Issues after converter install...
05-23-2010, 10:02 PM
#1
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Issues after converter install... As the title states got a couple of problems after I installed my 4C a week ago. Ill start with my setup:
Car and mods in the sig. Transmission is a performabuilt lvl 1 w/1800-2000 stock style stall with zero issues so far. I got a mail order tune from a "well known" tuner on this site over a month ago for the converter. Also did the led mod that Frank from performabuilt coined on here. This mod has proven to be worthwhile. Wanted to get the tune for the stall before I installed it. Drove fine, lockup was a good, no issues.
Now after the converter install shifts are still fine and lockup is firm, but im get slippage once its locked. While the converter is locked if I accelerate some but not enough for the pcm to unlock the converter, the rpm's will rise by a couple of hundred. If I give it a little more gas, they'll raise a bit higher and I can feel a vibration or shutter. It will hold while maintaining a constant speed up a hill, I guess it just isn't holding hard enough or something.
Second issue is the damn trans going into limp mode, I guess. Done this twice over 150 miles of driving, happened the exact same way each time. Cruising in OD about 30mph, give it some gas, rpm's climb to 2000, give it some more gas, enough to downshift to 3rd and bam thats where it stays. No lockup, no first, only manually 2nd and 3rd. Pulled the code and got PO757. Now from what I have read PO751 and PO757 are supposed to be deleted when a large aftermarket converter is installed. Please correct me if im wrong.....
Sorry for the long post
Car and mods in the sig. Transmission is a performabuilt lvl 1 w/1800-2000 stock style stall with zero issues so far. I got a mail order tune from a "well known" tuner on this site over a month ago for the converter. Also did the led mod that Frank from performabuilt coined on here. This mod has proven to be worthwhile. Wanted to get the tune for the stall before I installed it. Drove fine, lockup was a good, no issues.
Now after the converter install shifts are still fine and lockup is firm, but im get slippage once its locked. While the converter is locked if I accelerate some but not enough for the pcm to unlock the converter, the rpm's will rise by a couple of hundred. If I give it a little more gas, they'll raise a bit higher and I can feel a vibration or shutter. It will hold while maintaining a constant speed up a hill, I guess it just isn't holding hard enough or something.
Second issue is the damn trans going into limp mode, I guess. Done this twice over 150 miles of driving, happened the exact same way each time. Cruising in OD about 30mph, give it some gas, rpm's climb to 2000, give it some more gas, enough to downshift to 3rd and bam thats where it stays. No lockup, no first, only manually 2nd and 3rd. Pulled the code and got PO757. Now from what I have read PO751 and PO757 are supposed to be deleted when a large aftermarket converter is installed. Please correct me if im wrong.....
Sorry for the long post
05-24-2010, 08:57 AM
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The shutter only occurs when it slips at lockup the way I described. Shouldn't be doing that either. Im leaning towards the tune being off considering its went into limp mode twice since the install. Well I hope its the tune, otherwise ill be sending the converter back.
05-24-2010, 10:12 AM
#4
The tune is off. Been fighting this battle with the TCI 3500 that's in my car now, learned a lot on HPTuners forums.
Got the pressures in the trans beefed up and the lockup speeds adjusted, and that'll hold for now. The Yank SS3600 coming in the mail as of today will fix it for good.
Got the pressures in the trans beefed up and the lockup speeds adjusted, and that'll hold for now. The Yank SS3600 coming in the mail as of today will fix it for good.
05-24-2010, 12:22 PM
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The tune is off. Been fighting this battle with the TCI 3500 that's in my car now, learned a lot on HPTuners forums.
Got the pressures in the trans beefed up and the lockup speeds adjusted, and that'll hold for now. The Yank SS3600 coming in the mail as of today will fix it for good.
Got the pressures in the trans beefed up and the lockup speeds adjusted, and that'll hold for now. The Yank SS3600 coming in the mail as of today will fix it for good.
Have a better tuner tune it properly.
Mifire tables, P0757, P0751, Set TCC duty cycle to 98 max 98 min.
Get rid of 3rd lock up and set 4th lock up to no lower than 48 mph.
Most of this is in Performabuilts sticky here.
I'd get rid of PWM too (I think your trans has that done though).
When you're done with that watch line pressure with a mechanical gauge.
My 3C locks up more firm than 4th.
Mifire tables, P0757, P0751, Set TCC duty cycle to 98 max 98 min.
Get rid of 3rd lock up and set 4th lock up to no lower than 48 mph.
Most of this is in Performabuilts sticky here.
I'd get rid of PWM too (I think your trans has that done though).
When you're done with that watch line pressure with a mechanical gauge.
My 3C locks up more firm than 4th.
05-24-2010, 02:38 PM
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It sounds like you've got a problem somewhere. You did put an o-ring on the input shaft right?
I bet you're not willing mention who screwed your tune up are you?
I have HP Tuners for 2002 only and need something small done to a 2001 computer through a mail order tune. I'd like to avoid this one.
I bet you're not willing mention who screwed your tune up are you?
I have HP Tuners for 2002 only and need something small done to a 2001 computer through a mail order tune. I'd like to avoid this one.
Didn't mess with the o-ring. When I talked to Frank he mentioned if I damaged the o-ring during installation that could cause my converter slip. Sucks for me if thats the problem.
05-24-2010, 03:12 PM
#7
And we likley fixed it for free lol.
Tuned by Frost. Converter will lock at 36 or 37 mph, and the obvious codes were not deleted.
Didn't mess with the o-ring. When I talked to Frank he mentioned if I damaged the o-ring during installation that could cause my converter slip. Sucks for me if thats the problem.
Didn't mess with the o-ring. When I talked to Frank he mentioned if I damaged the o-ring during installation that could cause my converter slip. Sucks for me if thats the problem.
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05-24-2010, 05:25 PM
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I would say look at all things that have changed. Converter, converter oring and tune, I will agree 37mph lockup is way to low. But I will also note that you should not continue to drive it while you solve this because it could result in either converter or transmission damage .
05-25-2010, 12:03 AM
#9
Tuned by Frost. Converter will lock at 36 or 37 mph, and the obvious codes were not deleted.
Didn't mess with the o-ring. When I talked to Frank he mentioned if I damaged the o-ring during installation that could cause my converter slip. Sucks for me if thats the problem.
Didn't mess with the o-ring. When I talked to Frank he mentioned if I damaged the o-ring during installation that could cause my converter slip. Sucks for me if thats the problem.
You sent me a PM but no name, so I can't pull your file, but unless you have the stock cam (and really even then) the lockup should be higher unless you have a steeper than OEM rear end gear.
As for the 751 and 756 are solenoid codes. I have tuned around 500 stalled cars. The ones that set this code have solenoids with coils that have enough of a significant difference from OEM resistance to set this code. I have proven this with a meter three times and on cars a little over a half dozen times. Frank, I don't know what brand noid you guys use, but I have replaced them in several cars that have had your trans and the codes go away. I can drag two or three users here that can attest to this, as they are posters here and replaced the noids and the codes stopped. I have had complete trans from one other vendor that have set the codes on each of their trans until they were replaced. I don't like just disabling a valid diagnostic code, and those are valid. The other side of the coin is, maybe they are fine and disabling the codes are fine, but they must not fit into the window of the OEM programming tests. I can and will disable them if the owner wants it, but I always advise them of the nature of the issue. With the TCC DC increased, there should not be any shudder. I can run the minimum value to max DC to allow you to fully rule out the calibration. The PB trans that are their highest HP rated trans have proven to be solid in some heavy and powerful cars and swaps that I have tuned. In particular, one swapped truck that was over 4K lbs and would have made in the 700's+ rwhp (383 H/C 83mm T6 hybrid turbo, 16psi).
When those codes set, the net result is the trans holding a gear. There is no limp mode on an IAC car.
I just got back form vacation late this afternoon and have about 300 emails left to answer. If you sent me an email though, you should have gotten the auto reply that had my schedule and listed my return date. Updates are free for 90 days, all you have to do is cover shipping. I would be happy to get you fixed up however you'd like.
Last edited by Frost; 05-25-2010 at 01:31 AM. Reason: spelling
05-25-2010, 12:08 AM
#10
That's kind of a one-sided accusation... If the customer doesn't list what they have, they don't get tuned for it. (the form says leave blank for STOCK). I have had two customer with built trans in the past that list their stall and forget to mention that they didn't have an OEM trans.
Thanks for making an assumption and pointing at me though.
05-25-2010, 12:45 AM
#11
This bothered me enough to get me to my office to look for the file and pull the detail sheet.
The car has 3.73 gears and a stock cam. Third gear lockup is disabled. If the car had 3.23s it would be locking up from 37-42 MPH (stock cam). It would be the same as lockup at 44-50 MPH with a 2.73 geared car. All trans pressure settings and FMC settings are stock. TCC min DC is bumped from stock but unless it HAS to be "on/off", I run a lower minimum DC to keep lockup from being harsh to the driver. It seems like the PB trans (and several other built units that I gave had in front of me) have no PWM, the converter is on or off and nothing done with TCC DC tables had any impact. I have specific notes to this effect in the files.
At any rate the bottom line is this, you can send it back for an update or you are welcome to send it back for me to reflash to the way I received it and I will refund your money.
The car has 3.73 gears and a stock cam. Third gear lockup is disabled. If the car had 3.23s it would be locking up from 37-42 MPH (stock cam). It would be the same as lockup at 44-50 MPH with a 2.73 geared car. All trans pressure settings and FMC settings are stock. TCC min DC is bumped from stock but unless it HAS to be "on/off", I run a lower minimum DC to keep lockup from being harsh to the driver. It seems like the PB trans (and several other built units that I gave had in front of me) have no PWM, the converter is on or off and nothing done with TCC DC tables had any impact. I have specific notes to this effect in the files.
At any rate the bottom line is this, you can send it back for an update or you are welcome to send it back for me to reflash to the way I received it and I will refund your money.
05-25-2010, 08:29 AM
#13
Well you've been a dick to me in other posts, do you think being a dick is going to get you more business? Everyone in the forum can see this.
751 and 757 are shift solenoid performance codes, seems like you'd notice the car not shifting right if the solenoids were bad. The problem with leaving them alone is that the computer misinterprets converter slippiing with trans slipping and puts it in limp mode. With a loose enough converter and first time converter driver this may not be so obvious so they run it in limp mode until it fails.
753 and 758 are solenoid electrical codes, these are left alone so if the solenoid goes bad electrically it sets the light.
751 and 757 are shift solenoid performance codes, seems like you'd notice the car not shifting right if the solenoids were bad. The problem with leaving them alone is that the computer misinterprets converter slippiing with trans slipping and puts it in limp mode. With a loose enough converter and first time converter driver this may not be so obvious so they run it in limp mode until it fails.
753 and 758 are solenoid electrical codes, these are left alone so if the solenoid goes bad electrically it sets the light.
I have no idea who you are, but if you make assumptions or post something that is false, I am going to correct it. I'm sorry if you don't like that. 751 and 757 are there to protect the trans, not to arbitrarily annoy people with it's presence.
Again, there IS NO LIMP MODE ON AN IAC CAR. "Limp mode" is what happens when a drive by wire setup 'thinks' the throttle blade has run away and it takes steps to limit the blade.
I have told the OP if he wants to return the PCM I will be happy to make an update or refund him.
05-25-2010, 08:40 AM
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05-25-2010, 09:10 AM
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TCC duty must be bumped up, but you may also have
to raise the baseline pressure at low cruise. My old TCI
would slip up grades at 100% TCC duty, because 100%
of the "0%" commanded line was just not enough. At
the time I had no option but to bump down the lowest-
torque Force Motor columns' current. Now many vehicles
have TCC-locked line offsets you can tough instead.
There are trans fault modes which will inhibit TCC lock,
and I'm sure there are other behaviors I haven't run
into on my setup. If you have solenoid codes, it's not
too farfetched to see things that act like the solenoids
aren't working (either for real problems, or for lack of
trying once set).
to raise the baseline pressure at low cruise. My old TCI
would slip up grades at 100% TCC duty, because 100%
of the "0%" commanded line was just not enough. At
the time I had no option but to bump down the lowest-
torque Force Motor columns' current. Now many vehicles
have TCC-locked line offsets you can tough instead.
There are trans fault modes which will inhibit TCC lock,
and I'm sure there are other behaviors I haven't run
into on my setup. If you have solenoid codes, it's not
too farfetched to see things that act like the solenoids
aren't working (either for real problems, or for lack of
trying once set).
05-25-2010, 09:57 AM
#17
Whats it called?
You're using common terminology to "outsmart" me.
Everyone calls it limp mode, or limp home mode.
It makes sense. When it detects a problem it goes to max line to try to avoid slipping and it stays in one gear so it'll move.
You, apparently, are still trying to figure out how to trans tune.
Throw in something like solenoid electrical resistance to throw people off. Thats total BS. Electrical resistance problems are diagnosed through DTC's 0753, 0758 shift solenoid circuit electrical.
0751 and 0757 are mechanical operation malfunction codes.
You're using common terminology to "outsmart" me.
Everyone calls it limp mode, or limp home mode.
It makes sense. When it detects a problem it goes to max line to try to avoid slipping and it stays in one gear so it'll move.
You, apparently, are still trying to figure out how to trans tune.
Throw in something like solenoid electrical resistance to throw people off. Thats total BS. Electrical resistance problems are diagnosed through DTC's 0753, 0758 shift solenoid circuit electrical.
0751 and 0757 are mechanical operation malfunction codes.
If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that the failure mode that results in max line pressure is P0101-P0103 and it's only set enabled OEM on 98 F-bodies. 99-02's have it disabled from the factory... I'm sure it was just a typo on your part above though.
I'm not trying to figure out how to tune a trans, I'm trying to figure out why you troll this thread. Is the irony lost that you accuse me of not knowing what I'm doing while you make false statements about 'limp mode' and the above max line pressure DTCs? It's not called limp mode, it's just a fault condition that is holding a gear. Limp mode (Reduced Engine Power Mode) limits throttle blade opening; this does not.
I know the GM diag procedure for troubleshooting the codes and that they do not include electrical properties, and often point to issues other than the noids themselves. I also know first hand, that the replacements that were used (GM parts) had a different DC resistance than the ones removed. I also watched the codes vanish and never return when the noids were replaced. This is not an idea or an opinion.
I'm done feeding the troll though. The original poster can feel free to get up with me and discuss any changes that he'd like, as I have said previously more than once now.
05-25-2010, 10:01 AM
#18
All I know is that prior to the converterr swap from a stock range to a high stall there was no issue. No codes and no converter slip. I also know that PO757 after a high stall installation is a common but intermittant issue with the cars and have seen it reguarless of who did the trans, In fact my self and every trans vendor and some tuners have many many time answered this question in many many post here.
Its however random some cars never have the issue other have it random and rare and still other it happened imediatley. The solenoids we use are OEM which IMO are the best. But solenoids are not what causes it its simple the PCM comands third gear and then the PCM does not see the apropriate rpm drop for that gears and assumes that the shift did not take place since the engine rpm remains to high due to the stall.
Note the 4l60e has no feedback for the solenid mechanical other that comparing speed to engine RPM since it has no presure sensor for this and no input speed sensor at least not till after 2007 when and iss was added. But this is why PO757 is set. (some cars PO756 MODEL DEPENDANT) This results in whatever you wanna call it. "limp mode" "failsafe" in any case all PCM control of the trans is ended and it defaults to a condition as if the trans was unpluged from the car max line and 2nd and 3r gears manual shift only and no first. With the exception of when the TRANSGO kit is used then the trans will bind or act like has a transbrake in manual low 1.
I am not here to bicker/bash or create any drama, My sole goal is to help my customer even though his trans is two years old to solve and issue, And again I follow the normal logic when ever you have and issue. what was the last things changed about the car when the issue started. In this case its the converter went from stock range to a very high stall comparitivley.Before this all was perfect for a long time with no issues.
Its however random some cars never have the issue other have it random and rare and still other it happened imediatley. The solenoids we use are OEM which IMO are the best. But solenoids are not what causes it its simple the PCM comands third gear and then the PCM does not see the apropriate rpm drop for that gears and assumes that the shift did not take place since the engine rpm remains to high due to the stall.
Note the 4l60e has no feedback for the solenid mechanical other that comparing speed to engine RPM since it has no presure sensor for this and no input speed sensor at least not till after 2007 when and iss was added. But this is why PO757 is set. (some cars PO756 MODEL DEPENDANT) This results in whatever you wanna call it. "limp mode" "failsafe" in any case all PCM control of the trans is ended and it defaults to a condition as if the trans was unpluged from the car max line and 2nd and 3r gears manual shift only and no first. With the exception of when the TRANSGO kit is used then the trans will bind or act like has a transbrake in manual low 1.
I am not here to bicker/bash or create any drama, My sole goal is to help my customer even though his trans is two years old to solve and issue, And again I follow the normal logic when ever you have and issue. what was the last things changed about the car when the issue started. In this case its the converter went from stock range to a very high stall comparitivley.Before this all was perfect for a long time with no issues.
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05-25-2010, 11:33 AM
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You sent me a PM but no name, so I can't pull your file, but unless you have the stock cam (and really even then) the lockup should be higher unless you have a steeper than OEM rear end gear.
As for the 751 and 756 are solenoid codes. I have tuned around 500 stalled cars. The ones that set this code have solenoids with coils that have enough of a significant difference from OEM resistance to set this code. I have proven this with a meter three times and on cars a little over a half dozen times. Frank, I don't know what brand noid you guys use, but I have replaced them in several cars that have had your trans and the codes go away. I can drag two or three users here that can attest to this, as they are posters here and replaced the noids and the codes stopped. I have had complete trans from one other vendor that have set the codes on each of their trans until they were replaced. I don't like just disabling a valid diagnostic code, and those are valid. The other side of the coin is, maybe they are fine and disabling the codes are fine, but they must not fit into the window of the OEM programming tests. I can and will disable them if the owner wants it, but I always advise them of the nature of the issue. With the TCC DC increased, there should not be any shudder. I can run the minimum value to max DC to allow you to fully rule out the calibration. The PB trans that are their highest HP rated trans have proven to be solid in some heavy and powerful cars and swaps that I have tuned. In particular, one swapped truck that was over 4K lbs and would have made in the 700's+ rwhp (383 H/C 83mm T6 hybrid turbo, 16psi).
When those codes set, the net result is the trans holding a gear. There is no limp mode on an IAC car.
I just got back form vacation late this afternoon and have about 300 emails left to answer. If you sent me an email though, you should have gotten the auto reply that had my schedule and listed my return date. Updates are free for 90 days, all you have to do is cover shipping. I would be happy to get you fixed up however you'd like.
As for the 751 and 756 are solenoid codes. I have tuned around 500 stalled cars. The ones that set this code have solenoids with coils that have enough of a significant difference from OEM resistance to set this code. I have proven this with a meter three times and on cars a little over a half dozen times. Frank, I don't know what brand noid you guys use, but I have replaced them in several cars that have had your trans and the codes go away. I can drag two or three users here that can attest to this, as they are posters here and replaced the noids and the codes stopped. I have had complete trans from one other vendor that have set the codes on each of their trans until they were replaced. I don't like just disabling a valid diagnostic code, and those are valid. The other side of the coin is, maybe they are fine and disabling the codes are fine, but they must not fit into the window of the OEM programming tests. I can and will disable them if the owner wants it, but I always advise them of the nature of the issue. With the TCC DC increased, there should not be any shudder. I can run the minimum value to max DC to allow you to fully rule out the calibration. The PB trans that are their highest HP rated trans have proven to be solid in some heavy and powerful cars and swaps that I have tuned. In particular, one swapped truck that was over 4K lbs and would have made in the 700's+ rwhp (383 H/C 83mm T6 hybrid turbo, 16psi).
When those codes set, the net result is the trans holding a gear. There is no limp mode on an IAC car.
I just got back form vacation late this afternoon and have about 300 emails left to answer. If you sent me an email though, you should have gotten the auto reply that had my schedule and listed my return date. Updates are free for 90 days, all you have to do is cover shipping. I would be happy to get you fixed up however you'd like.
The issue with the converter slipping at lockup I have said may or may not be tune. Im not thowing the blame at you. I've talked to a two other tuners on this site and both said they do not always disable P0751 and P0757. I obviously need them disabled my since my car is going into limp mode almost regularly now.
When there is code that needs to be disabled I would call that a tune issue.
The only two mechanical issues this could be is the o-ring got damaged upon installation, or issues with the converter itself.
Thanks for your "input" tho, you really helped...
05-25-2010, 11:44 AM
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I am not here to bicker/bash or create any drama, My sole goal is to help my customer even though his trans is two years old to solve and issue, And again I follow the normal logic when ever you have and issue. what was the last things changed about the car when the issue started. In this case its the converter went from stock range to a very high stall comparitivley.Before this all was perfect for a long time with no issues.
Thanks again for your help