How do NASCAR engines make 750+HP?
12-28-2007, 12:32 PM
#141
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the same gose for the Group B rally cars. everything was new back then! turbos wehre still in there infancy on racing cars, elctronics where still pants, materials where nothing like we have today. even the 4WD system where best discribed as agriculturely! compeard to a new WRC car, i think they would be slow on a rough and twisty gravel surface.
You are more right than you know. Remember the crazy old Audi Quattro cars? A lot of that AWD has its origins in a Swiss Military APC that VW helped build. No joke. I forget where I read that. The Group B drivers joke about how it took about 100M from the launch to get any boost. Even the 1000WHP GT42R guys get better spool than that in 2L apps, let alone the relatively small turbos (both compressor and turbine) that WRC cars run nowadays.
12-28-2007, 09:14 PM
#142
I think that to understand the engine you have to understand the rules which govern the series... NASCAR teams have been working with the same basic foundations for 30 years... 358 inches 1 830 carb... Heads and blocks supplyed by the manufacturer... Its the perfect example of refinement....back when it was 18 and 23 deg stuff 600 hp was a big deal.. then 600 to the tire... now its creaping up on 900 horse and 750+ to the tire..New heads and new mfg's have raised the bar... Chevy with the SB2 in 97 98 99 then Dodge with the R5 Ford with the SC1 Toyota with the phase 11 now chevy with the R07. Materials have gotten better than anyone would of thought 10 years ago allowing lighter more reliable packages....If there were no rules then Im sure a cup motor aould be a 2500 hp twin turbo something or other.... but theres lots and lots of rules...If you have even been to a post race tear down you'd see this...When you think of what they are.... 358 inches single 830 carb... pushrods .... on race gas making well over 800 hp 9300 RPM's (they would be over 10,000 if not for gear ratio rules)
12-30-2007, 12:51 AM
#146
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ve is probably up near 110-115%. a well built performance motor in a street car will be 90-95%. a high dollar street/strip motor can tag 100%, its kind of difficult but very doable. then comes the all out race motors like cup engines that try to use every part of physics possible to get that little bit more.
12-30-2007, 08:24 AM
#148
12-30-2007, 09:21 AM
#149
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There is a very good chance Cup plate engines do NOT use beehive springs. With the new larger restrictor plates for the high drag COT, power and rpm is up considerably. Guess which engine had the most power at Talladega?
Jon
06-29-2010, 07:13 PM
#150
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small block h/p well this comes from from a 17 year gm master engine builder,i have came up with deep pockets on several hi horse/torque builds,morethan i can count,have any of you builder/talkers /ever looked outside the rules,such as having zabbat eng have rollerbearings installed at the cam journals,gear to gear timing sets w/ roller bearing or crank & polished&rodds set up for roller bearing for ease of rolling resistance//alluminum heads r a must for heat disapation,a air gap intake/holley 780 continous 4 bbl,w/smaller primary jets &delayed secondarys.intake blueprinted to heads ,and heads to intake,clearance intake gskt to heads/intake/&carb 198 exhaust/218intake/backk face valves,trim guides to head,,deck block then bolt head & measure for amount of head facing,and thickness of headgasket//then ck cc of head to block/ck clearance on valve to block,clearance headers to block and use sacavaging header/x pipe to exit on pass. side.i have with chevrolet 17 plus yearscert. master builder ,hope you know can get 1100 horsepower from
2.2liter read up on it,parts are avilable at chevrolet and book on how 2////hopethis helps the masses[[[
]]]
2.2liter read up on it,parts are avilable at chevrolet and book on how 2////hopethis helps the masses[[[
]]] Last edited by lesplay2; 06-29-2010 at 07:33 PM.
06-30-2010, 02:33 AM
#151
form what i have read NASCAR engines are VERY restricted on what materials they can use for things like pistons. F1 guys (and some mad Greek EVO tuners) are running Berillium. This gives much higher heat transfer rates than ally form what i have been told.
Lesplay2 i like the ideas of reducing restriction. i think you could achive this with material selection alot easier. for example there are some titamium compersites rods (yes compersites!!) that done need to run big or little end bearings. this is because the coficent is lower than that of the bearing material! lol
as for 1100hp form 2.2ltr, i know of one 4G63 tuner that is looking to push 1750bhp from a 2.0ltr engine! He is running somehttng like 18-1 comp. raito and about 50psi of boost! this is using a stock cylinder head (obliously with work done to it). The guys have a billiet head being designed that should enable them, to push 2000bhp from 2.0ltr. THis would be on par with what F1 engiens of the 80s where running (reputed 1500bhp from a 1.5ltr engine) with greater pumping losses. Also this 2.0ltr engine is running oover 400bhp N/A! he has a VE well over 100%. This engine is achiving a BHP to L similar to a 1000cc bike engine.
Lesplay2 i like the ideas of reducing restriction. i think you could achive this with material selection alot easier. for example there are some titamium compersites rods (yes compersites!!) that done need to run big or little end bearings. this is because the coficent is lower than that of the bearing material! lol
as for 1100hp form 2.2ltr, i know of one 4G63 tuner that is looking to push 1750bhp from a 2.0ltr engine! He is running somehttng like 18-1 comp. raito and about 50psi of boost! this is using a stock cylinder head (obliously with work done to it). The guys have a billiet head being designed that should enable them, to push 2000bhp from 2.0ltr. THis would be on par with what F1 engiens of the 80s where running (reputed 1500bhp from a 1.5ltr engine) with greater pumping losses. Also this 2.0ltr engine is running oover 400bhp N/A! he has a VE well over 100%. This engine is achiving a BHP to L similar to a 1000cc bike engine.
06-30-2010, 09:29 AM
#152
well this comes from from a 17 year gm master engine builder,i have came up with deep pockets on several hi horse/torque builds,morethan i can count,have any of you builder/talkers /ever looked outside the rules,such as having zabbat eng have rollerbearings installed at the cam journals,gear to gear timing sets w/ roller bearing or crank & polished&rodds set up for roller bearing for ease of rolling resistance//alluminum heads r a must for heat disapation,a air gap intake/holley 780 continous 4 bbl,w/smaller primary jets &delayed secondarys.intake blueprinted to heads ,and heads to intake,clearance intake gskt to heads/intake/&carb 198 exhaust/218intake/backk face valves,trim guides to head,,deck block then bolt head & measure for amount of head facing,and thickness of headgasket//then ck cc of head to block/ck clearance on valve to block,clearance headers to block and use sacavaging header/x pipe to exit on pass. side.i have with chevrolet 17 plus yearscert. master builder ,hope you know can get 1100 horsepower from
2.2liter read up on it,parts are avilable at chevrolet and book on how 2////hopethis helps the masses[[[]]]
2.2liter read up on it,parts are avilable at chevrolet and book on how 2////hopethis helps the masses[[[
]]]
06-30-2010, 11:07 AM
#153
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Probably off a little here but you can pick up top end packages from some of these engine builders sb2 and what not for very reasonable. It will be a couple years old but 4 years ago when I did cylinder heads and intakes for these motors they are still better by far in design then what is available to most of us.
06-30-2010, 11:51 PM
#154
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well this comes from from a 17 year gm master engine builder,i have came up with deep pockets on several hi horse/torque builds,morethan i can count,have any of you builder/talkers /ever looked outside the rules,such as having zabbat eng have rollerbearings installed at the cam journals,gear to gear timing sets w/ roller bearing or crank & polished&rodds set up for roller bearing for ease of rolling resistance//alluminum heads r a must for heat disapation,a air gap intake/holley 780 continous 4 bbl,w/smaller primary jets &delayed secondarys.intake blueprinted to heads ,and heads to intake,clearance intake gskt to heads/intake/&carb 198 exhaust/218intake/backk face valves,trim guides to head,,deck block then bolt head & measure for amount of head facing,and thickness of headgasket//then ck cc of head to block/ck clearance on valve to block,clearance headers to block and use sacavaging header/x pipe to exit on pass. side.i have with chevrolet 17 plus yearscert. master builder ,hope you know can get 1100 horsepower from
2.2liter read up on it,parts are avilable at chevrolet and book on how 2////hopethis helps the masses[[[]]]
2.2liter read up on it,parts are avilable at chevrolet and book on how 2////hopethis helps the masses[[[
]]]
07-04-2010, 04:09 PM
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First off i feel like i learned A LOT from reading this thread.
Secondly, can you link me to where i can read more about this EVO build please?
Secondly, can you link me to where i can read more about this EVO build please?
form what i have read NASCAR engines are VERY restricted on what materials they can use for things like pistons. F1 guys (and some mad Greek EVO tuners) are running Berillium. This gives much higher heat transfer rates than ally form what i have been told.
Lesplay2 i like the ideas of reducing restriction. i think you could achive this with material selection alot easier. for example there are some titamium compersites rods (yes compersites!!) that done need to run big or little end bearings. this is because the coficent is lower than that of the bearing material! lol
as for 1100hp form 2.2ltr, i know of one 4G63 tuner that is looking to push 1750bhp from a 2.0ltr engine! He is running somehttng like 18-1 comp. raito and about 50psi of boost! this is using a stock cylinder head (obliously with work done to it). The guys have a billiet head being designed that should enable them, to push 2000bhp from 2.0ltr. THis would be on par with what F1 engiens of the 80s where running (reputed 1500bhp from a 1.5ltr engine) with greater pumping losses. Also this 2.0ltr engine is running oover 400bhp N/A! he has a VE well over 100%. This engine is achiving a BHP to L similar to a 1000cc bike engine.
Lesplay2 i like the ideas of reducing restriction. i think you could achive this with material selection alot easier. for example there are some titamium compersites rods (yes compersites!!) that done need to run big or little end bearings. this is because the coficent is lower than that of the bearing material! lol
as for 1100hp form 2.2ltr, i know of one 4G63 tuner that is looking to push 1750bhp from a 2.0ltr engine! He is running somehttng like 18-1 comp. raito and about 50psi of boost! this is using a stock cylinder head (obliously with work done to it). The guys have a billiet head being designed that should enable them, to push 2000bhp from 2.0ltr. THis would be on par with what F1 engiens of the 80s where running (reputed 1500bhp from a 1.5ltr engine) with greater pumping losses. Also this 2.0ltr engine is running oover 400bhp N/A! he has a VE well over 100%. This engine is achiving a BHP to L similar to a 1000cc bike engine.
03-09-2011, 02:45 PM
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800+hp I'll be happy to sell anybody on here one of my rental SB-2's. Most are roller engines as they ran in BGN, CTS and ARCA. I got about 20 of them sitting in the floor ready to go.
As far as how is the power made it is pretty simple. You have to match the fuel burn rate, to the piston speed you are running. This is consistent with every competition engine on the planet.
The build sheet is not trick and the engines are not that expensive $25-50K depending on how extreme you get and how many parts are new or used. HP will range from about 750-850 depending on how good your heads are and how high you want to turn the engine.
Heads flow 425+ CFM ( I flow at 25" ), cams 270* range, / .800+ lift, rockers 1.7-2.2, 750 & 830 carbs ( pretty trick to get more than 1HP per carb cfm ). Intakes are about $5K for a good one. Bryant 3.33 crank, 6.2" Carr rods, CP/Mahle/JE pistons with a dish or whatever to make 12:1 with 40-50cc heads. 2.180 intakes 1.625 exhausts, stainless headers about $5k Set for good ones. Uni-Boring blocks with 50-65mm cam bearings, 4.100-4.200 bores, if you want to get really trick you get a Twisted block if you want to make 850hp range as the cylinders start to distort ad lose ring seal when you get above 800hp ( compacted graphite about +50# ) .
We qualified at Charlotte and Atlanta over 10,000 rpm a couple times with some pretty cool test stuff from PRS and HMS. Those engines were junk after 200 miles.
We were able to get 4 practices and races out of engines held under 8500rpm and they still made 750-800hp.
As far as flat tappet cams they used to be welded stellite, now they are made out of VAR 8620 Billet, pretty funky alloys and treatment to last a race. The big core billets are $1000+ if you buy 50 at a time. Grinding them is a real pain and expensive but there are a couple guys out there really good at it.
I think that is about it, not real trick just a SBC with good parts. The key is matching everything together to get the system to work, but that is a given with any proper race engine.
If you need any parts, hit me with an e-mail.
As far as how is the power made it is pretty simple. You have to match the fuel burn rate, to the piston speed you are running. This is consistent with every competition engine on the planet.
The build sheet is not trick and the engines are not that expensive $25-50K depending on how extreme you get and how many parts are new or used. HP will range from about 750-850 depending on how good your heads are and how high you want to turn the engine.
Heads flow 425+ CFM ( I flow at 25" ), cams 270* range, / .800+ lift, rockers 1.7-2.2, 750 & 830 carbs ( pretty trick to get more than 1HP per carb cfm ). Intakes are about $5K for a good one. Bryant 3.33 crank, 6.2" Carr rods, CP/Mahle/JE pistons with a dish or whatever to make 12:1 with 40-50cc heads. 2.180 intakes 1.625 exhausts, stainless headers about $5k Set for good ones. Uni-Boring blocks with 50-65mm cam bearings, 4.100-4.200 bores, if you want to get really trick you get a Twisted block if you want to make 850hp range as the cylinders start to distort ad lose ring seal when you get above 800hp ( compacted graphite about +50# ) .
We qualified at Charlotte and Atlanta over 10,000 rpm a couple times with some pretty cool test stuff from PRS and HMS. Those engines were junk after 200 miles.
We were able to get 4 practices and races out of engines held under 8500rpm and they still made 750-800hp.
As far as flat tappet cams they used to be welded stellite, now they are made out of VAR 8620 Billet, pretty funky alloys and treatment to last a race. The big core billets are $1000+ if you buy 50 at a time. Grinding them is a real pain and expensive but there are a couple guys out there really good at it.
I think that is about it, not real trick just a SBC with good parts. The key is matching everything together to get the system to work, but that is a given with any proper race engine.
If you need any parts, hit me with an e-mail.