Non billet converters
03-24-2013, 12:27 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Non billet converters I have been looking at non billet converters lately (only making around 380 rwhp) and I have seen alot of people saying to stay away from cheaper brands, but after a few days of research I can't actually find anyone who broke any converter other than stock let alone a cheap one. Has anyone actually broken a converter? If so what brand and what stall? Thanks
03-24-2013, 12:29 PM
#2
Moderator
There is a long recent thread on PTC converters and several other threads too. The advice from the experts (not me!) seems to be that below 500HP, a billet converter is overkill.
03-24-2013, 12:33 PM
#3
On The Tree
Thread Starter
I know that, but I'm more talking about brands breaking such as I've heard I should stay away from companies such as B&M and from threads a few years ago it seemed like everyone hated RevMax but now it seems like people love them.
03-24-2013, 02:32 PM
#4
Read this thread and make up your own mind: https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/862534-torque-converter-education.html
It's not just power level, but especially the rigors of daily driving with frequent locking and unlocking that are tough on converter clutches. 9.5" converters using the stock front cover have small clutch area. A billet cover with a stout clutch provides peace of mind.
Also use of the Transgo shift kit that eliminates PWM is conducive to good clutch health.
It's not just power level, but especially the rigors of daily driving with frequent locking and unlocking that are tough on converter clutches. 9.5" converters using the stock front cover have small clutch area. A billet cover with a stout clutch provides peace of mind.
Also use of the Transgo shift kit that eliminates PWM is conducive to good clutch health.
03-25-2013, 03:55 PM
#7
It's not just power level, but especially the rigors of daily driving with frequent locking and unlocking that are tough on converter clutches.
I've never heard of anyone replacing torque converters after wearing out from daily driving.
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03-25-2013, 06:10 PM
#8
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Daily driving it like its the family vehicle...not likely to brake ****.
Daily driving like your at the track stop light to stop light...on ramp blasting..side street 0-60 launches..smashing the gas to catch up with traffic...Possible to break ****..Define DD...hahah
your right though...not too many threads about converters taking a ****. Love my revmax.
Daily driving like your at the track stop light to stop light...on ramp blasting..side street 0-60 launches..smashing the gas to catch up with traffic...Possible to break ****..Define DD...hahah
your right though...not too many threads about converters taking a ****. Love my revmax.
03-25-2013, 08:08 PM
#9
On The Tree
Thread Starter
One more question since the OP wasn't ever really answer I may as well post this here...What is the performance difference between the actually sizes of the TC as in 11.5 9.5 8 ect.
03-26-2013, 03:11 AM
#10
Let's not let this thread dengenerate into this brand or that. It's not the hard driving and WOT that kills conveter clutches, it's the daily grind of locking and unlocking the lock-up clutch. A billet front cover gives much greater clutch surface area. If you're looking for long term clutch life, regardless of your power level, it gives peace of mind.
03-26-2013, 07:23 AM
#12
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Actually, the OEM converters do fail quite a bit. The clutch lining eventually wears out and causes a converter failure. Now, many times the failure is not the converter, but the valve body causing the converter to fail. Leakage of the TCC valves in the VB cause low converter apply pressure and this in turn kills the converter...
03-26-2013, 07:56 AM
#13
You should come on by and let me show you the failures. You can put a stock converter behind anything.When you are spending your hard earned money on your hot rod dont let a few hundred bucks keep you from having the best. The biggest issue is that if you buy the cheaper one with the chance of failure that can cost you an entire transmission the few extra hundred seems cheap versus buying a transmission due to failure.
Greg
Greg
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FTI Converter build sheet
03-26-2013, 10:22 AM
#14
The biggest issue is that if you buy the cheaper one with the chance of failure that can cost you an entire transmission the few extra hundred seems cheap versus buying a transmission due to failure.
A stock LS1 converter is 12". A good performance converter is 9.5". Think about it.
03-26-2013, 10:55 AM
#15
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Although sometimes you do spend the extra money on the more expensive badass built converter and still ends up failing and taking out the whole transmission...while the stock converter keeps on going.
True, but isn't the clutch lining on a $800+ billet 9.5" converter a helluva lot better and stronger than any OEM one?
True, but isn't the clutch lining on a $800+ billet 9.5" converter a helluva lot better and stronger than any OEM one?
03-26-2013, 12:13 PM
#16
On The Tree
Thread Starter
I know there are strength differences between billet and non billet but what about strength and perform e differences between 11.5 converters and 9.5 and is there a difference in street ability between sizes?
03-26-2013, 03:48 PM
#17
Moderator
I barely know anything about converters, but to me it appears that low stall converters have to be bigger in diameter, while higher stall converter can be smaller and lighter. Its probably related to the physics of how they work.
You do want to keep the weight down.
You read about people complaining about the extra weight and rotating mass of a 4L80 over a 4L60E, but a 4L80E with a high stall light converter will have less rotating mass than a 4L60E with the heavy stock converter. In other words, it is desirable to keep the rotating mass down.
A billet converter is more than just the billet cover; for all the sponsors here and other reputable builders, the billet (i.e. higher priced) converters also have better internals which often makes them more efficient and streetable. I have read many threads here of people who switched from a budget (< $400) converter to a premium (> $700) converter, saying it was the best addition there ever made and wishing they had skipped the budget converter. I'm sure the lower priced converters made by the sponsors here are better than the mass-produced budget converters on the market, but their premium converters will knock your socks off and give you great value when you consider the price of your car and other performance tweaks.
In short, your desired stall speed seems to dictate the size of the converter. I've never seen a 4000 stall 11.5 converter not a 2200 stall 9.5" converter. Therefore two different diameter converter cannot be directly compared.
Just my opinion.
You do want to keep the weight down.
You read about people complaining about the extra weight and rotating mass of a 4L80 over a 4L60E, but a 4L80E with a high stall light converter will have less rotating mass than a 4L60E with the heavy stock converter. In other words, it is desirable to keep the rotating mass down.
A billet converter is more than just the billet cover; for all the sponsors here and other reputable builders, the billet (i.e. higher priced) converters also have better internals which often makes them more efficient and streetable. I have read many threads here of people who switched from a budget (< $400) converter to a premium (> $700) converter, saying it was the best addition there ever made and wishing they had skipped the budget converter. I'm sure the lower priced converters made by the sponsors here are better than the mass-produced budget converters on the market, but their premium converters will knock your socks off and give you great value when you consider the price of your car and other performance tweaks.
In short, your desired stall speed seems to dictate the size of the converter. I've never seen a 4000 stall 11.5 converter not a 2200 stall 9.5" converter. Therefore two different diameter converter cannot be directly compared.
Just my opinion.
03-26-2013, 07:04 PM
#18
On The Tree
Thread Starter
lets say I have 2 identical 3200 stall converters same brand and same upgrades, which is going to last longer an 11 inch or an 8 inch? which will perform better and which will drive better on the streets?
03-26-2013, 07:35 PM
#19
The torque converter is a type of centrifugal pump. Diameter plays a big factor in the RPM the converter starts to transmit power to the turbine. The bigger it is, the more surface area it has to pump the fluid. That is why a smaller converter will naturally stall higher, less area so it takes more RPM to transmit enough energy to get the turbine to move. There are several other factors that come into play - blade angles, stator blade design, tolerances just to name a few.
That is why I will recommend our 278mm or maybe our 258mm if it is more of a street ride, bigger diameter will move the car easier. While the 245mm typically has the best performance. Of course there are a lot of variables here, just giving a broad statement. Really depends on your build and what your cam/engine combo needs....
On the billet question. If we are using our 245mm, 258mm or 265mm options, I use our billet front. I like overkill. Upgrading to a CDS billet front gives you increased clutch surface area. A stronger lock up piston so you can apply more pressure to it for better holding capacity and no worries of flexing. Very rigid setup in the front cover, so the clutch surface area will remain flat.
We do have a non billet option in our 278mm. But this uses an OE style 12" clutch and we upgrade to a SW carbon clutch, which is better than the OE style. So it is a step above the factory setup, we rate our 278mm to hold 500 RWHP. Downside to the 278mm is that it maxes out at about 3200 flash stall, so it is not enough RPM for most CAM upgrades. This is where the 245mm and 258mm come into play.... 3500, 4000, 4500....\
Hopefully that help a little,
Chris
That is why I will recommend our 278mm or maybe our 258mm if it is more of a street ride, bigger diameter will move the car easier. While the 245mm typically has the best performance. Of course there are a lot of variables here, just giving a broad statement. Really depends on your build and what your cam/engine combo needs....
On the billet question. If we are using our 245mm, 258mm or 265mm options, I use our billet front. I like overkill. Upgrading to a CDS billet front gives you increased clutch surface area. A stronger lock up piston so you can apply more pressure to it for better holding capacity and no worries of flexing. Very rigid setup in the front cover, so the clutch surface area will remain flat.
We do have a non billet option in our 278mm. But this uses an OE style 12" clutch and we upgrade to a SW carbon clutch, which is better than the OE style. So it is a step above the factory setup, we rate our 278mm to hold 500 RWHP. Downside to the 278mm is that it maxes out at about 3200 flash stall, so it is not enough RPM for most CAM upgrades. This is where the 245mm and 258mm come into play.... 3500, 4000, 4500....\
Hopefully that help a little,
Chris
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03-26-2013, 07:45 PM
#20
On The Tree
Thread Starter
The torque converter is a type of centrifugal pump. Diameter plays a big factor in the RPM the converter starts to transmit power to the turbine. The bigger it is, the more surface area it has to pump the fluid. That is why a smaller converter will naturally stall higher, less area so it takes more RPM to transmit enough energy to get the turbine to move. There are several other factors that come into play - blade angles, stator blade design, tolerances just to name a few.
That is why I will recommend our 278mm or maybe our 258mm if it is more of a street ride, bigger diameter will move the car easier. While the 245mm typically has the best performance. Of course there are a lot of variables here, just giving a broad statement. Really depends on your build and what your cam/engine combo needs....
On the billet question. If we are using our 245mm, 258mm or 265mm options, I use our billet front. I like overkill. Upgrading to a CDS billet front gives you increased clutch surface area. A stronger lock up piston so you can apply more pressure to it for better holding capacity and no worries of flexing. Very rigid setup in the front cover, so the clutch surface area will remain flat.
We do have a non billet option in our 278mm. But this uses an OE style 12" clutch and we upgrade to a SW carbon clutch, which is better than the OE style. So it is a step above the factory setup, we rate our 278mm to hold 500 RWHP. Downside to the 278mm is that it maxes out at about 3200 flash stall, so it is not enough RPM for most CAM upgrades. This is where the 245mm and 258mm come into play.... 3500, 4000, 4500....\
Hopefully that help a little,
Chris
That is why I will recommend our 278mm or maybe our 258mm if it is more of a street ride, bigger diameter will move the car easier. While the 245mm typically has the best performance. Of course there are a lot of variables here, just giving a broad statement. Really depends on your build and what your cam/engine combo needs....
On the billet question. If we are using our 245mm, 258mm or 265mm options, I use our billet front. I like overkill. Upgrading to a CDS billet front gives you increased clutch surface area. A stronger lock up piston so you can apply more pressure to it for better holding capacity and no worries of flexing. Very rigid setup in the front cover, so the clutch surface area will remain flat.
We do have a non billet option in our 278mm. But this uses an OE style 12" clutch and we upgrade to a SW carbon clutch, which is better than the OE style. So it is a step above the factory setup, we rate our 278mm to hold 500 RWHP. Downside to the 278mm is that it maxes out at about 3200 flash stall, so it is not enough RPM for most CAM upgrades. This is where the 245mm and 258mm come into play.... 3500, 4000, 4500....\
Hopefully that help a little,
Chris