fit fine. That ring is actually a cap that covers the cupholder pivot mechanism so it can't be used for a data port. You could add a USB port just about anywhere, though. No worries there.


I don't allow drinks or food or smoking in my car. :D lol
How do you get the food and drink home?

Anyway... I see what you're getting at with the flapper now. There are some strong electric prop motors on the RC market. They are great because they are strong and light (direct drive of a propeller, and have to be light for power to weight on an aircraft). They are not generally made to operate in reverse though. Something to definitely look into. Something like that would not add much weight, nor require crazy amounts of gearing.
You need a crazy amount of gearing. The motors spin very fast so you need to move the flap slowly so you can make adjustments. Maybe 4-5 seconds from full hot to full cold should be about right. The crazy gearing is also what is going to hold the flap into position. More gearing makes it hard for the flap to push on the motor, spin it and change position.

The reason I want to control the TCS through the PC is for making something of a "sport" mode, like on the M3 or F430, etc.
I think you can forget that. I'm pretty well versed in how the TCS system works and there is no way to make a "sport mode". I wish I could get into the PCM and change some values to make the TCS be less aggressive, but even that is impossible.

okay i just might be old fashioned or something but I think the interior of this car is freakin ridiculous. Its way to "RICER" for me.
OK, thank you for your input. I'll mark you down in the "don't like it" catagory. :jest:

Yea, 2 switches and a knob would fit fine. That ring is actually a cap that covers the cupholder pivot mechanism so it can't be used for a data port. You could add a USB port just about anywhere, though. No worries there.

Yeah, was just a nice place, right near the monitor. :)


How do you get the food and drink home?

In the other car. :D (unopened sodas and such are ok. Generally I'm the only one ever in it anyway though. lol)


You need a crazy amount of gearing. The motors spin very fast so you need to move the flap slowly so you can make adjustments. Maybe 4-5 seconds from full hot to full cold should be about right. The crazy gearing is also what is going to hold the flap into position. More gearing makes it hard for the flap to push on the motor, spin it and change position.

Worm gears. :)

With the worm on the motor itself, it could spin gear hooked up to the flap, but the gear would not be able to turn the worm, due to the nature of the direction of the forces.


I think you can forget that. I'm pretty well versed in how the TCS system works and there is no way to make a "sport mode". I wish I could get into the PCM and change some values to make the TCS be less aggressive, but even that is impossible.

No, what I meant was to simply turn it on or off. That could be done. It's just a switch. The hard part is getting the PC to external switch output interface working. (much easier to read than control)

So in this case, when navigating the vehicle submenus, press the "Sport" button to disengage the TCS. Just as simple as that. :)

Worm gears. :)

With the worm on the motor itself, it could spin gear hooked up to the flap, but the gear would not be able to turn the worm, due to the nature of the direction of the forces.
Yea, a worm gear would work for holding it in position, but would it move slow enough? You don't want the flap to move too quickly or you won't be able to get the temperature just right. I know in the winter time I start out at full hot, but then set the knob to the 2 o'clock position once the car has warmed up. That's why I was saying the total motor time from hot to cold should be about 4-5 seconds. If you've had experience with worm gears, about how fast do they spin or how much gear reduction can you get?

No, what I meant was to simply turn it on or off. That could be done. It's just a switch. The hard part is getting the PC to external switch output interface working. (much easier to read than control)

So in this case, when navigating the vehicle submenus, press the "Sport" button to disengage the TCS. Just as simple as that. :)
What's wrong with the switch already in the car? I don't see why you would want to switch it through the PC. What is the point of that? (confused)

Yea, a worm gear would work for holding it in position, but would it move slow enough? You don't want the flap to move too quickly or you won't be able to get the temperature just right. I know in the winter time I start out at full hot, but then set the knob to the 2 o'clock position once the car has warmed up. That's why I was saying the total motor time from hot to cold should be about 4-5 seconds. If you've had experience with worm gears, about how fast do they spin or how much gear reduction can you get?

A lot. lol

I didn't have an exact answer, but a quick search turned it up -

Q. Why use a worm gear reducer?
A. A worm gear reducer is a right angle gear solution that allows the maximum speed reduction in the smallest package.

Q. When do you use a helical gear reducer versus a worm gear reducer?
A. Worm gear reducers are used in low to moderate horsepower applications. They offer low initial cost, high ratios, and high output torque in a small package. They have a much higher tolerance for shock loading then helical gear reducers. Helical reducers are used in higher horsepower applications where long-term operational efficiency is more important than initial cost.

Q. How is the ratio determined for a helical gear set? A bevel gear set? A worm gear set?
A. The ratio of a helical or bevel gear set is simply the number of teeth in the larger gear divided by the number of teeth in the smaller gear. For example, a gear set with 36 teeth in the larger gear and 12 teeth in the smaller gear has 3:1 ratio.

The ratio of a worm gear set is the ratio of the number of teeth in the gear to the number of threads (starts or leads) on the worm. For example, a worm with two threads and a mating gear with 60 teeth has a ratio of 30:1.

From here - http://www.bostongear.com/products/enclosed/faqs.html

Think of a screw turning on the outside of a gear. I know you know what it is, but, if you really think about thread pitch and number of turns of the screw, you see there is a lot of reduction. And a lot of torque too.

You could also vary the power going to the motor to get the right speed. Given the amount of torque in a worm gear set up, you could probably get away with cheapy radio shack motors (the tiny ones). I'm just not sure how long they'd last on limited power input (might not hurt them at all, might kill 'em quick). Electric RC prop motors are designed to be throttled, so they should take the lower power much better, and still be very light for the amount of power they offer. (would be more expensive though).


What's wrong with the switch already in the car? I don't see why you would want to switch it through the PC. What is the point of that? (confused)

Why do people watch DVD's on their tiny LCDs in an awkward location in the seat of their car with basic stereo when they could watch them at home on a big screen in a nice recliner with a much better viewing angle?

Because they can, and because it's cool (to them at least). lol

The skill acquired in accomplishing it could be applied elsewhere, and it could free up the switch, or the switch location too, if I wanted it to.

I am only interested in ditching the stock hardware if I can save space. Giant grandma knobs take up a lot of space.

Still haven't gotten batteries for the camera (to take pics of the GP HVAC controls) - sorry (only have the one camera and it's a cheap one, without even a plug to plug it into the wall)

I was just out for a couple of quick drives in the WS6 today though. I think the idea of mounting the climate controls in the TCS switch/lighter area, with the vacuum knob being flanked by either 2 rockers or 4 buttons is nearly ideal for the 10.4". However, as you noted, that leaves the problem of defrost, which is what made me bring this up again.

Mount the defrost button over near the hatch button. Actually, it might work up near the light controls, but I know there is definitely room near the hatch button.

Now of course, you don't want to be driving along, notice a fog build up, go to hit the defroster, and open the hatch by mistake. So, enhance it. Either counter sink the hatch button (sorta like Compaq Proliant Server power switches, they are caged so that you can't brush against them and turn them off, you have to get your finger in a hole, meaning you have to want to turn it off), then you can do it by feel. Or.... put a flip cover over it. Like you see in movies for nuclear missile launch buttons or what not. Just put a hinge spring on it to keep it closed, and you're good to go. :)

Well, in my search for a LCD panel, it seems the Albright 10.4" may not fit as it has a large border around the LCD panel. I know where to get a transflective, but it may run me $800 with no touchscreen. I don't really want to spend that much. I'm going to try the Lilliput 10.4" ($300) and take it apart and see how big the border is around the LCD panel. If it's fairly thin, I might be able to fit it in there.

On the offhand chance it won't fit, I'm screwed. Zenarc does make a 10.4", but it's around $600. I'll have to contact them to see what panel they are using. I'm waiting for Lilliput to get back to me on that as well. Neither company may want to say what panel they are using, though. Has anyone ran across any other 10.4"screens?

If I could find an 8 or 9 inch widescreen I believe they would fit. It would fill the width while still leaving some room below for a slot drive DVD or USB ports, etc... I just haven't seen any high resolution 8 or 9 inchers, though. Anyone else seen any?

I hate the idea that I may have to use a common 7" widescreen.

EDIT: I just saw that MP3car.com is now carrying an 8" widescreen for about $260. Specs look OK, so this may be my backup monitor if I can't find a 10.4".

What screen did Bernhard use?

What screen did Bernhard use?
He bought a raw panel from an industrial TFT company and then found a controller for it that worked. New screen (2003 or 04 I think) and used controller. He then found a touchscreen to use with it. The panel is not very bright and is somewhat slow. I don't think it would be very good for video. The newer technology screens are better in a lot of ways, you just have find one with a small border.

Here is a conversation I had with him about it.

Me:
Can you share a few more details about your screen?
It is from a laptop, correct?
A Sharp LQ10S21. Then you bought a "Digital View LTD - Data Display - Rainbow II" controller?
Did you add a touchscreen to it?
If not, how do you control your system, the trackball?

Bernhard:
Well, i bought many TFTs from ebay, but I never got the right size of it. There were many older models with a bigger border, ... so I bought a new set from a firm, which sells industrial TFTs.
Well ... at first i had a Trackball, but now, I bought from this firm a 10,4" Touch glas. You can buy this for every TFT size, ... its a 1mm thin glas wiht USB or RS232. I took the USB Version.
It works fantastic! You can do everything with it, with a virtual keyboard, you don't need a normal keyboard.

I suppose I could do some investigating to see if that LCD panel is good enough, but I don't have any knowledge of matching controller boards for LCD's.

The thread is here.
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=33407

Someone just reminded me about mounting the A/C controls in the armrest. Since (I think) I know how to extend the cable it would be fairly easy to do. I kind of don't like that location because it's hard to see and reach into, but it may be my backup location if I can't get the controls into the cig lighter area.

What do you guys think about the armrest location?

You're right, it's awkward to see and reach. On that basis alone I'd think it's not very good.

Plus it means losing storage space. Personally, I make lots of use of the armrest cubby. Guess it started with my 3rd Gens that only had the pouch rahter than a real glove box, the armrest was the only place to put stuff. But even with my Grand Prix, which does have a real glove box, I just find the arm rest to be easier to get to. Put the manual and registration stuff in the glove box, and everything else in the armrest. Same for the Trans Am.

So, occupying space in either location is not an option for me, just on practicality.

But I also think it has the wrong look about it too. It *looks* like it's something someone did on their own after purchase. Kinda homebrew.


I went for a ride in a friends car on Friday night. He has a Nissan Silvia (S14), and his controls are quite nice. Push buttons for all the modes (I would imagine they are vacuum based as well), a slider for the temp, and a knob for the fan speed. Much more compact, and very nice looking. Some LED changes and it would fit right in.

That might be an option to look into, but I think the idea of 1 knob surrounded by either 2 rockers or 4 buttons still is the best option. For size, placement options, and looks. The only difficulty would be in getting the mechanical aspect of the buttons to work for the fan speed. Need to rip apart a Grand Prix module to see how it works. Unfortunately I can't pull mine apart.

It is possible to put the controls in the glove box without losing hardly any space. Take a look at Snootches setup.
http://snootch.servebeer.com/Pictures/TA%20Pics/Web%20Pics/Car%20PC/AC%20relocate%204.JPG

Although not the prettiest, it can be made to look nicer and it still leaves a lot of room in there.

I just don't like having to reach over and open the door everytime. I know it's not something you would do HPP, but it seemed as if you thought it took up the whole glove box. It doesn't have to.

I went for a ride in a friends car on Friday night. He has a Nissan Silvia (S14), and his controls are quite nice.
What? Did he import it or rebadge a local car?

What? Did he import it or rebadge a local car?

It's a left hand drive S14 Silvia. Known as a 240SX here in the US.

Nissan of America was down at the docks when the Silvia first came over, peeling off badges and replacing them with a number because they thought a car named "Silvia" would not sell.

But they screwed things up by taking the 180 and calling it a 240SX as well. AND they took S13 Silvia's and put 180 front ends on them and called *them* 240's too.

Granted, they are all the same chassis and blood line (S13 came in Silvia form - standard coupe with exposed lights, or 180 form - hatchback with flip up lights), but calling them all 240SX with no differentiation is just a cluster feck.

So anyway, his 98 "240" is indeed just a Silvia with left hand drive and a US spec engine, which is bigger than the Qs engine, making it almost an naturally aspirated Ks (in a sense).

It is possible to put the controls in the glove box without losing hardly any space. Take a look at Snootches setup.

Although not the prettiest, it can be made to look nicer and it still leaves a lot of room in there.

I just don't like having to reach over and open the door everytime. I know it's not something you would do HPP, but it seemed as if you thought it took up the whole glove box. It doesn't have to.

Is his pic host finally back up? His skin and work log pics were all red x's a few days ago. Even Kiztope said the same thing.

Anyway, you're right, it doesn't physically occupy much room. However.... if you put stuff in there, especially things like manual, registration, insurance info, note pad and pen, etc, you cover up the controls. So you'd have to pull that stuff out every time you wanted to make any adjustments, or, not use the glove box for anything else, which, ends up meaning that they do actually occupy a lot of space (all of it) in a practical sense.

It's a left hand drive S14 Silvia. Known as a 240SX here in the US.

Nissan of America was down at the docks when the Silvia first came over, peeling off badges and replacing them with a number because they thought a car named "Silvia" would not sell.

But they screwed things up by taking the 180 and calling it a 240SX as well. AND they took S13 Silvia's and put 180 front ends on them and called *them* 240's too.

Granted, they are all the same chassis and blood line (S13 came in Silvia form - standard coupe with exposed lights, or 180 form - hatchback with flip up lights), but calling them all 240SX with no differentiation is just a cluster feck.

So anyway, his 98 "240" is indeed just a Silvia with left hand drive and a US spec engine, which is bigger than the Qs engine, making it almost an naturally aspirated Ks (in a sense).
OK. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a difference in the climate controls from the US version to the overseas version. I'll try and find some pics of the controls to see what you mean about them.

Is his pic host finally back up? His skin and work log pics were all red x's a few days ago. Even Kiztope said the same thing.

Anyway, you're right, it doesn't physically occupy much room. However.... if you put stuff in there, especially things like manual, registration, insurance info, note pad and pen, etc, you cover up the controls. So you'd have to pull that stuff out every time you wanted to make any adjustments, or, not use the glove box for anything else, which, ends up meaning that they do actually occupy a lot of space (all of it) in a practical sense.

Yeah, it's back up. My wireless router took a shit on me. :)
I don't keep anything except my manual (registration tucked in the pages) in my glovebox, so it's not really a big deal to lean over, flip the lid open, turn the knob, and snap the lid back shut.

Snootch, that foam between the fixed interior piece and the t-top compartment flap is a great idea.

What kind did you use and how thick is it?

What kind of difference has it made? I'm assuming it's squeesing the flappy part up against the hatch to keep it from rattling, but does it help hold down the fixed plastic parts as well? (on the driver's side, it doesn't seem very sturdy or secure - on mine at least, you can easily move it, so I'm imagining it's part of the noise I hear)

Snootch, that foam between the fixed interior piece and the t-top compartment flap is a great idea.

What kind did you use and how thick is it?

What kind of difference has it made? I'm assuming it's squeesing the flappy part up against the hatch to keep it from rattling, but does it help hold down the fixed plastic parts as well? (on the driver's side, it doesn't seem very sturdy or secure - on mine at least, you can easily move it, so I'm imagining it's part of the noise I hear)

Yes, the foam pieces I glued on there keep both the flap and the plastic from rattling, as the vibration and air pressure from the sub can get intense sometimes. I don't know where you would get the foam, as I found it in the dumpster at work. The best i can describe it is its a black closed-cell foam commonly used in re-useable shipping boxes. the strips i cut are approximately 1" wide and 1/2" tall. Here's a picture:

http://snootch.servebeer.com/Pictures/TA%20Pics/Carputer%20Pics/V%202.0/Subwoofer.jpg

Ah, yes, I think I know what kind of foam you mean. Thanks.

I was just worried about stuffing too much in and putting too much pressure in there.

I know most of my clunking, thunking and crashing I hear over bumps is due to my stock shocks, but(!), it's just that they are causing bits of the interior to shake. That seems the easiest and most logical place to start trying to cinch things down. Should help hold the side plastic in check too.

Is that one sub all you have? What's it sound like with it off to the side like that?

Sub bass below 80hz is uni-directional, so I really can't tell where it's coming from. I would find your offending panels and get them to stop buzzing by tightening them down somehow, or by wedging small strips of foam under them.

Sub bass below 80hz is uni-directional, so I really can't tell where it's coming from. I would find your offending panels and get them to stop buzzing by tightening them down somehow, or by wedging small strips of foam under them.
I think you mean the low bass is "OMNI-DIRECTIONAL" meaning it travels in all directions.

I've got quite a bit of experience in deadening cars and HPP seems interested, so I'll post up some hints.

When looking for resonances get a CD with 1/3 octave pink noise. Turn off the mids and tweets and just let the subs play. Set the player to repeat the track over and over and then turn up the volume while you are in the back seat area. Certain frequencies will create the rattling. I track them down one by one and fix each one before moving to the next. In the F-body's it's usually the plastic panels that will rattle.

In my "sound deadening kit" I use light density foam like you would get at a sporting goods or outdoor equipment store for sleeping on. I got a big roll of it for very cheap. It compresses very easily and is light weight. You can cut off a chunk and squeeze it in between 2 panels to keep pressure on them. This technique should fix most rattles or resonances. Large flat panels of sheetmetal may be the exception. This is one of the few times when adding mass will help. One of my old techniques to add a lot of mass and stiffness was to get some bondo and BB's. Spread a layer of bondo thickly and then pack the BB's into it. This works like gangbusters, but may be too extreme to use in a lot of places. Think of this as a secret weapon and only use it where you need it. Typically panels with big holes in them so there is not a lot of surface area for dynamat to stick to or around the tail light area which is right next to the subs and oddly shaped. Most metal panels you can use regular dynamat pads to stick to them. Just don't go dynamat crazy like some and stick it on the back of the plastic panels. This adds unneccesary weight and defeats the purpose of a plastic panel in the first place. Plus it wastes a lot of your money.

Another item is black adhesive backed felt which can be got at a craft store or Walmart. Sometimes you will get 2 plastic panels that slide against one another causing a squeek. You can cut off a small piece and then pry the top panel back slightly and then slip the felt in between. It is thin enough that you can't really see the panel sticking up any and it will stop the squeeking.

Another item I use is a dense rubber. I will get one of those rubber baseballs from a toy store and then slice out wedge pieces. You use this where the light foam would simply compress fully and not do any good. I've had good luck fixing rattling dashes with this on other cars. Use this rubber where any heavy piece is vibrating or rattling.

By using a combination of the test tones as well as test drives over bumpy roads with the windows up you should be able to track down all the squeeks and rattles. If you are having trouble finding the source of one, then have someone else drive while you sit in back to pinpoint it's location.

One time I had this dash rattle about 6 years ago in another car and for the life of me couldn't find the source after months of trying. So I got another person to drive and I sat in the passenger seat and I was able to triangulate the source. Turns out it was on the firewall in the engine compartment and not inside the car. Wiper motor bushings had gone hard. So don't give up. Eventually you can find and fix all the rattles and squeeks.

There are other sourses of noise as well, such as wind and tire noise. The only thing you can do with tires is either drive on quieter roads or get new tires. In other words, not much. Wind noise can be the most dangerous to diagnose as you usually have to be on the freeway to find their source. Luckily these f-bodys tend to cut through the air pretty good. The main areas are going to be the window seal and door seal. The window can be adjusted to tuck in tighter at the top if you think that is your problem. Everything else is going to be related to changing out the door seals or T-top seals.

Hope that helps someone.

Hope that helps someone.

Great stuff. Thanks. :)

Question about Dynamat - I remember years (and years) ago hearing that people mistakenly thought you had to coat the entire surface for it to work, but that all you really needed was just a little bit.

I'm sure that it would act as a muffler/sound deadener quite well if you coated the entire surface (for example, I've seen pics where people have taked up the carpet in the rear, and removed the plastic panels and put Dynamat over every square inch), but, that seems heavy. Is there anyway to benefit by using less? At Circuit City, they have a demo with 2 bells (the ring bell for service, kind of bell), and one has a tiny little patch of dynamat on it, the other has none. Obvisously the one without rings loud and clear, as a bell is meant to. But the one with the small patch, gives a dull thunk and nothing more.

Just wondering if there's any resonance in the metal of the body that could be quieted down (and maybe prevent other attatched components from buzzing/rattling) by using it judiciously to save weight. (Theoretically, if a surface can't vibrate, it can't pass sound. So it would seem that total coverage would be overkill)

I don't know why people coat the entire surface. Possibly ignorance.

You see, every object in the universe, if it has mass, has a resonant frequency. That is the frequency that it naturally vibrates at. Sound by it's very nature is simply pressure waves or pulses traveling through a meduim. Here on Earth, these pressure waves travel through air molecules. (Remember the Alien movie slogan "They can't hear you scream in space) Any meduim will do though, water, dirt, glass, metals, rubber, etc... Our ears are more sensitive to the air molecules due to their design, but we can also hear through our bodies as well. Since the human range of hearing is only defined by what our ears can detect the audible spectrum is generally said to be 20 to 20,000 vibrations per second or hertz. It's a loose range, some people can hear 17 or 18 hertz or maybe only down to 25-27. Same to the top end of the range. It's not an exact 20-20K as everyone is a little different.

To simplify, when you have a vibration source like a car engine, tire or anything that makes noise outside the cabin the pressure waves travel through the air and come in contact with the automobiles body. Sometimes it won't travel through the air but through the frame or unibody structure. The end result is that the cars body panels will vibrate or resonate if the frequency is right and amplitude is high enough. These are 2 key things so remember them (freq and amplitude). On the inside of the car the speakers are producing sound of coarse, but sometimes the freq and the amplitude will be enough to make a body panel, plastic panel, etc... start to resonate and this will produce a sound higher in freq (a harmonic of the fundamental) than what the speaker is playing and your ears will pick this up as not being part of the music.

Again to simplify, this rattle or vibration of a panel will be noticable. So how do we solve it and make it quiet again? If you actually have a rattling peice of sheetmetal like say from a home air conditioner or something you can place your finger lightly near the edge of the panel and not much will happen. However, placing your finger lightly near the center will cause the panel to stop vibrating. What you are doing is bracing the panel which greatly reduces the panels ability to flex and therefore vibrate. Using the bracing technique is great. It can be very light weight and work extremely well. It's not always pratical, though. Stuffing a piece of foam between the cars body and a plastic interior panel is a form of bracing. It's super light and works really well. A spot where you can't brace would be the floor panels. They are large flat peices of sheet metal and can easily transfer vibrations to the cars interior. Now ideally you would stick a light weight tube from the floor panels to the ceiling thereby bracing it and quieting the panels, but we all know that is not practical. It would look horrible.

So for those panels we can use another technique, adding mass. When we make the panel heavier (without effecting it's stiffness) we are changing it's resonant frequency. Adding mass will lower the freq. The lower the freq the more amplitude is needed to make the panels new resonant freq audible. Sometimes you can bring it's resonant freq down to subsonic levels (below 20Hz). Even with lots of amplitude it won't be heard, but might be felt. Most of the time a panel will stop being heard by a smaller drop in it's resonant freq, so you don't have to aim for subsonic everytime.

You can also make a panel stiffer to make it quiet. Stiffening raises the resonant freq, but that is not a bad thing. Even though the resonant freq is higher, a stiffer panel will require more amplitude to be heard.

Bracing is the lightest
stiffening adds more weight
adding mass is the heaviest option

Imagine a square 18" by 18" piece of sheetmetal welded into a car that is vibrating. Since the panel is welded around it's edges they are not going to be vibrating much at all. Guess where the noise is coming from? If you said the center, then good for you. You can add a brace to the center, stiffen it with a layer of bondo or glue a piece of wood to it, etc... or add mass like a piece of 18"x18" dynamat or similar material. Adding the mass near the edges isn't going to do anything so you can take that big piece and put a 9x9 inch piece in the center of the sheetmetal panel. If that is not enough to amke it quiet, for you then add a second 9x9 piece to the center. Focusing the full 180 inches of dynamat on the center area will have a much greater effect than laying out the single large piece over the whole panel.

I'm kind of mixing resonances caused by the speakers with preventing outside sounds from entering the car because they are very similar in nature. An outside sound (or pressure wave) comes into contact with say a door panel and it can cause that door panel to vibrate a little. Since there is air on both sides of the door panel the air inside the car will be effected by the vibrating door and continue the pressure wave and your ears may pick it up. Sound also goes through the glass, but since it is so stiff it is more resistant to vibrating. Still, everything that has mass has a resonant frequency and can vibrate. You can never stop an object from vibrating. You can only reduce it's resonant freq or it's amplitude. Usually one or the other is all you need to make it quieter than the surrounding ambient noise level. That is really what you are shooting for. Whenever you reduce the ambient noise level you are opening another can of worms because you can now hear rattles or squeeks you previously could not and the sound deadening cycle gets repeated.

Hope that makes sense.

PS.
The human ear is more sensitive to midrange frequencies and less sensitive to the extremes. A very high freq or a very low freq is going to be harder for us to hear even though it's amplitude is the same as the mid range freq. Think of the old EQ's where we had the smily faces. We always boosted the lows and highs.
It's easier to lower a panels resonant freq than it is to raise it. So even without an amplitude change, simply lowering the resonant frequency will make it quieter to our ears even though a sound meter will say otherwise.