Midwest 3200/2.0 measures 30hp+ loss unlocked -- opinions on Vig multi-discs ?
04-20-2004, 11:06 PM
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SOLVED Midwest 3200/2.0 measures 30hp+ loss unlocked -- opinions on Vig multi-discs ? Update- I am now sure this is due to my stall being set up for
lower hp/tq. Getting restalled and will redyno & report back.
I was showing as much 10% slippage at top of 2nd gear, based
on my scanner logs (vs. pure gear calculator)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Did my first and only dyno on my '01 z28 TR224 cam only car.
(see post in dyno archives.)
Anyway, very dissatisfied with the loss when running unlocked. I did
all my tuning locked and got almost 380hp through cats... which I think
is just fine.
I've also had an issue with short shifting, mostly testing the 1-2 on the street. I've had to trick the computer by setting the shift rpm about 300rpm high to get it where it should be ~6400. There was one other guy on the board with a midwest that was shifting at 6000 when he was commanding 6400 with edit.... sounds exactly like mine... no idea how to explain how the physical converter is affecting way the computer tells the trans when to shift... but who knows with a little more slip/inefficiency is the computer confused ?
Now, unfortunatley I only have 1 unlocked run & the operator only recorded
from 4400rpm. But with that data, the loss starts out basically at 0 and hits almost 35hp before dropping off a hair. When the converter locks, the rpms hunker down pretty big, but that doens't mean much under the stall speed in the 2500 area I guess. Here's the graph of final tuned locked vs. unlocked:
http://www.vettecaliper.com/ls1/scan.jpg
The rpm pickup was flaky at the dyno, so there are some missing points.
Here's the table data :
rpm locked hp/tq unlocked hp/tq hp diff
4400 295/352 291/347 -4
4600 313/358 298/340 -15
4800 332/364 303/332 -29
5000 346/363 311/327 -35
5200 355/359 320/325 -35
5600 371/348 336/315 -35
5900 378/337 347/309 -31
One other oddity is that my AF leaned out 0.5AF when running unlocked vs. locked.... just to add to the confusion.
Thinking seriously of and researching 3/5 disc multi-disc Vig. There's on guy that posts a lot about his multi-disc 4000. Says feels reasonably tight, which I like. I don't mind giving up a little off the line to a) hookup and b) pick up efficiency. Colonel has reported how even more than most converters, the mulit-discs 'drag' and they are never totally unlocked... which is fine with me if they still give decent track performance and overall are wasting less hp. Now, you also see comments that PI themselves says they don't intend the multi-disc for the ls1s and that it is mostly for those that want to lock up the converter at the top of the track... which think more the opposite-- who cares about bothering to lock up if I only give up 5 or so hp to stay unlocked. (that's one what one report shows).
I also had a long conversation with another guy from the board that has a 3200/2.0 Midwest on a stock internal car... He actually locks at the top of second and all of third at the track... picks up 2 tenths and as much as 5mph.... To me, sounds like it works, but also points to an inefficient converter.
All comments/suggestions welcome.
lower hp/tq. Getting restalled and will redyno & report back.
I was showing as much 10% slippage at top of 2nd gear, based
on my scanner logs (vs. pure gear calculator)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Did my first and only dyno on my '01 z28 TR224 cam only car.
(see post in dyno archives.)
Anyway, very dissatisfied with the loss when running unlocked. I did
all my tuning locked and got almost 380hp through cats... which I think
is just fine.
I've also had an issue with short shifting, mostly testing the 1-2 on the street. I've had to trick the computer by setting the shift rpm about 300rpm high to get it where it should be ~6400. There was one other guy on the board with a midwest that was shifting at 6000 when he was commanding 6400 with edit.... sounds exactly like mine... no idea how to explain how the physical converter is affecting way the computer tells the trans when to shift... but who knows with a little more slip/inefficiency is the computer confused ?
Now, unfortunatley I only have 1 unlocked run & the operator only recorded
from 4400rpm. But with that data, the loss starts out basically at 0 and hits almost 35hp before dropping off a hair. When the converter locks, the rpms hunker down pretty big, but that doens't mean much under the stall speed in the 2500 area I guess. Here's the graph of final tuned locked vs. unlocked:
http://www.vettecaliper.com/ls1/scan.jpg
The rpm pickup was flaky at the dyno, so there are some missing points.
Here's the table data :
rpm locked hp/tq unlocked hp/tq hp diff
4400 295/352 291/347 -4
4600 313/358 298/340 -15
4800 332/364 303/332 -29
5000 346/363 311/327 -35
5200 355/359 320/325 -35
5600 371/348 336/315 -35
5900 378/337 347/309 -31
One other oddity is that my AF leaned out 0.5AF when running unlocked vs. locked.... just to add to the confusion.
Thinking seriously of and researching 3/5 disc multi-disc Vig. There's on guy that posts a lot about his multi-disc 4000. Says feels reasonably tight, which I like. I don't mind giving up a little off the line to a) hookup and b) pick up efficiency. Colonel has reported how even more than most converters, the mulit-discs 'drag' and they are never totally unlocked... which is fine with me if they still give decent track performance and overall are wasting less hp. Now, you also see comments that PI themselves says they don't intend the multi-disc for the ls1s and that it is mostly for those that want to lock up the converter at the top of the track... which think more the opposite-- who cares about bothering to lock up if I only give up 5 or so hp to stay unlocked. (that's one what one report shows).
I also had a long conversation with another guy from the board that has a 3200/2.0 Midwest on a stock internal car... He actually locks at the top of second and all of third at the track... picks up 2 tenths and as much as 5mph.... To me, sounds like it works, but also points to an inefficient converter.
All comments/suggestions welcome.
Last edited by Sunset01; 04-21-2004 at 01:12 PM. Reason: change title to include answer to issue and update post
04-21-2004, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunset01
Did my first and only dyno on my '01 z28 TR224 cam only car.
(see post in dyno archives.)
Anyway, very dissatisfied with the loss when running unlocked. I did
all my tuning locked and got almost 380hp through cats... which I think
is just fine.
I've also had an issue with short shifting, mostly testing the 1-2 on the street. I've had to trick the computer by setting the shift rpm about 300rpm high to get it where it should be ~6400. There was one other guy on the board with a midwest that was shifting at 6000 when he was commanding 6400 with edit.... sounds exactly like mine... no idea how to explain how the physical converter is affecting way the computer tells the trans when to shift... but who knows with a little more slip/inefficiency is the computer confused ?
Now, unfortunatley I only have 1 unlocked run & the operator only recorded
from 4400rpm. But with that data, the loss starts out basically at 0 and hits almost 35hp before dropping off a hair. When the converter locks, the rpms hunker down pretty big, but that doens't mean much under the stall speed in the 2500 area I guess. Here's the graph of final tuned locked vs. unlocked:
http://www.vettecaliper.com/ls1/scan.jpg
The rpm pickup was flaky at the dyno, so there are some missing points.
Here's the table data :
rpm locked hp/tq unlocked hp/tq hp diff
4400 295/352 291/347 -4
4600 313/358 298/340 -15
4800 332/364 303/332 -29
5000 346/363 311/327 -35
5200 355/359 320/325 -35
5600 371/348 336/315 -35
5900 378/337 347/309 -31
One other oddity is that my AF leaned out 0.5AF when running unlocked vs. locked.... just to add to the confusion.
Thinking seriously of and researching 3/5 disc multi-disc Vig. There's on guy that posts a lot about his multi-disc 4000. Says feels reasonably tight, which I like. I don't mind giving up a little off the line to a) hookup and b) pick up efficiency. Colonel has reported how even more than most converters, the mulit-discs 'drag' and they are never totally unlocked... which is fine with me if they still give decent track performance and overall are wasting less hp. Now, you also see comments that PI themselves says they don't intend the multi-disc for the ls1s and that it is mostly for those that want to lock up the converter at the top of the track... which think more the opposite-- who cares about bothering to lock up if I only give up 5 or so hp to stay unlocked. (that's one what one report shows).
I also had a long conversation with another guy from the board that has a 3200/2.0 Midwest on a stock internal car... He actually locks at the top of second and all of third at the track... picks up 2 tenths and as much as 5mph.... To me, sounds like it works, but also points to an inefficient converter.
All comments/suggestions welcome.
(see post in dyno archives.)
Anyway, very dissatisfied with the loss when running unlocked. I did
all my tuning locked and got almost 380hp through cats... which I think
is just fine.
I've also had an issue with short shifting, mostly testing the 1-2 on the street. I've had to trick the computer by setting the shift rpm about 300rpm high to get it where it should be ~6400. There was one other guy on the board with a midwest that was shifting at 6000 when he was commanding 6400 with edit.... sounds exactly like mine... no idea how to explain how the physical converter is affecting way the computer tells the trans when to shift... but who knows with a little more slip/inefficiency is the computer confused ?
Now, unfortunatley I only have 1 unlocked run & the operator only recorded
from 4400rpm. But with that data, the loss starts out basically at 0 and hits almost 35hp before dropping off a hair. When the converter locks, the rpms hunker down pretty big, but that doens't mean much under the stall speed in the 2500 area I guess. Here's the graph of final tuned locked vs. unlocked:
http://www.vettecaliper.com/ls1/scan.jpg
The rpm pickup was flaky at the dyno, so there are some missing points.
Here's the table data :
rpm locked hp/tq unlocked hp/tq hp diff
4400 295/352 291/347 -4
4600 313/358 298/340 -15
4800 332/364 303/332 -29
5000 346/363 311/327 -35
5200 355/359 320/325 -35
5600 371/348 336/315 -35
5900 378/337 347/309 -31
One other oddity is that my AF leaned out 0.5AF when running unlocked vs. locked.... just to add to the confusion.
Thinking seriously of and researching 3/5 disc multi-disc Vig. There's on guy that posts a lot about his multi-disc 4000. Says feels reasonably tight, which I like. I don't mind giving up a little off the line to a) hookup and b) pick up efficiency. Colonel has reported how even more than most converters, the mulit-discs 'drag' and they are never totally unlocked... which is fine with me if they still give decent track performance and overall are wasting less hp. Now, you also see comments that PI themselves says they don't intend the multi-disc for the ls1s and that it is mostly for those that want to lock up the converter at the top of the track... which think more the opposite-- who cares about bothering to lock up if I only give up 5 or so hp to stay unlocked. (that's one what one report shows).
I also had a long conversation with another guy from the board that has a 3200/2.0 Midwest on a stock internal car... He actually locks at the top of second and all of third at the track... picks up 2 tenths and as much as 5mph.... To me, sounds like it works, but also points to an inefficient converter.
All comments/suggestions welcome.
im running a 3200 2.0 steel stator midwest...
i put down the number in sig 397/404 unlocked...but i didnt get a locked run in...i was a little dissapointed in the power since i didnt figure a 3200 would loose that much power. maybe my motor is making more power than i thought...
maybe some other midwest owners will chime in with locked/unlocked numbers...
04-21-2004, 09:37 AM
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I have a call into Midwest, but I think I may be onto the issue.
When I had the converter made, I planned on bolt-ons only. Then I added the TR224 to the mix. John at HPA says that I may be 'blowing through' the conveter. One thing I'm trying to analyze is the typical mph I run unlocked compared to locked or what it should be via a gear calculator... I think I see too much there, i.e toward 10%, which jibes with my dynojet loss....
Dean
When I had the converter made, I planned on bolt-ons only. Then I added the TR224 to the mix. John at HPA says that I may be 'blowing through' the conveter. One thing I'm trying to analyze is the typical mph I run unlocked compared to locked or what it should be via a gear calculator... I think I see too much there, i.e toward 10%, which jibes with my dynojet loss....
Dean
04-21-2004, 07:20 PM
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I have a VIG 3600 multidisc and lost only 15rwhp locked vs. unlocked. #s were 398unlocked and 413locked. I was mphing high 118 untuned with a peg leg rear end, nuff said!
04-21-2004, 08:10 PM
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The Midwest is going to get retuned/rebuilt for my higher HP. I fully expect to see the more typical 20hp loss when back in. I will dyno again and report back.
I was also told that the multidisc units have kind of a clunky lockup feel.
I was also told that the multidisc units have kind of a clunky lockup feel.
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04-21-2004, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunset01
I have a call into Midwest, but I think I may be onto the issue.
When I had the converter made, I planned on bolt-ons only. Then I added the TR224 to the mix. John at HPA says that I may be 'blowing through' the conveter. One thing I'm trying to analyze is the typical mph I run unlocked compared to locked or what it should be via a gear calculator... I think I see too much there, i.e toward 10%, which jibes with my dynojet loss....
Dean
When I had the converter made, I planned on bolt-ons only. Then I added the TR224 to the mix. John at HPA says that I may be 'blowing through' the conveter. One thing I'm trying to analyze is the typical mph I run unlocked compared to locked or what it should be via a gear calculator... I think I see too much there, i.e toward 10%, which jibes with my dynojet loss....
Dean
i don't think either of our cars are making enough power to be able to do what he is mentioning unless the quality of the actual converter is sub-par. i think a "regular" midwest converter is rated to be good to 500 crank hp, and then over that you are told to pay for the upgraded steel stator. i will end up spraying the car again, so i have the upgraded steel stator model and i might be loosing lots of power through it.
i dont think a 30 hp loss is acceptable for a 3200 stall 2.0 converter...i figure it should be around 10-15...and 20 max loss.
sunset01 unless you specifically told them you were only going to do boltons AND they gave you a price LOWER than a regular midwest converter...i think that response is comical...
if their "normal" converter is rated to 500 hp, then your cam only car should not cause any "blow through"
and btw...good locked numbers sunset...378 in an a4 is nice with the tr224
04-21-2004, 08:24 PM
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I did tell them at the time, basically full bolt ons... I think John at HPA related that to 330hp. No steel stator/stator quality has more to due with physical parts durability, not how the converter is going to operate.
I don't pretend to fully understand this stuff. But I do know that the same converter is going to act very differently with different hp.. I didn't expect 30-40hp to make this much difference, but it may have been leaning on the wrong side of even my lower hp estimate. The 'blow through' is not due to physically inferior parts- Dennis at Midwest said they use 12 different stators and that each one can represent 30-40 hp range (or more properly ft-lb torque). I believe that my exact converter on a stock to light bolt on car would show more like the 20hp loss.
I don't pretend to fully understand this stuff. But I do know that the same converter is going to act very differently with different hp.. I didn't expect 30-40hp to make this much difference, but it may have been leaning on the wrong side of even my lower hp estimate. The 'blow through' is not due to physically inferior parts- Dennis at Midwest said they use 12 different stators and that each one can represent 30-40 hp range (or more properly ft-lb torque). I believe that my exact converter on a stock to light bolt on car would show more like the 20hp loss.
04-21-2004, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunset01
I did tell them at the time, basically full bolt ons... I think John at HPA related that to 330hp. No steel stator/stator quality has more to due with physical parts durability, not how the converter is going to operate.
I don't pretend to fully understand this stuff. But I do know that the same converter is going to act very differently with different hp.. I didn't expect 30-40hp to make this much difference, but it may have been leaning on the wrong side of even my lower hp estimate. The 'blow through' is not due to physically inferior parts- Dennis at Midwest said they use 12 different stators and that each one can represent 30-40 hp range (or more properly ft-lb torque). I believe that my exact converter on a stock to light bolt on car would show more like the 20hp loss.
I don't pretend to fully understand this stuff. But I do know that the same converter is going to act very differently with different hp.. I didn't expect 30-40hp to make this much difference, but it may have been leaning on the wrong side of even my lower hp estimate. The 'blow through' is not due to physically inferior parts- Dennis at Midwest said they use 12 different stators and that each one can represent 30-40 hp range (or more properly ft-lb torque). I believe that my exact converter on a stock to light bolt on car would show more like the 20hp loss.
From HPA's site...
This converter is good for engines producing up to 500hp.We are offering theses converters at this introductory price to get our selves established in the converter market. We offer a two-year warrantee on all of our converters.We are confident that our product will meet your needs....
If you paid the full retail price you should have gotten..
a 3200 stall speed converter that is able to to support 500hp without 30 hp of "blow through"
as with many things it sounds like you maybe got less than what was "advertised"
ill save my judgement until after i get some locked numbers and see how much it is loosing...
im save my
04-21-2004, 08:58 PM
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And I will get my free restall or whatever they are doing. So you don't see the side of it that the converter needs to be tuned to the application's torque. I could ask them to jump 3 notches up on their impellers & I wouldn't "blow through" by adding heads to my application, but as is, the converter would be real tight and would stall at like 2500rpm or something. Do you see what I mean? And I think if I said my application was the full 500hp + , they would have build the converter that way...
04-21-2004, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunset01
And I will get my free restall or whatever they are doing. So you don't see the side of it that the converter needs to be tuned to the application's torque. I could ask them to jump 3 notches up on their impellers & I wouldn't "blow through" by adding heads to my application, but as is, the converter would be real tight and would stall at like 2500rpm or something. Do you see what I mean? And I think if I said my application was the full 500hp + , they would have build the converter that way...
04-21-2004, 10:11 PM
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That's not what they would say in the sense that they will make a 3200/2.0 different for a bone stock car and for the full stroked/heads/cam setup. Who did you order your Midwest from? Didn't they ask your particulars/power level? So there isn't one 3200/2.0 that they sell off the shelf and will run right for all varied apps under 500hp. Each converter is made custom. I take the 500hp to mean that the converter will physically handle 500hp.
04-21-2004, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunset01
That's not what they would say in the sense that they will make a 3200/2.0 different for a bone stock car and for the full stroked/heads/cam setup. Who did you order your Midwest from? Didn't they ask your particulars/power level? So there isn't one 3200/2.0 that they sell off the shelf and will run right for all varied apps under 500hp. Each converter is made custom. I take the 500hp to mean that the converter will physically handle 500hp.
yank, vig, etc. sell their converters and it is up to the car owner to select which converter is best based on their setup...
midwest should be the same way in that they give a rated power level (up to 500 hp) a stall speed (3200 in our case) and a str (2.0)...given this information you select which stall and str you want...
the converter in your transmission SHOULD NOT loose that much power with such a low stall speed...it is uexcusable...that is a result of the internal parts used to make the converter...
if i bought a midwest 3200 2.0 str from hpa's site, threw it in a car that made the power your car or my car makes, it should not loose 30 hp unlocked compared to locked...
10 fine, 15...ok, but 30
i bet my left nut that each converter is NOT made custom...only if it needs something special or a unordinary stall speed
i bought my midwest used off the boards...it was on a cam/spray car that cut 1.5 sixties stock suspension...best ive gotten on motor with it so far cam only was a 1.78 on et streets...
any converter someone orders from midwest whether it be "custom" or off the shelf should have no problem with "blow through" on any motor not making 500 horsepower...plain and simple...
get them to rebuild it and see what happens...
