Builder

Okay, what's the real deal with sleeved blocks?

I am trying to decide on the right setup. Some folks say they leak coolant. Some folks say they are fantastic. Some say they don't square up. Some say they won't last for my application. Dry or wet sleeve? The wet sleeve may leak, but the dry sleeve may have cooling issues.

WTF! How do you decide? The engine is for a street-legal car, but will go to the road course frequently...maybe 10-20 percent of the time.

I would love to hear from past and present sleeved-block owners...
Success stories...especially about dependability and miles driven, and
Horror stories...why would you never do it again?

I have the coin for a sleeved block, but not a C5R setup. Here's what I am thinking for the engine:

Goal: 7500 rpm and 600-700 crank hp and 550-600 ft/lbs
Forged LS2 402 (4x4), 434 (4.155x4 sleeved), or 443 (4.200x4 sleeved)
Solid roller, ARE dry sump, adjustable shaft rockers, BigStuff3
Long-stem valves for bigger springs with Ti intake valves
AFR 225 or All Pro with 72cc chambers, FAST 90 manifold and T/B
11.0 compression with 91 octane (I live at 5,000' elevation)
Streetable cam for the 402: 242/248 .646"/.653" 112 overlap 110 cen
Cams for larger ci setups not calculated.

Please feel free to email me with your thoughts, as well.

Thanks,

RX-Ben

iTrader: (7)

Mmm...Ultima.

Sleeving blocks is highly dependent on the skill of the sleever. Sleeved blocks straight from the source (Steve Demarjin who designed the sleeve...I think I butchered his last name) are the best way to go. I haven't heard of any problems with ones that he's done. The problems I've seen are with other shops (MTI, etc.).

That is a crazy amount of horsepower you are shooting for. Are you having a shop build the engine or are you going to do it? There are a number of competent builders who can get you in the mid 500's at the wheels with little issue. Mikey @ Rapid Motorsports (site sponsor) has gotten that number out of a 402 LS2 block.

It sounds like you are dropping a lot of money on this project- I'd enlist the help of a good engine builder as it'll be well worth it to avoid troubles and deal with troubles when they arise.

Also, no need for anything other than a tuned stock PCM. It is better than 99% of all the standalone systems out there.

Ben

Builder

Yes, they are delicious! Okay, good advice. If I can get a consensus on the quality of wet-sleeved blocks, I will prolly go for it with one of the prominent shops.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a mid-500 car at the wheels is prolly a low- to mid-600 at the crank, which is exactly what I am shooting for (maybe a little more). And yes, I will have a shop build it. No way would I try to build this engine. I don't have the experience and I can only spend the coin once. By the time I am done, I should have about the same amount in it as a new Zo6, but it will dominate!

Ben, I appreciate your observations and comments. But, please keep in mind that I want to learn as much as I can about sleeved blocks in this thread. BTW, I agree about the PCM. I guess I could even use an LS1 box. Looking into EFILive. I like the dashboard in that. It would save installing separate instruments, since I am going to put an "in-car PC" in there anyway.

Thanks, Ben. If anyone has questions about the GTR, please PM or email me.

mr2guru

iTrader: (16)

Honestly if you're gonna race a lot...you might as well do whatever you can do to scrap up enough coin for a C5R block. Really.

Builder

That's what I am trying to determine. If there are enough confident responses to this thread from sleeved-block owners, I will go with a sleeved block. Otherwise, since a C5R block is not in the budget, I will go with the 402. Have you had the opportunity to put many miles on a C5R or sleeved block?

Thanks,

RedHatRdRacer

iTrader: (25)

I had two sleeves put in my motor. They were put in dry i had no cooling problems but i did have a sleeve fall and it messed up a good piston as well as the head. I think in anytype of racing application IORN is the way to go. Although the Sleeves that were from the factory did hold up and a C5R would be awsome, as well as with a sleeved block you are lighter than iorn so its really a toss up... Both have there advantages and disadvantages. Hope this helps

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

I've owned two dry-sleeve MTI engines.

First one was an all-bore 382ci with a factory crank. First LS1 all-bore in existence. I drove that engine pretty hard for about a year and sold it to a guy that put it into his daily driver Corvette. Last I heard, he put around 60K miles on it without any issues.

Second one was a 434ci LS6. 525 rwhp. The engine ran great, but something freak happened and it threw a rod through the side of the block. Clean break on the rod, probably a material failure. MTI replaced it under warranty and put one of their newer dry-sleeve 427ci LS6 engines in the car and I sold the car. The current owner still daily-drives that car, its been over 2 years now. Not sure on the mileage he put on it since then, but I know it was over 10K last time I checked.

The LS2 sleeved engines look pretty solid, since the LS2 blocks have alot more material still left around the cylinders after removing the factory ones.

DopeFedZ

iTrader: (34)

Talk to Pecos or Brian @ LME >>>> they should be able to answer your questions.

Builder

Agreed, iron is stronger. However, an untouched LS2 aluminum block should be good to 800 crank HP; possibly more with sleeves.

So the engine you had, it had only two of eight with sleeves? The other six were factory? How did that come about? What kind of block and what bore? What car was it in? I presume you were doing track days with it?

Thanks RedHatRdRacer,

Builder

All-in-all then, it sounds like a good experience for you and the subsequent owners (regarding the sleeves anyway). Good of MTI to step up. What engine do you have now?

Thanks Nine Ball,

Builder

Thanks, DopeFedZ. I will do that. Right now, I am just trying to hear from those that have owned a sleeved block. Not to say that companies that sell these are biased. That's one of the reasons for this thread. Some of the engine builders that I have spoken with won't build any engine using sleeves. Some builders swear by them. So I am trying to learn, from those that have gone before me, if there's any pattern with the successes or failures.

texada

iTrader: (3)

Wait on the LS7 bare block!!

Builder

I know! It's killing me! Is it August yet? We'll see what the price is. Don't want to discuss that too much in this thread, but I think the best guess is $15k retail (maybe $13k street) for the crate. The raw block should be around $4k. Nothing to do but wait and see.

Christos

Is this Ultima GTR fully your creation? I've never heard of it before.

It is a very slick car.

http://www.ihp.com/GTR/GTR.html

Wow, that would be a blast with this kind of power to boot.

Christos

well holy crap, it's cheap too. not cheap-cheap, but a lot less expensive than I would have guessed.

What an awesome car

Builder

I wish! If I could make a living doing nothing but working on the Ultima GTR...

If you have been to some track days, maybe you have seen the Radical. Here's the Radical site. I was browsing the links page and found Ultima. I was thinking about getting a Radical. It's street-legal in Europe, but not the USA. The Ultima is. Here's the Ultima site.

The Ultima GTR has recently set some world speed records on DOT tires; 0-100-0 in 9.8 seconds and 1.176 on the 200' skidpad. It's just the most awesome performing car you can own, except for the McLaren F1...and those are WAY out of my budget.

You can build an Ultima for as little as $65k. Mine will come in a little above that, but it will totally dominate the street and the track. What's nice about the GTR is...you drive to the track-day event. You go out and lap Porsche "Cup" cars, Vettes, Vipers, Lambos, Ferraris, etc. Then, you drive home. Do all that with a street-legal car that you build yourself for way less than the price of a vanilla 911.

See that? I said this thread was for learning about sleeved blocks and, as soon as you mention the Ultima, I start spewing... Well, I have been waiting to get this car for about 1.5 years. It's finally on it's way and I should have it completed by the end of the year. Here's every bookmark I have saved over the last 1.5 years regarding every aspect of the Ultima. I am also hosting one of the national meetings, if you might be interested in going for a ride. Enjoy!

Christos

I've read their entire website.

I'd love to see, "topgear" do an episode on this car too. wow.

Congradulations, you have the best handling car in the world, from what i've read. I like how they use Chevy engines. Can't beat the ***** that Chevy is in the V8 world.

You should post up pics, and more info in the offtopic area. I'd love to know more about it. Are you the first to do a LSx drop in? **** man, patent that, and sell LSx engines built for the thing.

Builder

Ha! Well, it's definitely one of the best with DOT tires on the road...don't know about "the world" Ha-ha!

Unfortunately, it's not patentable that way. Others have gone before me. If you take a look at the bookmarks that I posted above, there's a "Builder's Sites" section that you can browse. One guy in Canada put a BMW V12 in. Another guy put a TT Chevy and made 1300 hp. Totally sick. He backed off at 229 mph in 5th...with a six-speed box. Anyway, the links I posted will get you to every bit of info I have on the Ultima.

So, about those sleeved blocks...

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

I sold the car that had the sleeved strokers about 3 years ago. Latest project car (the '69) has a supercharged 348ci LS6 in it, no need for sleeves. The technology involved with them has gotten better over the years though, and I'd have no problem purchasing another sleeved engine from a reputable builder.

Tony

Builder

Thanks, Tony. BTW, cool cars. Saw your site. Sweet '69 Camaro.