355z28

iTrader: (8)

Reading in hotrod and theres a kit called the zpack, Instead of using 5 frictions for 3rd and 4th it uses 15. Any expierence with this?

Greaseymec

iTrader: (9)

I have seen them warp. In a few cases, they warped badly. Not my first choice for the 3-4 pack. If you are looking for a drop in pack, go with the Alto Red 3-4, 9 plate kit. Still not my first choice, but a very good kit.

Mec

2002CAMAROSSLS1T56

iTrader: (2)

I hate to say it but search somewhere, here or google.
I did and found very mixed reviews of it so I didn't get it.
Still from what I've read it's about 30% like it and 70% don't like it.

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

we have used them in our level 2 for years with excellent results , i like them

05gto60

iTrader: (3)

i wouldnt do it. i had them go out on me cause they use thinner metal plates to get more clutch plates, and the thinner steels dont disperse the heat well. i lost 3/4 shortly after my 402 went in (it was probably on its way out already, but the extra power didnt help).

now ive got the red racing clutches and kolene normal size steels. they are holding up good so far

Greaseymec

iTrader: (9)

To be fair, the Z Packs I have seen damaged have been fairly abused. Lots of hot laps with high horse power engines took their toll. Full throttle upshifts and a hot 3-4 clutch pack dont mix. Guess that covers just about any brand or design.

Mec

FLT

iTrader: (1)

I personally do not like them and did some testing with them before they were released to the public. I found that in less than an hour on the dyno the clutch material would wear funny. I was finding what looked like very fine metal in the unit that I'm confident it was from the clutches. I'll have to see if I have the photos of those clutch packs. Here is a set that I removed this last week from a competitors unit that had very low miles on it. As you can see there is still grease on the pump that was pulled from the unit. I personally would stick with a set of Borgs from a 65. Tried and true!

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

I think you will find that each builder has a different idea on what they use. Some like one style and others another.

The z pack vince is showing has obviously been slipping I have seen ALTO, RAYBESTOS AND BORG clutches look like that also when they have been slipping for what ever reason.
I can show Zpacks from 30000 mile cars with 100s of 10 second passes on them that look like new also.
But with any clutch slipping for whatever reason the result is similar to whats shown above.

Nice blue grease its never warm enough here for that stuff to thick lol . The green is even worse in this weather it like concret.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

performabuilt your level 2 uses the 15 disc Zpack set? Is the purpose to increase the amount of clutch surface? Also isn't your levle 2 and 3 similiar when it comes to the 3/4 clutch pack.

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

The Level 2 uses the zpack The level 3 Uses the RAYBESTOS STAGE 1 RACING CLUTCH set.
We have had excellent results with both. Personally though I have used the ZPACK in several of my own cars over the years and have been very pleased with the results.

There is a small clutch area increase. The real advantage however is cooling being that each plate has friction material on one side and steel on the other so steel is always exposed to fluid. Metal to liquid is always a better heat conductor than metal through a non conductive clutch material.
Of course any clutch set that is allowed to slip excessively will burn/warp and even melt. Slip equals heat and no clutch set will survive that long.

As I mentioned I have seen every clutch set made melted down at some point in my years, And at the same time I have seen cheap paper clutch sets hold up in some stressful environments too.
The clutch set makes some difference-AREA, HEAT DISPATION,FRICTION CHOEFFICENT. But when all is said and done the hydraulics is what matter most.

The Raybestos Stage ones are a bit more aggressive as far as friction goes. They To have served well. We have been using those in the level 3 for over a year now with excellent results.
As they say 1 size does not fit all. I have used about every clutch set out there and had good results with most, So I won’t say ones necessarily better than the other. Each builder has there own preferences with their particular builds and perhaps in that builders set up the one they choose does work better.I am not one to show on clutch set damaged from heat and say that the type set it is is why. Because I know that more than likley it was not the clutch set but some other issue that resulted in the clutch set being burned or other wise damaged.

That does not mean it will work well in every builders set up.
The BORGS, ALTO and RAYBESTOS are all good products.
I guess it really comes down to your own experience with the type you use. Sorta like shoes one guy will swear by one brand another by the other
.
I used to know a guy who ran only the cheaper alomatic paper clutches in his own car. It turned 11s every weekend and once a year he would tear the trans down to inspect and always made a point to show them to me and sure enough each time they looked good as new. For him those worked just fine. This was with a 700r4 in the 80s.So its allot about preference and more about the hydraulics IMO.
And even in that area there is as they say "More than one way to skin a cat" no offense to cat people I have three myself.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

Help educate me, if there is only a small increase in clutch surface by running more clutches how do you get the 3/4 clutches to handle so much torque? I've had 4L60E transmissions loose 3/4 clutches on 200 hp suburbans. How do you get them to survive so much abuse?

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

its apply and hydraulics. Getting the right amount of fluid there at the right presure. Getting the clearance just right and
making it all work,
You want the clutches to apply and have minimal slip but at the same time you dont want them to hit so hard they damage or break the mechanical parts.
Its certainley something you have to play with and eack parts/hydraulic combination a builder uses is going to be different. For instance I would say every vendor on here has a different way of getting to the same place. Each of course beleaving theres to be the best , And each arived there through trial and error over considerable time and money. But it isnt so much one ways better than the other. Its just ddifferent ways of getting to the same place and in the end its not the parts or what anyone beleaves but the results and from what I can see every vendor on here has those to show.
Unfortunatley I cannot go into all the details of a build since those are the things that make ourselves and the other vendors who and what we are and I am sure the other vendors are not likley to do the same. I am sure you understand.
Frank

Greaseymec

iTrader: (9)

My favorate 3-4 frictions are .066 thick hardened steel core. (stock 4L65E plates) I stack them with Kolene steels and beat on them with 230 psi line pressure. No issues. Here is a pic of the last Z pack I removed from a 99 Firebird running low 12s. Friction materal was still in good shape and the sleel had no blueing. Just warped. Not picking on ya, just getting it out there.

Mec

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

I have actually see that before a couple times. But the set looked great otherwise. I spoke with a rep from raybestos and he said that that happening was really not and issue. And went on to explain for instance some cars actually use waved plates at the ends or between the frictions , Which I have seen before. But as he said and I noted the clutch area and material looked good but like i said only a couple times and in each there were signs of other issues alotta heat.
At the same time I just recently tore one down that was a high 10s car GTO been out about two years, Guy was doing and engine build up and sent in to upgrade to a level 3 and it looked perfect across the board.In fact the trans had many many high ten and low 11s passes on it and everything in the trans looked like new, I ask him about miles he said about 20000 so was happy with the results.

The one you are showing looks like the two i did see like that , looks good in every other way and I bet flattens right out when you push down.

But I will say the ZPACK is in every one of our level 2 units well with the exception of some from late 07 when the zpack was not available. And we have had a excellent service from them and the level 2 is about 80 percent of the 4l60e/65e we sell. And the few I have gotten to look back into I have been pleased with what I have found.
I was however not pleased with the alto reds and cohlene sets we used for a while. I cant say we saw more failures or anything but I did note that they showed more signs of wear on them in the higher powered cars than the zpack did.

Of course when you have been at it as long as I have "1982" Really before if it does not have to be professionally. You realize that every clutch set can fail and in most instances its not the clutch sets fault as long as you have enough presure and area.
I remember when the alto reds were king, Then the blue plate etc etc. But I have seen as i mentioned earlier a set of alomatic WHITE PAPER frictions run in 10 and 11 second 4500 pound cars and never miss a beat.
But could show pictures of about every style and type of clutch made that was burned up or failed also.
Thats why I originally replied that every builder will have a preference. IMO in most cases ones not really better than the other, But works for them so thats what they like. Thats why You will never see me cut down on what another builder uses or is happey with. Because That works for them and so is good for them.

FLT

iTrader: (1)

Personally that picture in my opinion is the beginning to the end. Those steels that are used are to thin in that pack. I'll never use them for that reason alone. Look again at the pictures I posted of the failed or failing Zpack. Notice how the second plate against first plate on the apply plate has half of the friction on it and the other half is completely gone. That is what the pack Greaseymec posted would have looked like in a while. Just an observation. Vince

chris718

Listen up kids.I was 1 of the original testers for the z pack for Frank Slocum at raybestos.Feel free to contact him at raybestos powertrains website about it.The pack does work although it is not what I consider to be optimum.Thats my opinion.But here are the facts.The biggest problem is the oil fed to the clutch.Clutches dont go out in 2 days or 2 weeks because they are poorly designed.Any builder with common sense knows this but the ones who dont want to accept failure will blame it on the clutches. Its funny how some point out what everyone else is doing wrong as if they are perfect.There is not enough clutch capacity there and the failure rates for the 3rd clutch are hi for most low 10 and hi 9 second cars with the 4l60/65/70Es.My approach now is that I redesisgned the input hpousing with a larger apply piston and more clutches.Patent pending.Ihave made the input drum .The thin 3/4 hi energy frictions with the 106 steels and even a 106 on the bottom and top for the pressure and apply plates works the best from what i have gathered.ARES ,MARES KAI KOUKOUNARES

performabuilt

iTrader: (25)

Well said Chris thats basically what I was saying generally its not the clutch sets fault when the clutch set fails and yes remember I ask you about that new drum the other day . I am looking forward to seeing it. and likley using it. Dont forget my 2004r parts and that extra govenor please
Frank

Greaseymec

iTrader: (9)

Well put. I applaud the professionalism shown between sponsors in this forum.

100% acurate.

Also, I think Vince still suspects that I am a industry spy.

Mec

FLT

iTrader: (1)

Chris, The name sounds familiar. I wonder if he was the same rep that brought those into a shop I was working in. However I tested them for more then just the 60. We decided against using them. It is what it is.

As for the new drum you are pimping, time will tell if it is the best thing since sliced bread. I see you making all types of different stuff and some of it has worked for me in the past. I'll leave it at that. Not sure about using a steel for a pressure plate or an apply plate but I have seen it done. Good luck with the new project. Vince

2002CAMAROSSLS1T56

iTrader: (2)

I'm waiting on the John Kilgore 4L675E