higher stall converters and freeway racing
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From: Glendale, CA
higher stall converters and freeway racing I like to go fast on the freeway. My 340RWHP as of now helps me do that fairly easily. A friend of mine has the same mods as mine, but with a Vig3200 converter. He dynoed 308RWHP.
I know that when I put in a stall, my HP figures will go down, will this make me slower on the freeway? Or does it not matter when my converter's locked? And does it lock up in 3rd and 4th gear at WOT (that's where I do the top speed stuff).
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks.
I know that when I put in a stall, my HP figures will go down, will this make me slower on the freeway? Or does it not matter when my converter's locked? And does it lock up in 3rd and 4th gear at WOT (that's where I do the top speed stuff).
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks.
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From: Troy, AL
Your peak numbers will not go down much on the dyno (if any) if you pick a very efficient converter. Your locked numbers may actually go up a little since a higher stalling converter is smaller and lighter than the stock converter.
Highway racing wil be GREATLY improved with a higher stalling converter. Your engine makes better power at 4000 than it does 3000 and better power at 5000 than it does at 4000, right? Well, a higher stalling converter will keep you in the heart of your power MUCH better than a stock converter.
As far as absolute top speed running (talking about 155 MPH+ for you), an aftermarket converter should actually help this since your top speed is going to come in OD where your RPMs are way too low for great power with the stock converter. The higher stalling converter will keep those RPMs where they need to be to keep you accelerating.
And no, your PCM is not programmed to lock the converter at WOT but you can do this with programming. I programmed mine to lock in 3rd at 6200 RPM (my engine can spin to at least 6800.)
Highway racing wil be GREATLY improved with a higher stalling converter. Your engine makes better power at 4000 than it does 3000 and better power at 5000 than it does at 4000, right? Well, a higher stalling converter will keep you in the heart of your power MUCH better than a stock converter.
As far as absolute top speed running (talking about 155 MPH+ for you), an aftermarket converter should actually help this since your top speed is going to come in OD where your RPMs are way too low for great power with the stock converter. The higher stalling converter will keep those RPMs where they need to be to keep you accelerating.
And no, your PCM is not programmed to lock the converter at WOT but you can do this with programming. I programmed mine to lock in 3rd at 6200 RPM (my engine can spin to at least 6800.)
How do you decide where to lock? Seems like only
locking from 6200 - 6800 would just be "busy work"
for the TCC, only spending a few tenths of a second
there before moving on?
Would it be something like, where the slip RPM hits
its "plateau" (there will always be just a little slip)?
How much slip rate do you think the TCC can stand
engaging against without a misfire detect, etc.?
locking from 6200 - 6800 would just be "busy work"
for the TCC, only spending a few tenths of a second
there before moving on?
Would it be something like, where the slip RPM hits
its "plateau" (there will always be just a little slip)?
How much slip rate do you think the TCC can stand
engaging against without a misfire detect, etc.?
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Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Lexington, NC
Hey Colonel my dyno numbers before my converter are in my sig...my ones after my TC were 291 RWHP and 308 RWTQ Is this because the converter is still unlocked at peak, I plan on getting edit and doing some dyno tuning myself...also my car dosen't fell as strong after the converter, this might sound a little like im uneducated but it want spin the tires as easy, longer. You guys say with the new converter ya'll can nail it at 45ish and rape the tires, I have to take my car down to about 25-30 for this, could this be due to TM, like I said it will be coming out soon when I buy Edit. Thanks guys for the info, its much appreciated.
Wes
Wes
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From: Troy, AL
Jimmy, I programmed it to lock at the top of 3rd just to give me extra MPH before having to shift into 4th. I don't like the strain it puts on the 3-4 clutchpack when you shift into 4th at WOT. What it effectively means is that I can run about 158 MPH in 3rd instead of only 150. I chose 6200 because the power peaks at 5900 and holds this power until 6500. It takes a little time for the converter to fully lock so I figured if I programmed it for 6200 it would be locked just at the right time to keep the power from dropping without pulling it back below the HP peak. It worked perfectly. The RPMs actually pull back just a little when the converter locks and then start back moving forward. This way I spend more time between 5900 and 6500 where I'm making maximum power, I get the gearing advantage of 3rd (compared to 4th) all the way to 158 MPH, and I spare the clutches the strain of a 4th gear WOT shift so long as I let out of it before 158 MPH.
TECH Senior Member
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From: Troy, AL
onebadz, yes, it sounds like your converter was unlocked. A stock converter only loses about 6 RWHP when unlocked as opposed to locked. Your 3500 should lose over 20 RWHP unlocked v/s locked.
TM can be an issue (I'd delete it) but even with TM, your TCI 3500 will totally annialate the stock converter in any and all situations. Take it to the track, you'll see. Hey, maybe you're just hooking better for some reason.
TM can be an issue (I'd delete it) but even with TM, your TCI 3500 will totally annialate the stock converter in any and all situations. Take it to the track, you'll see. Hey, maybe you're just hooking better for some reason.
getting torque management deleted on 01-02's is ABSOLUTELY KEY. My car was crap until I tuned it... Like it really did not feel good driving around even. Now it goes low 12's on the street on nittos essentially stock.
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Thread Starter
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From: Glendale, CA
Thanks for your advice, Colonel. I guess I should start savig up for a more efficient converter than the Vig3600.
I heard midwest is coming out with some more efficient converters? Do you know anything about that?
I was just worried because I was told that RWHP = top speed and I certainly did not want my top speed to be lower because of the inefficiency of an aftermarket high stall converter (generally speaking). I think that Yanks' SS series are supposed to be some of the most efficient ones out there? Correct me if I'm wrong.
And yeah logically, if a higher stall converter lets you start off the next gear at a mugh higher RPM where there is more power, then you would be going a lot faster. I miss my Vig3600 but I had to sell it.
My main problem with the old converter was the heat and my cooler not working properly and it frying my clutches, bands, and all that good stuff. But I digress...
Thanks!
I heard midwest is coming out with some more efficient converters? Do you know anything about that?
I was just worried because I was told that RWHP = top speed and I certainly did not want my top speed to be lower because of the inefficiency of an aftermarket high stall converter (generally speaking). I think that Yanks' SS series are supposed to be some of the most efficient ones out there? Correct me if I'm wrong.
And yeah logically, if a higher stall converter lets you start off the next gear at a mugh higher RPM where there is more power, then you would be going a lot faster. I miss my Vig3600 but I had to sell it.
My main problem with the old converter was the heat and my cooler not working properly and it frying my clutches, bands, and all that good stuff. But I digress...
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by BigBlackZ28
Thanks for your advice, Colonel. I guess I should start savig up for a more efficient converter than the Vig3600.
I heard midwest is coming out with some more efficient converters? Do you know anything about that?
I was just worried because I was told that RWHP = top speed and I certainly did not want my top speed to be lower because of the inefficiency of an aftermarket high stall converter (generally speaking). I think that Yanks' SS series are supposed to be some of the most efficient ones out there? Correct me if I'm wrong.
And yeah logically, if a higher stall converter lets you start off the next gear at a mugh higher RPM where there is more power, then you would be going a lot faster. I miss my Vig3600 but I had to sell it.
My main problem with the old converter was the heat and my cooler not working properly and it frying my clutches, bands, and all that good stuff. But I digress...
Thanks!
I heard midwest is coming out with some more efficient converters? Do you know anything about that?
I was just worried because I was told that RWHP = top speed and I certainly did not want my top speed to be lower because of the inefficiency of an aftermarket high stall converter (generally speaking). I think that Yanks' SS series are supposed to be some of the most efficient ones out there? Correct me if I'm wrong.
And yeah logically, if a higher stall converter lets you start off the next gear at a mugh higher RPM where there is more power, then you would be going a lot faster. I miss my Vig3600 but I had to sell it.
My main problem with the old converter was the heat and my cooler not working properly and it frying my clutches, bands, and all that good stuff. But I digress...
Thanks!
No on a more serious note, my vig seems to be pretty inefficient. It's great from low speeds but on the freeway, it just doesn't do it for me. Maybe I have to tune it but BigBlack, I would seriously recommend the ss3800.
BTW, I talked to the other ws6 owner at school BIGBLACK. He told me he runs 11.8 in the 1/4 STOCK (6-speed) and has a certificate from Morgan Motorsports for being the highest HP stock car ever tested there
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2003
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Best of both worlds! How about the best of both worlds! I have several vettes pushing over 500rwhp that run 4500rpm stalls and can lock the TCC during WOT! Second if you like, but it really shines below the flash zone! 
Zero TCC SLIP at 1000 eng rpm w/4500 rpm stall and 3 YEAR WARRANTY! That equates to NO HIGH TEMPS and FUEL ECONOMY (until a Mustang comes by...) You can cruize in 3rd @ 30mph @ 1500 eng rpm w/perf. gears! Add programming and things get real fun! Go WOT, it releases the TCC, backshifts, and flashes hard
! And yes the warranty applies for those that want to turn it on in second during WOT (we have transmissions that can hold it...)
http://www.ls1tuning.com/iboard/index.php?showtopic=503
http://forums.atsdiesel.com/showthread.php?threadid=336
http://forums.atsdiesel.com/showthread.php?threadid=364
This converter can hold the power (700rwhp at 5800ft!)http://www.vettepieces.com/dyno/dyno_rich_02.html
(getting traction is another issue!)
Thomas
www.vettepieces.com
Zero TCC SLIP at 1000 eng rpm w/4500 rpm stall and 3 YEAR WARRANTY! That equates to NO HIGH TEMPS and FUEL ECONOMY (until a Mustang comes by...) You can cruize in 3rd @ 30mph @ 1500 eng rpm w/perf. gears! Add programming and things get real fun! Go WOT, it releases the TCC, backshifts, and flashes hard
! And yes the warranty applies for those that want to turn it on in second during WOT (we have transmissions that can hold it...)http://www.ls1tuning.com/iboard/index.php?showtopic=503
http://forums.atsdiesel.com/showthread.php?threadid=336
http://forums.atsdiesel.com/showthread.php?threadid=364
This converter can hold the power (700rwhp at 5800ft!)http://www.vettepieces.com/dyno/dyno_rich_02.html
(getting traction is another issue!)
Thomas
www.vettepieces.com
TECH Senior Member
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From: Troy, AL
I don't know much about Midwest converters except that I haven't really seen any great results out of them. Maybe there just aren't many people running them. Personnally, I like to go with what's proven to work. Yank and TCI converters are most certainly proven to work and work well.
Highway racing isn't just about what kind of peak HP numbers can be pulled on the dyno. What's more important is the average of the HP you're putting to the ground over the ENTIRE range of RPMs that you're using. Narrow that range down to your best power range and you're going to go faster. Let's consider two scenarios...
1. 420 RWHP running an unlocked stock converter that loses only 5 RWHP when unlocked.
6000=420 RWHP
5000=375 RWHP
4000=275 RWHP
3500=235 RWHP
2. Same car, same engine, but the converter is a 3600 stall that losses 25 RWHP when unlocked.
So #1 has a 20 RWHP advantage. That should make it a better highway racer right? Wrong, not even close. The shift extension on the stock converter is only about 3500 or less I'd guess. That puts you all the way beck to 235 RWHP whereas the 3600 converter has a shift extension of about 5000 which puts you at 355 RWHP after the additional 20 RWHP loss to inefficiency. That's 120 RWHP of whoopass in my book! This of course happens both on the 1-2 shift and on the 2-3 shift.
Point being, your peak numbers may be a little lower (or even alot lower with some converters) but the average power to the ground over the course of the race is going to be WAAAAAAAAY higher with the higher stalling converter.
Highway racing isn't just about what kind of peak HP numbers can be pulled on the dyno. What's more important is the average of the HP you're putting to the ground over the ENTIRE range of RPMs that you're using. Narrow that range down to your best power range and you're going to go faster. Let's consider two scenarios...
1. 420 RWHP running an unlocked stock converter that loses only 5 RWHP when unlocked.
6000=420 RWHP
5000=375 RWHP
4000=275 RWHP
3500=235 RWHP
2. Same car, same engine, but the converter is a 3600 stall that losses 25 RWHP when unlocked.
So #1 has a 20 RWHP advantage. That should make it a better highway racer right? Wrong, not even close. The shift extension on the stock converter is only about 3500 or less I'd guess. That puts you all the way beck to 235 RWHP whereas the 3600 converter has a shift extension of about 5000 which puts you at 355 RWHP after the additional 20 RWHP loss to inefficiency. That's 120 RWHP of whoopass in my book! This of course happens both on the 1-2 shift and on the 2-3 shift.
Point being, your peak numbers may be a little lower (or even alot lower with some converters) but the average power to the ground over the course of the race is going to be WAAAAAAAAY higher with the higher stalling converter.
On The Tree
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 169
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From: San Antonio, TX
i have done a lot of highway races with my m6....as of 5:30 pm I'll be picking up my car with an auto and pt4400 and I'll probably race some of the same cars with the auto to see how it compares....it should be interesting
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From: Troy, AL
Hey, keep us posted on the results both on the street and at the track. I've often been curious as to how the trap speed would differ going from an M6 to a TP4400 or similar converter. I think the trap speed would be within a half MPH, all else being equal. I know when I was running a TP4600 with an internally stock engine, there were NO M6 internally stock cars running even close to the 115 MPH trap speeds I was running at the time.
On The Tree
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: San Antonio, TX
Originally Posted by Colonel
Hey, keep us posted on the results both on the street and at the track. I've often been curious as to how the trap speed would differ going from an M6 to a TP4400 or similar converter. I think the trap speed would be within a half MPH, all else being equal. I know when I was running a TP4600 with an internally stock engine, there were NO M6 internally stock cars running even close to the 115 MPH trap speeds I was running at the time.
Should be hitting up the track friday or saturday for sure.
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From: Chattanooga,TN
I have a Vig. 3600 and my car feels slower than it did stock but my first time at the track with it I went from 8.5@84 w/2.03 60' to and 8.08@84 w/1.76 60' on street tires(untuned)... I was very happy! I was told that my car would only be good for racing only from a dig not from a roll is this true? I've got LS1edit but I really don't know how to use it yet I've had a buddy tune it for me a little. He deleted TM and raised the shift points by 1 mph in 1-2-3 @ WOT and raise the line pressure by 1%. What could I adjust at WOT? Is there anything else that I could do to help it not feel like a dog at part throttle at low speeds? Sorry for all the questions but I have a lot to learn.
