The pain what size wing to add for down force and how much
12-01-2008, 04:41 AM
#1
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The pain what size wing to add for down force and how much Ok how do i figure out how much down force a wing will add to the rear of a car
AT 60/80/100/120/140/180/200 mph This is going on a 06 GTO
wings like these http://www.grounddynamics.com/Templa...ubFolderId=410
http://www.grounddynamics.com/Templa...SubFolderId=41
http://www.grounddynamics.com/Templa...ubFolderId=411
how high does it have to be off the truck lid ?
Not to picky on looks but need to be light and able to add good amount of down force.
What are other good brands to buy that are adjustable for angle so i can tune them for just the enough down force ?
Yes there most likely will be a front form of one to bal down force and hopefully push more air into rad and inter cooler
AT 60/80/100/120/140/180/200 mph This is going on a 06 GTO
wings like these http://www.grounddynamics.com/Templa...ubFolderId=410
http://www.grounddynamics.com/Templa...SubFolderId=41
http://www.grounddynamics.com/Templa...ubFolderId=411
how high does it have to be off the truck lid ?
Not to picky on looks but need to be light and able to add good amount of down force.
What are other good brands to buy that are adjustable for angle so i can tune them for just the enough down force ?
Yes there most likely will be a front form of one to bal down force and hopefully push more air into rad and inter cooler
12-02-2008, 01:34 AM
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God.... I recently came up behind a POS Honda... a REAL POS.... rusted out.... beat up... you name it.... and it had one those kind of wings bolted to the trunk lid.
I thought it looked kind of weird because I could see the side of wing while sitting directly behind the POS..... as I sat there I figured out WHY I could see the side....
you guessed it.... the idiot that owned that POS had bolted the damn spoiler on crooked... by a LOT..... it was probably off at least 3" left to right!!!!!!!
I thought it looked kind of weird because I could see the side of wing while sitting directly behind the POS..... as I sat there I figured out WHY I could see the side....
you guessed it.... the idiot that owned that POS had bolted the damn spoiler on crooked... by a LOT..... it was probably off at least 3" left to right!!!!!!!
12-02-2008, 01:39 AM
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that car handles beautifully it does need a wing inless u r driving it at like 120 around 60 degree corners, my buddies gto goes easily up to about 196 ish and still has stock spoiler on it.
12-02-2008, 06:22 AM
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Well if i floor it at 80-90 mph the rear tires will start to break loose. Even rolling in to it hard i can feel the back dancing around. Adding about 200 to 300 more hp now. Dropping 300-350 lbs of weight. so thinking i will have some more spinning issues . Ive had the car to 200 its starts to get a little light over all. Just looking at ways to move the air flow around the car in a more control manner. but just enough so not to induce to much more drag.
The front wing is on a slip mount that hided under the bumper so it come on and off almost like a trailer hitch. With it on the cooling system temps drop and car feel much more stable. I have no real idea of how much added drag or down force it added to the car. But its enough to add to rear tires spinning by lighting the rear a little.. Im just guessing with parts and sizes now.
The front wing is on a slip mount that hided under the bumper so it come on and off almost like a trailer hitch. With it on the cooling system temps drop and car feel much more stable. I have no real idea of how much added drag or down force it added to the car. But its enough to add to rear tires spinning by lighting the rear a little.. Im just guessing with parts and sizes now.
Last edited by BigRich954RR; 12-02-2008 at 06:35 AM.
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12-02-2008, 09:00 AM
#8
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I have an interest in this as well. The problem is (other than the common liebeck airfoil used in grand-am racing etc.), none of the wing manufacturers tell you which airfoil number they are using. It's usually a NACA this or that. If you are looking for a "relation" from size to size, I'd start with a Liebeck. and apply the percentages to whatever wing you select....although the total downforce number will be different. You may want to look up agent 47 stuff....they've done a lot of work in NASA racing. Here are some more links:
http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/methods.htm
http://isoar.ca/~andrewm/rc/airfoils/
http://www.engr.uiuc.edu/communicati...9/pg000017.htm
http://www.crawfordcomposites.com/newproducts.htm
http://wingshop.co.uk/
http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html
http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/methods.htm
http://isoar.ca/~andrewm/rc/airfoils/
http://www.engr.uiuc.edu/communicati...9/pg000017.htm
http://www.crawfordcomposites.com/newproducts.htm
http://wingshop.co.uk/
http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html
12-02-2008, 09:32 AM
#9
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Sometimes, it's not the rear spoiler that is needed. How is your front air dam and radiator "flap" as I call it? If you are allowing air to get under the car that could be your problem too. I would start with the front of the car to check if the front facia is all there along with how high your car sits (is it lowered?)
Also, how is your rear suspension set up? stock? coilovers? If you have a factory wing on the rear that should help clean up the air in the rear. Working with aerodynamics is really weird, air is lazy so it takes the easiest way around something.
Try putting pieces of string taped front to rear over the top of your car and have someone video tape you driving. Watch what happens to those strings, sometimes it takes little air deflectors to do what you need the air to do. Like on a airplane wing, or on the roof of a NASCAR car.
Let us know what you find.
Good luck!
Also, how is your rear suspension set up? stock? coilovers? If you have a factory wing on the rear that should help clean up the air in the rear. Working with aerodynamics is really weird, air is lazy so it takes the easiest way around something.
Try putting pieces of string taped front to rear over the top of your car and have someone video tape you driving. Watch what happens to those strings, sometimes it takes little air deflectors to do what you need the air to do. Like on a airplane wing, or on the roof of a NASCAR car.
Let us know what you find.
Good luck!
12-03-2008, 11:17 AM
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Aero mods for your car gets really intense!!!Jusr adding a rear wing won't solve the problem.
You need to look at modifying Both ends of the car.
Any changes using a rear wing will promote front end lift...
so you will need to add a front end splitter.
Selecting the right combination of mods isn't easy for a back yard mechanic.
See if you can find a professional team using a rear wing/front splitter combo.
Good luck.
12-04-2008, 12:54 AM
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I just order a front end splitter and i have built my own all ready. So both should take care of the front. Rear Tires are a 315 (cant remember off hand) 17inch rim power pilots ps2 race tires/and nittos 555r and bfg DR this one best for straight lines but turns not so much. Cars getting parked for winter so will have to do more testing when it warms up. TO cold to even try anything now.
12-04-2008, 02:40 PM
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Maybe your best gauge of this would be the rolling
height of the rear end off the road (downforce =
squat, lb/in spring rate, there you go). Measure,
throw a bag of concrete in at about the wing
mount position, measure again, do the math.
Then rig something that will read the road gap
as you roll - maybe axle to frame or something
that won't grind off and make sparks
I've seen some retarded wings, like in San Diego
I see this red RX-7 with the wing so jacked that
it's set up for making lift. Dumb ***.
Excluding undercar air makes for suction, both
front and rear. While also reducing (rather than
adding) drag. Win-win, unlike the wing.
height of the rear end off the road (downforce =
squat, lb/in spring rate, there you go). Measure,
throw a bag of concrete in at about the wing
mount position, measure again, do the math.
Then rig something that will read the road gap
as you roll - maybe axle to frame or something
that won't grind off and make sparks
I've seen some retarded wings, like in San Diego
I see this red RX-7 with the wing so jacked that
it's set up for making lift. Dumb ***.
Excluding undercar air makes for suction, both
front and rear. While also reducing (rather than
adding) drag. Win-win, unlike the wing.
12-05-2008, 11:02 AM
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1. If your spinning at 90... the amount of downforce needed to overcome that would have such a drag force that you'd likely hit an aero brick wall by 150mph.
2. If you have a rear spoiler, then you need a front splitter; else you'll have serious and DANGEROUS front end lift.
3. There are plenty of aero equations and force equations that can be used to gauge the rough forces.
4. Having the wing outside of the airstream introduces it's own analysis. You'll be contending with "static" air meaning more drag.
5. You need the spoiler bolted to the frame. For instance, a 1000lbs of downforce like a Viper ACR means you'll likely destroy the trunk.
6. You'll need underbody work
7. I'm too lazy to toss up equations.
p.s. I take it this a vette application? Regardless of vehicle; if you've legitimately hit 200 and plan on going faster etc. etc. more power blah blah... Quit half-assing it and take it real race shop so that they can get the chassis all squared away and suspension set. You've got way too many variables beyond aero considerations that are playing roles as well. Anything less than that is unnecessarily risky.
2. If you have a rear spoiler, then you need a front splitter; else you'll have serious and DANGEROUS front end lift.
3. There are plenty of aero equations and force equations that can be used to gauge the rough forces.
4. Having the wing outside of the airstream introduces it's own analysis. You'll be contending with "static" air meaning more drag.
5. You need the spoiler bolted to the frame. For instance, a 1000lbs of downforce like a Viper ACR means you'll likely destroy the trunk.
6. You'll need underbody work
7. I'm too lazy to toss up equations.
p.s. I take it this a vette application? Regardless of vehicle; if you've legitimately hit 200 and plan on going faster etc. etc. more power blah blah... Quit half-assing it and take it real race shop so that they can get the chassis all squared away and suspension set. You've got way too many variables beyond aero considerations that are playing roles as well. Anything less than that is unnecessarily risky.
Last edited by OKcruising; 12-05-2008 at 11:08 AM.
12-05-2008, 12:55 PM
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Just an observation, but if he's spinning R-compund tires (Nitto 555Rs, Pilot PS2s) at 90mph going straight in a (presumed) 3k+lb car, he's got ~1000whp. A Freightliner will do 150mph with a 1000whp.
12-06-2008, 06:01 AM
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1. If your spinning at 90... the amount of downforce needed to overcome that would have such a drag force that you'd likely hit an aero brick wall by 150mph.
Not looking to stop it completely just be able to put more power to the ground if Its 100 more im happier . Reason i want to find a way to figure out how much added down force added vs hp Used up vs wind angle/size down force added
Also not worried about hp used up or willing to lessing the hp. Im just putting together a warhawk 6 bolt block hopefully running 20 psi of boost.
2. If you have a rear spoiler, then you need a front splitter; else you'll have serious and DANGEROUS front end lift.
please i know ive posted this a few times already i have ordered a nice splitter and have made my own all ready.
5. You need the spoiler bolted to the frame. For instance, a 1000lbs of downforce like a Viper ACR means you'll likely destroy the trunk.
I know in my pre posts already ive stated i have it hook on a trailer hitch type system. reason so i can easy pull it off. yes it mounts to the frame
6. You'll need underbody work
already done alums skins mounted under car in many places
7. I'm too lazy to toss up equations.
please this is the reason im asking questions.
p.s. I take it this a vette application? Regardless of vehicle; if you've legitimately hit 200 and plan on going faster etc. etc. more power blah blah... Quit half-assing it and take it real race shop so that they can get the chassis all squared away and suspension set. You've got way too many variables beyond aero considerations that are playing roles as well. Anything less than that is unnecessarily risky.
Not looking to stop it completely just be able to put more power to the ground if Its 100 more im happier . Reason i want to find a way to figure out how much added down force added vs hp Used up vs wind angle/size down force added
Also not worried about hp used up or willing to lessing the hp. Im just putting together a warhawk 6 bolt block hopefully running 20 psi of boost.
2. If you have a rear spoiler, then you need a front splitter; else you'll have serious and DANGEROUS front end lift.
please i know ive posted this a few times already i have ordered a nice splitter and have made my own all ready.
5. You need the spoiler bolted to the frame. For instance, a 1000lbs of downforce like a Viper ACR means you'll likely destroy the trunk.
I know in my pre posts already ive stated i have it hook on a trailer hitch type system. reason so i can easy pull it off. yes it mounts to the frame
6. You'll need underbody work
already done alums skins mounted under car in many places
7. I'm too lazy to toss up equations.
please this is the reason im asking questions.
p.s. I take it this a vette application? Regardless of vehicle; if you've legitimately hit 200 and plan on going faster etc. etc. more power blah blah... Quit half-assing it and take it real race shop so that they can get the chassis all squared away and suspension set. You've got way too many variables beyond aero considerations that are playing roles as well. Anything less than that is unnecessarily risky.
Not looking to go any faster dam happy with 200. Just want to be able to get more power to the ground. I build my cars my self (there my big play toys) There no reason for my cars other then i like building and learning while i build them. I did all my own tuning till about 658 hp which at that point i needed to take it to a shop to tune.
12-06-2008, 11:13 AM
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If you would like to pm me your number I will call and talk to you. Hopefully reason with u and show you. I am not making this up just to take up brandwith?
I'm base out of NJ center state if a local memeber would like to meet up with me over a beer/coffee and talking about cars and to look at my car I am fine with that on my day off.
I don't see why we have to keep trying to talk about everything but what I'm posting about?
NOT LOOKING TO START FIGHTING ON HERE PLEASE DONT ADD ANYTHING IF IT JUST TO MOCK THE THREAD
There been a few people that have help. To you guys thank you.
Last edited by BigRich954RR; 12-06-2008 at 11:38 AM.