First 4l80e build. Here we go!
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TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted by truckdoug
they are very easy to remove. couple soft boops with a deadblow and they'll come right off. you do have to remove them to get at the rear case seal and thrust bushing/bearing
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
Well, I got a little farther along tonight. I was told the transmission was fine, it had just been sitting. Nope. Check out the forward carnage. The snap ring had gotten hot and wasn't springy any more, the forward hub is kinda black, the forward clutches are toast, and the seal on the piston is completely ripped. The missing piece was underneath. I would not have been able to figure this out without all the helpful posts on here and great videos on YouTube!
Here are some pics. Any advice on the last pic?
https://imgur.com/a/asIMRkf
Fortunately, I have a complete rebuild kit with all new molded pistons, hi energy bw clutches, and steels. Next I need to look up how to remove the rear seal. Then I can drive out the old bushing, and drive in a new one to rollerize the output. The original bushing and steel plate measured out to 0.150". The new bearing with shims will either be .1485 or .153. Which is better? Thanks again for everyone's help!
Here are some pics. Any advice on the last pic?
https://imgur.com/a/asIMRkf
Fortunately, I have a complete rebuild kit with all new molded pistons, hi energy bw clutches, and steels. Next I need to look up how to remove the rear seal. Then I can drive out the old bushing, and drive in a new one to rollerize the output. The original bushing and steel plate measured out to 0.150". The new bearing with shims will either be .1485 or .153. Which is better? Thanks again for everyone's help!
TECH Junkie
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From: Nitro Alley
Yup... that's what cooked transmission insides look like! :-P
If you are talking about the seal at the back of the case (not a tail-shaft housing)...
There is a nice big snap-ring that you can remove with snap-ring pliers or two large picks.
You can pry the seal out afterwards and knock out the case bushing too.
I actually really like the design of both the seal and the retaining snap-ring (it actually has holes for the **** of the snap-ring pliers).
Gee, I wonder if we know anyone who worked on the team for the 4L80E...?
Loooooooooool! sorry! :-P It's not like I invented those parts...
But I do feel good about fighting for them... I wish they would have listened to us on the case bushing.. Cough! Cough! Needs a THM400 bushing... LOL!
If you are talking about the seal at the back of the case (not a tail-shaft housing)...
There is a nice big snap-ring that you can remove with snap-ring pliers or two large picks.
You can pry the seal out afterwards and knock out the case bushing too.
I actually really like the design of both the seal and the retaining snap-ring (it actually has holes for the **** of the snap-ring pliers).
Gee, I wonder if we know anyone who worked on the team for the 4L80E...?
Loooooooooool! sorry! :-P It's not like I invented those parts...
But I do feel good about fighting for them... I wish they would have listened to us on the case bushing.. Cough! Cough! Needs a THM400 bushing... LOL!
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Iowa
Thanks for making the pump bushing fit the case!
I always use one of the late model "wide" pump bushings in place of the output shaft bushing. Knock it .080 proud towards the bell and use th350 roller bearing for the thrust.
OP notice the cut marks on the fwd piston. This means the hub has moved away from the direct drum and into the piston.
Get a thicker thrust washer to move it up and away from the piston.
As for the last photo...you must have an earlier model 4l80e that has the grooved band.
It wears a pattern into the reaction carrier like that.
Can you feel it pretty distinctly with your finger or is it more cosmetic?
Looks awfully raised to me
I always use one of the late model "wide" pump bushings in place of the output shaft bushing. Knock it .080 proud towards the bell and use th350 roller bearing for the thrust.
OP notice the cut marks on the fwd piston. This means the hub has moved away from the direct drum and into the piston.
Get a thicker thrust washer to move it up and away from the piston.
As for the last photo...you must have an earlier model 4l80e that has the grooved band.
It wears a pattern into the reaction carrier like that.
Can you feel it pretty distinctly with your finger or is it more cosmetic?
Looks awfully raised to me
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
Vorteciroc:
The case seal is the one I'm talking about. I got the snap ring out but the seal is in there pretty good. I will try again tonight.
Maroonmonsterls1:
I could feel it with my finger on the reaction carrier. I'll hold a straight edge to it and snap a pic tonight.
I got a kit from ck performance with the new bushing, bearing, and shins to rollerize the rear output. I just need to figure if I want the clearance to be a few thousandths over or under. Maybe it's not such a big deal since it's not a huge difference either way
The case seal is the one I'm talking about. I got the snap ring out but the seal is in there pretty good. I will try again tonight.
Maroonmonsterls1:
I could feel it with my finger on the reaction carrier. I'll hold a straight edge to it and snap a pic tonight.
I got a kit from ck performance with the new bushing, bearing, and shins to rollerize the rear output. I just need to figure if I want the clearance to be a few thousandths over or under. Maybe it's not such a big deal since it's not a huge difference either way
Thread Starter
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From: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
I also do not recommend using the Forward, and Direct apply pistons that you have.
Sometimes they work perfectly for a long time... and other times they crack out of no where!
There is an updated design (Steel instead of cast Aluminum) for these also.
Sometimes they work perfectly for a long time... and other times they crack out of no where!
There is an updated design (Steel instead of cast Aluminum) for these also.
TECH Junkie
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From: Iowa
Yes. reuse the int. piston just with new seals
If you haven't already purchased an "HD Intermediate Snap Ring" (for way too much money)
you can buy a .106" thick snap ring for a TF727 chrysler transmission.
It tightens up int. clearance and also is significantly stronger than stock. And is CHEAP
If you haven't already purchased an "HD Intermediate Snap Ring" (for way too much money)
you can buy a .106" thick snap ring for a TF727 chrysler transmission.
It tightens up int. clearance and also is significantly stronger than stock. And is CHEAP
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted by MaroonMonsterLS1
Yes. reuse the int. piston just with new seals
If you haven't already purchased an "HD Intermediate Snap Ring" (for way too much money)
you can buy a .106" thick snap ring for a TF727 chrysler transmission.
It tightens up int. clearance and also is significantly stronger than stock. And is CHEAP
If you haven't already purchased an "HD Intermediate Snap Ring" (for way too much money)
you can buy a .106" thick snap ring for a TF727 chrysler transmission.
It tightens up int. clearance and also is significantly stronger than stock. And is CHEAP
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Junkie
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From: Nitro Alley
Substitution for the case bushing was not on our minds... but it works very nicely!
We kept suggesting that the TH400 bushing with oil-grooves like the reaction carrier bushing be substituted instead of the original case bushing...
This though was tied into using the torrington bearing as well.
I believe that our cost for the torrington bearing (+/- a shim) and th400 bushing, per unit was around $4.87 or something close to that...
This was considered to be a waste of an update, and obviously never done.
The cost of the 3 original parts was actually about 20 somethings cents more expensive (the selective spacers were most of the cost).
We were told that the costs of changing the assembly procedure on the assembly line, in the technician training, GM repair guidelines, and the education of all GM employees and Dealership employees (non-corporate)...
Would end up costing far too much.
I personally like the bushing with the oiling grooves (0.615" wide) over the nice late unit pump bushing (0.700" wide).
But that would be my second choice.
As you know... many people who do not know any better, end up installing the case bushing upside down (oil groove opening facing the drive-shaft; and making the oil groove worthless).
So, considering that... The wider, late pump bushing would be a better choice (especially compared to the grooved bushing upside down) for many people.
TECH Junkie
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From: Nitro Alley
Retail on these from a decent Transmissions parts supplier should be about 3 US dollars and change each.
People jazz-up the name of this part or similar part... and jack-up the price to as much as 20 something US dollars...
CRAZY!
There is actually a nice "Spirolock"/ "Spirolox" made to fit this location...
I do not use them often; but when no intermediate over-run band is used... an anchor and the spirolock work nicely to help prevent case lug issues.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
So I rollerized the output last night. I drove the old bushing out and put a new wider one in. It's easy to turn the shaft inside of the case but the output shaft at the back of the transmission doesn't turn as easily. Is this normal or did i tap the new bushing in a little too far?
TECH Junkie
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From: Nitro Alley
You need to disassemble what you have, and inspect component fitment individually.
When ever you are going to replace a bushing...
Place the bushing on the mating component first (the Output Shaft), before installing the bushing in the part it is intended for (the Case).
Bushings can require resizing/ clearancing for proper fitment.
When you have the rear section assembled... the Low-Reverse One-Way Roller-Clutch will cause the output-shaft the feel differently as it is turned in both directions.
You can also hear a squealing sound in one direction... this is normal.
When ever you are going to replace a bushing...
Place the bushing on the mating component first (the Output Shaft), before installing the bushing in the part it is intended for (the Case).
Bushings can require resizing/ clearancing for proper fitment.
When you have the rear section assembled... the Low-Reverse One-Way Roller-Clutch will cause the output-shaft the feel differently as it is turned in both directions.
You can also hear a squealing sound in one direction... this is normal.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
You need to disassemble what you have, and inspect component fitment individually.
When ever you are going to replace a bushing...
Place the bushing on the mating component first (the Output Shaft), before installing the bushing in the part it is intended for (the Case).
Bushings can require resizing/ clearancing for proper fitment.
When you have the rear section assembled... the Low-Reverse One-Way Roller-Clutch will cause the output-shaft the feel differently as it is turned in both directions.
You can also hear a squealing sound in one direction... this is normal.
When ever you are going to replace a bushing...
Place the bushing on the mating component first (the Output Shaft), before installing the bushing in the part it is intended for (the Case).
Bushings can require resizing/ clearancing for proper fitment.
When you have the rear section assembled... the Low-Reverse One-Way Roller-Clutch will cause the output-shaft the feel differently as it is turned in both directions.
You can also hear a squealing sound in one direction... this is normal.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Iowa
slather some astro glide on there and it won't squeak anymore
the low/roller will squeal when it is being spun in freewheel direction.
If you're uncertain about the bushing fitment, leave the bushing in the case and drop just the output into the bushing and see how it spins
the low/roller will squeal when it is being spun in freewheel direction.
If you're uncertain about the bushing fitment, leave the bushing in the case and drop just the output into the bushing and see how it spins
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
I'm hoping to dig into the forward clutches tonight. I did notice in my kit(transtar) that some of the clutches are green and some appear to be an orange/tan color. I believe they do say borg Warner on them and I was told they are hi energy. I know other posters had mentioned to only use the green. Are the others ok also or should I return the kit?
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From: Nitro Alley
Only the Forward, Direct, and Intermediate friction plates are available in Green (Borg Warner High Energy).
The Over-run and Over-drive friction plates will be tan/ paper.
Alto produces their own version of High Energy frictions (Called G3) but they don't compare to the Borg Warner stuff.
The reason I mention this, is because the Alto G3 frictions are available for clutches that Borg Warner did not offer in High Energy.
Allomatic (Raybestos) does also offer green and black High Energy frictions for additional clutches.
I like these better than the Alto G3s... but still not as much as the Borg Warner frictions.
The Over-run and Over-drive friction plates will be tan/ paper.
Alto produces their own version of High Energy frictions (Called G3) but they don't compare to the Borg Warner stuff.
The reason I mention this, is because the Alto G3 frictions are available for clutches that Borg Warner did not offer in High Energy.
Allomatic (Raybestos) does also offer green and black High Energy frictions for additional clutches.
I like these better than the Alto G3s... but still not as much as the Borg Warner frictions.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted by vorteciroc
Only the Forward, Direct, and Intermediate friction plates are available in Green (Borg Warner High Energy).
The Over-run and Over-drive friction plates will be tan/ paper.
Alto produces their own version of High Energy frictions (Called G3) but they don't compare to the Borg Warner stuff.
The reason I mention this, is because the Alto G3 frictions are available for clutches that Borg Warner did not offer in High Energy.
Allomatic (Raybestos) does also offer green and black High Energy frictions for additional clutches.
I like these better than the Alto G3s... but still not as much as the Borg Warner frictions.
The Over-run and Over-drive friction plates will be tan/ paper.
Alto produces their own version of High Energy frictions (Called G3) but they don't compare to the Borg Warner stuff.
The reason I mention this, is because the Alto G3 frictions are available for clutches that Borg Warner did not offer in High Energy.
Allomatic (Raybestos) does also offer green and black High Energy frictions for additional clutches.
I like these better than the Alto G3s... but still not as much as the Borg Warner frictions.
Thread Starter
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2012
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From: Tucson, AZ
So tonight I set up the direct clutch. I drilled the hole in the edge and left off the center seal to direct feed. I used a new molded piston and, as recommended, I used 6 .077 forward steels and 6 frictions with no waveplate. I think the clearance is right around .060 but I'll watch another video to be sure I'm doing it right.
Because I used the forward steels, I need to get another 5 .077 steels to get the forward set up correct?. I got an extra clutch when I bought the kit but it is orange/tan. I will get another green hi energy friction along with a new roller clutch from the reaction carrier as the rollers all fell out of mine. Feels got to be making progress!
Because I used the forward steels, I need to get another 5 .077 steels to get the forward set up correct?. I got an extra clutch when I bought the kit but it is orange/tan. I will get another green hi energy friction along with a new roller clutch from the reaction carrier as the rollers all fell out of mine. Feels got to be making progress!
Thread Starter
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From: Tucson, AZ
So I took another look at it and even with no waveplate, with 6x .077 steels, and 6 frictions, my clearance was actually just under .040. I added back the waveplate, and went back to 5 frictions and steels(a combo of .090 and .077 steels and now my clearance is .053 which I think is good.
I'm going to try to pick up a waveplate tomorrow and take a crack at the forwards. If the old steels were in decent shape, is it a bad idea to use 1 or 2 if need be to get the clearance right or should I just pick up another couple of new steels? Thanks for the help everyone!
I'm going to try to pick up a waveplate tomorrow and take a crack at the forwards. If the old steels were in decent shape, is it a bad idea to use 1 or 2 if need be to get the clearance right or should I just pick up another couple of new steels? Thanks for the help everyone!