I Beam vs H Beam
06-13-2006, 07:32 AM
#1
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I Beam vs H Beam Just wondering whats the difference between I beam and H beam rods? I've picked up a set of Crower 6.125" I beam rods for my 402/408 (Undecided) project. Should I get rid of them for a set of eagle H beams?
Cheers.
Cheers.
06-13-2006, 07:49 AM
#3
Rods H-Beam rods are usually considered to be stronger than I-Beam, but it depends on the application, I-Beam are perfectly suitable unless you are planning on spinning the motor to the upper RPM threshold often or if you are using any kind of power adders, If N/A then the I-Beams should be ok..
06-13-2006, 08:37 AM
#5
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"they" say I beams have more compressive strength
and the H beams are more for high rpm applications
I am using billet crower tapered I beams rated to 800+HP
crower rates their sportsman rods at 8200 rpm and 500hp
I suspect a billet H beam would be better than the forged I beams
weight is something to take into consideration also
just my .02
and the H beams are more for high rpm applications
I am using billet crower tapered I beams rated to 800+HP
crower rates their sportsman rods at 8200 rpm and 500hp
I suspect a billet H beam would be better than the forged I beams
weight is something to take into consideration also
just my .02
06-13-2006, 08:49 AM
#6
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The quality of the rod is more important than the design. Both I and H beam rods will work in most any engine if the parts are built from quality materials.
My personal turbo race engine(Oliver) and turbo daily driver(Howards) use I beam rods.
Kurt
My personal turbo race engine(Oliver) and turbo daily driver(Howards) use I beam rods.
Kurt
06-13-2006, 03:25 PM
#7
Originally Posted by 427
The quality of the rod is more important than the design. Both I and H beam rods will work in most any engine if the parts are built from quality materials.
I-beams tend to be lighter. Compressive loads are irrelevant.
Doesn't Crower rate the Sportsman to the 500hp range, which is high for a street/strip 347 but low-to-midrange for a 400 or larger.
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06-18-2006, 05:03 PM
#8
FormerVendor
Yes the design and quality are the two things I look at. The Manley you are talking about is probably the lighter weight design with smaller bolts for lower hp apps but is still a nice rod. The Eagles are heavier and have more rod bolt so they are ultimately stronger if you need that. I've used tons of Eagle H-Beams in all sorts of engines with no problems and of course like Kurt for W2W said there are lots of high end H and I-Beams used in every app and they all work great.
Carrillo popularized the H-Beam rods and then many copied them but the Carrillo is as legendary in quality as it is in design and you will find H and I-Beams all the way to F1 so both designs have their merits.
Carrillo popularized the H-Beam rods and then many copied them but the Carrillo is as legendary in quality as it is in design and you will find H and I-Beams all the way to F1 so both designs have their merits.
06-24-2006, 07:16 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ
QFT.
I-beams tend to be lighter. Compressive loads are irrelevant.
Doesn't Crower rate the Sportsman to the 500hp range, which is high for a street/strip 347 but low-to-midrange for a 400 or larger.
I-beams tend to be lighter. Compressive loads are irrelevant.
Doesn't Crower rate the Sportsman to the 500hp range, which is high for a street/strip 347 but low-to-midrange for a 400 or larger.
06-24-2006, 07:47 PM
#10
All lightweight rods are I-beam. 'Lightweight' H-beam rods are lighter than regular H-beam rods. 35-40 years ago Carillo made H-beam rods and they were the best. Not because they were H-beam, but the way Carillo made them. Until the Chinese clones, I don't recall any other H-beams.
The lightweight Carillos only come in I-beam. The Crower catalog only shows I-beams. All Lunati's are I-beam. Dyers are I-beams. Kings are I-beams.
However, if you want lightweight your rod journal should be 1.771 or 1.88. Less friction also. And you piston pins should be .866. Makes the whole rod smaller. And then you could make them piston guided. Maybe another 30gms.
The lightweight Carillos only come in I-beam. The Crower catalog only shows I-beams. All Lunati's are I-beam. Dyers are I-beams. Kings are I-beams.
However, if you want lightweight your rod journal should be 1.771 or 1.88. Less friction also. And you piston pins should be .866. Makes the whole rod smaller. And then you could make them piston guided. Maybe another 30gms.
06-24-2006, 11:45 PM
#11
FormerVendor
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
All lightweight rods are I-beam. 'Lightweight' H-beam rods are lighter than regular H-beam rods. 35-40 years ago Carillo made H-beam rods and they were the best. Not because they were H-beam, but the way Carillo made them. Until the Chinese clones, I don't recall any other H-beams.
The lightweight Carillos only come in I-beam. The Crower catalog only shows I-beams. All Lunati's are I-beam. Dyers are I-beams. Kings are I-beams.
However, if you want lightweight your rod journal should be 1.771 or 1.88. Less friction also. And you piston pins should be .866. Makes the whole rod smaller. And then you could make them piston guided. Maybe another 30gms.
The lightweight Carillos only come in I-beam. The Crower catalog only shows I-beams. All Lunati's are I-beam. Dyers are I-beams. Kings are I-beams.
However, if you want lightweight your rod journal should be 1.771 or 1.88. Less friction also. And you piston pins should be .866. Makes the whole rod smaller. And then you could make them piston guided. Maybe another 30gms.
I agree though that the shape has lees to do with the rods than the quality. Lentz has some good I-Beams in NASCAR too.
06-25-2006, 10:15 AM
#12
I don't have any experience with Cup motors!
Which Dyer's rods are H-beam? Crower will make an H-beam for you, but their lightweight 'MaxiLights' are I-beam. They are also the rod whose design (beam and big and small ends sized for the journal) that I seem to like the most.
Which Dyer's rods are H-beam? Crower will make an H-beam for you, but their lightweight 'MaxiLights' are I-beam. They are also the rod whose design (beam and big and small ends sized for the journal) that I seem to like the most.
06-25-2006, 12:04 PM
#13
FormerVendor
David,
All rods I've ever seen from Dyers are H-Beam! We use them on several engines actually.
Here's their literature actually below:
Product Specifications
All rods I've ever seen from Dyers are H-Beam! We use them on several engines actually.
Here's their literature actually below:
Product Specifications
Rods- Our forgings start with 300M steel that is created through a special high pressure closed die process. This forging is completely CNC machined to eliminate any lapping and inclusions that could be fracture points. All rods are magnafluxed and sonic tested before heat treat.
All rods are machined into the H-beam design by CNC to remove maximum material with the accuracy of 1/1000th of an inch. Our crank and pin ends are CNC drilled and bored to assure accuracy, concentricity, and size. All radii, tapping and bushing bores are CNC'd to eliminate inconsistencies, mistakes and improve weight balance.
After machining, our rods are Vacuum Furnace Heat Treated, Cryogenically Treated and Tempered for the best combination of toughness and strength. The rods are shot peened before the ARP or SPS-CARR bolts and AMPCO 45 Bronze pin bushings are installed and rolled. The rods are then put into matched sets by weight.
In Summary, the features of our rods: manufactured from U.S. Made 300M steel forgings, which is 20% stronger than 4340 steel. The H-beam design with a double banded cap for ultimate strength, we use ARP2000 bolts as standard equipment (250ksi) with ARP3.5 (285ksi) and SPS-CARR (285ksi) as optional bolts, CNC machined to eliminate mistakes, Vacuum Furnace Heat Treated with Cryogenic Treatment, include AMPCO 45 Bronze Pin Bushings for maximum strength with low deformation. After final assembly, our crank and pin ends are parallel honed to an accuracy of 50 millionths. Taking all these features into account, you can see that we are making TOP RODS!
ARP2000 Bolts- An exclusive, hybrid-alloy developed to deliver superior strength and better fatigue properties. While 8740 and ARP2000 share similar characteristics--ARP2000 is capable of achieving clamp loads in the 215,000-220,000psi range. ARP2000 is used widely in short track and drag racing as an up-grade from 8740 chrome moly in both steel and aluminum rods. Stress corrosion and hydrogen embrittlement are typically not a problem, providing care is taken during installation.
ARP3.5 (AMS5844)- While similar to Inconel 718, these super-alloys are found in many jet engine and aerospace applications where heat and stress attack the life of critical components. The high cobalt content of this alloy, while expensive, delivers a material with superior fatigue characteristics and typically tensile strength in the 270,000psi range. The immunity to hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion of these materials is a significant design consideration. These materials are primarily used in connecting rods where extremely high loads, high RPM and endurance are important factors--Formula 1, Winston Cup and CART applications.
SPS-CARR- Fasteners are manufactured from a proprietarily designed material referred to as "Multiphase". The material exhibits a minimum ultimate tensile strength of 260,000 pounds. The related properties of ductily and elasticity are unsurpassed in comparison to the tensile strength. The SPS-CARR bolts meet and surpass the most stringent testing and validation standards employed in the design of aerospace fasteners.
All rods are machined into the H-beam design by CNC to remove maximum material with the accuracy of 1/1000th of an inch. Our crank and pin ends are CNC drilled and bored to assure accuracy, concentricity, and size. All radii, tapping and bushing bores are CNC'd to eliminate inconsistencies, mistakes and improve weight balance.
After machining, our rods are Vacuum Furnace Heat Treated, Cryogenically Treated and Tempered for the best combination of toughness and strength. The rods are shot peened before the ARP or SPS-CARR bolts and AMPCO 45 Bronze pin bushings are installed and rolled. The rods are then put into matched sets by weight.
In Summary, the features of our rods: manufactured from U.S. Made 300M steel forgings, which is 20% stronger than 4340 steel. The H-beam design with a double banded cap for ultimate strength, we use ARP2000 bolts as standard equipment (250ksi) with ARP3.5 (285ksi) and SPS-CARR (285ksi) as optional bolts, CNC machined to eliminate mistakes, Vacuum Furnace Heat Treated with Cryogenic Treatment, include AMPCO 45 Bronze Pin Bushings for maximum strength with low deformation. After final assembly, our crank and pin ends are parallel honed to an accuracy of 50 millionths. Taking all these features into account, you can see that we are making TOP RODS!
ARP2000 Bolts- An exclusive, hybrid-alloy developed to deliver superior strength and better fatigue properties. While 8740 and ARP2000 share similar characteristics--ARP2000 is capable of achieving clamp loads in the 215,000-220,000psi range. ARP2000 is used widely in short track and drag racing as an up-grade from 8740 chrome moly in both steel and aluminum rods. Stress corrosion and hydrogen embrittlement are typically not a problem, providing care is taken during installation.
ARP3.5 (AMS5844)- While similar to Inconel 718, these super-alloys are found in many jet engine and aerospace applications where heat and stress attack the life of critical components. The high cobalt content of this alloy, while expensive, delivers a material with superior fatigue characteristics and typically tensile strength in the 270,000psi range. The immunity to hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion of these materials is a significant design consideration. These materials are primarily used in connecting rods where extremely high loads, high RPM and endurance are important factors--Formula 1, Winston Cup and CART applications.
SPS-CARR- Fasteners are manufactured from a proprietarily designed material referred to as "Multiphase". The material exhibits a minimum ultimate tensile strength of 260,000 pounds. The related properties of ductily and elasticity are unsurpassed in comparison to the tensile strength. The SPS-CARR bolts meet and surpass the most stringent testing and validation standards employed in the design of aerospace fasteners.
06-25-2006, 07:28 PM
#14
My mistake. I haven't done this in a few years...with several engine builders in the area and lots of phone calls. Cryo'd, 300M and I thought I-beam. My memory may be failing me here...
Last edited by DavidNJ; 06-25-2006 at 07:36 PM.
06-26-2006, 09:44 PM
#16
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by joecar
At their thinnest cross-section (excluding the ends), which one has the greater cross-sectional area (I or H)...?
06-26-2006, 10:11 PM
#18
TECH Fanatic
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
And what about Pauter?
Pauter seems to be swimming upstream in the high performance rod river.
06-26-2006, 10:44 PM
#20
FormerVendor
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
And what about Pauter?