Advice wanted: Wuss converter
05-07-2002, 11:51 PM
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Advice wanted: Wuss converter Yet another which-converter question:
My car is a daily driver with 2.73 rearend which I don't plan to change. It's a 2002 Z28, vert. I've got Kenny Brown DD subframes and an STB. I'm willing to do other suspension mods that are not too extreme.
What I want from the torque converter, in order of importance:
1. No codes or SES lights (Recall, this is a 2002)
2. No lockup problems
3. Not too loose. (I drove a car with a Yank 3500, and it was, like weird, man.)
3. Okay with the stock polished aluminum 16" wheels, and tires that are steetable and okay in the rain. Snow is no problem. I might be willing to get wider wheels, but I don't want a bigger diameter. Northern California roads have ruts that make tracking bad enough with the 16"ers.
...
Yeah, call me a wuss, but that's what I want -- more oomph, but not at the expense of driveability on the street. I'll probably never take it to the track, and I try to avoid street races (although sometimes the temptation is a bit too much).
What say you all? What is the perfect wussy torque converter?
My car is a daily driver with 2.73 rearend which I don't plan to change. It's a 2002 Z28, vert. I've got Kenny Brown DD subframes and an STB. I'm willing to do other suspension mods that are not too extreme.
What I want from the torque converter, in order of importance:
1. No codes or SES lights (Recall, this is a 2002)
2. No lockup problems
3. Not too loose. (I drove a car with a Yank 3500, and it was, like weird, man.)
3. Okay with the stock polished aluminum 16" wheels, and tires that are steetable and okay in the rain. Snow is no problem. I might be willing to get wider wheels, but I don't want a bigger diameter. Northern California roads have ruts that make tracking bad enough with the 16"ers.
...
Yeah, call me a wuss, but that's what I want -- more oomph, but not at the expense of driveability on the street. I'll probably never take it to the track, and I try to avoid street races (although sometimes the temptation is a bit too much).
What say you all? What is the perfect wussy torque converter?
05-08-2002, 02:22 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter Vig or yank 2800 plus a cooler. I have the ST3500 ver 2(no codes for 2001-2002's) and ya kinda get used to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-08-2002, 07:49 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter Plenty of us Wuss converter guys out there so don't be ashamed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> I would say a 2800 or 3000 stall would be good for ya. If you're willing to put some Nitto DRs in back (which will drive fine in the rain BTW) then i'll recommend what I got which is the Vig 2800. If you are gonna use your basic street tire then the Yank TT2800 would be a better choice.
05-08-2002, 08:05 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter vig 2800 will solve your probs..
you have to look at the STR of each converter here.. since you have 2.73's you want a higher STR... like 2.5-3.0
you might want to check out the 3000TT with 3.0 str
Mike can custom biuld you a converter for your gears, just call him and talk to him.
oh and STR is the stall torque ratio.. say some converters have a 1.8str so that 1.8times your tq sorta...
now 2.5 times that off the line.. thus you make up for having a high gear off the line <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
hopefully this makes sense.. i wouldnt get the 2800TT cause i couldnt even feel the sucker!!
get something you can atleast feel in the car.. and 3000TT or vig2800 would be perfect for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
you have to look at the STR of each converter here.. since you have 2.73's you want a higher STR... like 2.5-3.0
you might want to check out the 3000TT with 3.0 str
Mike can custom biuld you a converter for your gears, just call him and talk to him.
oh and STR is the stall torque ratio.. say some converters have a 1.8str so that 1.8times your tq sorta...
now 2.5 times that off the line.. thus you make up for having a high gear off the line <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
hopefully this makes sense.. i wouldnt get the 2800TT cause i couldnt even feel the sucker!!
get something you can atleast feel in the car.. and 3000TT or vig2800 would be perfect for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
05-08-2002, 09:01 AM
#5
Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter A Yank TT3000 3.0 STR or the TT2800 3.0 STR would work very well.
I was a converter wus in the beginning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" /> and had a TT 2800. Very noticable improvement and felt about the same as stock. I had 3.23s and it was a little overpowering with Goodyear RSAs. However with 2.73 gears and a decent street tire or nittos, it will be fine. The extra stall of TT3000 will not make it any harder to launch and provide a little more punch.
A Yank stealth 3200 will give some extra punch off-the-line, but doesn't help from a roll like the TT converters.
I was a converter wus in the beginning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" /> and had a TT 2800. Very noticable improvement and felt about the same as stock. I had 3.23s and it was a little overpowering with Goodyear RSAs. However with 2.73 gears and a decent street tire or nittos, it will be fine. The extra stall of TT3000 will not make it any harder to launch and provide a little more punch.
A Yank stealth 3200 will give some extra punch off-the-line, but doesn't help from a roll like the TT converters.
05-08-2002, 09:04 AM
#6
Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter I'm going to be in the minority here, but I would highly recommend the Pro Yank 3400...not the Extreme model, but the regular Pro Yank. This converter is much lighter than most other Wuss converters so it will have excellent acceleration. It has an extremely aggressive stator, giving it a very high stall torque ratio...making it ideal for a car with 2.73 gears. It will be snappier to the throttle than any other converter I can think of. It will probably stall closer to 3200-3300 in your application and will feel MUCH tighter than a Super Yank 3500. You can easily pull away in traffic with only 1500 rpms on the tach...it won't go full stall unless you place the shifter in 2nd gear and stomp on the gas and brake at the same time (neat 2000-2002 F-Body trick).
I've owned a bunch of converters and I can tell you this much: GM should have put the Pro Yank 3400 in as original equipment. This is a much better converter than the Yank TT3000 and Stealth Thruster 3200 and will feel much tighter and responsive than the Vig 2800 too.
I've owned a bunch of converters and I can tell you this much: GM should have put the Pro Yank 3400 in as original equipment. This is a much better converter than the Yank TT3000 and Stealth Thruster 3200 and will feel much tighter and responsive than the Vig 2800 too.
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05-08-2002, 09:33 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Patrick G:
<strong>I'm going to be in the minority here, but I would highly recommend the Pro Yank 3400...not the Extreme model, but the regular Pro Yank. This converter is much lighter than most other Wuss converters so it will have excellent acceleration. It has an extremely aggressive stator, giving it a very high stall torque ratio...making it ideal for a car with 2.73 gears. It will be snappier to the throttle than any other converter I can think of. It will probably stall closer to 3200-3300 in your application and will feel MUCH tighter than a Super Yank 3500. You can easily pull away in traffic with only 1500 rpms on the tach...it won't go full stall unless you place the shifter in 2nd gear and stomp on the gas and brake at the same time (neat 2000-2002 F-Body trick).
I've owned a bunch of converters and I can tell you this much: GM should have put the Pro Yank 3400 in as original equipment. This is a much better converter than the Yank TT3000 and Stealth Thruster 3200 and will feel much tighter and responsive than the Vig 2800 too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So... I take it you don't think there would be any problem with codes or lockup with the Pro Yank 3400? I test drove a Super Yank 3500 (or some kind of Yank 3500) for just a few minutes once, and it threw a code. In fairness to the "code-thrower", I might mention that I accidentally got all four wheels air borne. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" /> The acceleration got the front two off the gound, and the speed bump did the rest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But the owner said it did it frequently. -- Threw codes, that is, not bounded into the air. I also wasn't sure I could get used to the mushy feel.
Give me some encouraging words about codes and lockup.
<strong>I'm going to be in the minority here, but I would highly recommend the Pro Yank 3400...not the Extreme model, but the regular Pro Yank. This converter is much lighter than most other Wuss converters so it will have excellent acceleration. It has an extremely aggressive stator, giving it a very high stall torque ratio...making it ideal for a car with 2.73 gears. It will be snappier to the throttle than any other converter I can think of. It will probably stall closer to 3200-3300 in your application and will feel MUCH tighter than a Super Yank 3500. You can easily pull away in traffic with only 1500 rpms on the tach...it won't go full stall unless you place the shifter in 2nd gear and stomp on the gas and brake at the same time (neat 2000-2002 F-Body trick).
I've owned a bunch of converters and I can tell you this much: GM should have put the Pro Yank 3400 in as original equipment. This is a much better converter than the Yank TT3000 and Stealth Thruster 3200 and will feel much tighter and responsive than the Vig 2800 too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So... I take it you don't think there would be any problem with codes or lockup with the Pro Yank 3400? I test drove a Super Yank 3500 (or some kind of Yank 3500) for just a few minutes once, and it threw a code. In fairness to the "code-thrower", I might mention that I accidentally got all four wheels air borne. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="gr_emb.gif" /> The acceleration got the front two off the gound, and the speed bump did the rest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But the owner said it did it frequently. -- Threw codes, that is, not bounded into the air. I also wasn't sure I could get used to the mushy feel.
Give me some encouraging words about codes and lockup.
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05-08-2002, 10:00 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Patrick G:
<strong>I'm going to be in the minority here [...] </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Everyone is in the minority! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>
I've owned a bunch of converters and I can tell you this much: GM should have put the Pro Yank 3400 in as original equipment. This is a much better converter than the Yank TT3000 and Stealth Thruster 3200 and will feel much tighter and responsive than the Vig 2800 too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm confused. I went to the Yank web page. I couldn't find any mention of a "Pro Yank 3400" that was not "extreme." Is there a web page where I can find the "un-extreme" PY 3400? Also, one blurb rather strongly suggests a TT 3.0 2800 for my application:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>
"The Yank Torque Thruster 3.0 is a series of converters for individuals who want maximum thrust off the line without going to excessive stall. [snip...] The converter is the best choice for individuals who's primary consideration is drivability and who plan to go to the track rarely. The Thruster 2800 provides very good part throttle responsiveness and will provide a significant boost in the 2500 - 3500 rpm range compared with either stock or the Stealth. This converter works best in cars with a mild motor (e.g., lid & cat-back) and 2.73 gears."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's interesting you should say the converter is the one GM "should have" put on the car. I've driven sticks most of my life, but I drove a lot of automatics at my Dad's filling station back in the '60's, and I don't remember any of them creeping forward as much as my Z28 does. But then, I don't remeber any that you had to goose as much to get rolling as the one I literally launched either. Something in between would be better.
<img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
<strong>I'm going to be in the minority here [...] </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Everyone is in the minority! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>
I've owned a bunch of converters and I can tell you this much: GM should have put the Pro Yank 3400 in as original equipment. This is a much better converter than the Yank TT3000 and Stealth Thruster 3200 and will feel much tighter and responsive than the Vig 2800 too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm confused. I went to the Yank web page. I couldn't find any mention of a "Pro Yank 3400" that was not "extreme." Is there a web page where I can find the "un-extreme" PY 3400? Also, one blurb rather strongly suggests a TT 3.0 2800 for my application:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>
"The Yank Torque Thruster 3.0 is a series of converters for individuals who want maximum thrust off the line without going to excessive stall. [snip...] The converter is the best choice for individuals who's primary consideration is drivability and who plan to go to the track rarely. The Thruster 2800 provides very good part throttle responsiveness and will provide a significant boost in the 2500 - 3500 rpm range compared with either stock or the Stealth. This converter works best in cars with a mild motor (e.g., lid & cat-back) and 2.73 gears."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's interesting you should say the converter is the one GM "should have" put on the car. I've driven sticks most of my life, but I drove a lot of automatics at my Dad's filling station back in the '60's, and I don't remember any of them creeping forward as much as my Z28 does. But then, I don't remeber any that you had to goose as much to get rolling as the one I literally launched either. Something in between would be better.
<img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-08-2002, 05:00 PM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter Yanks have been known to throw codes, especially in the newer cars. Thats why I would recommend a Vig 2800. Its a tight converter at the same time codes have never been an issue. Good luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
05-08-2002, 05:10 PM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Patrick G:
<strong>...it won't go full stall unless you place the shifter in 2nd gear and stomp on the gas and brake at the same time (neat 2000-2002 F-Body trick).
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
<strong>...it won't go full stall unless you place the shifter in 2nd gear and stomp on the gas and brake at the same time (neat 2000-2002 F-Body trick).
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
05-08-2002, 05:51 PM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Loco:
<strong>Yanks have been known to throw codes, especially in the newer cars. Thats why I would recommend a Vig 2800. Its a tight converter at the same time codes have never been an issue. Good luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I had a conversation with Mike at Yank. He spoke very highly of Patrick G, but couldn't go along with the Pro Yank 3400 idea. He said he had only put one or two of those on 2002 cars and he "could not guarantee" that it would not toss codes. He pitched the Stealth 2800 because, well, it's stealthy. I asked about the Torque Thruster 2800 3.0, and he said, "Oh, that would give you better performance, but the dealership would be able to tell."
Now then, codes. Codes. Codes. Codes. The woman at Yank who answers the phone said they only very recently figured out what was happening with the codes, and they fixed it. Plus, by the legal principle of "the exception proves the rule," when Mike said he could not guarantee the PY 3400 would not throw codes, he implied that he *could* guarantee the other two we discussed would not. (Of course, he may not know that rule! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> )
To heck with it. It's my danged car, not the dealer's. I'm going to slap a TT 2800 3.0 on that baby. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
<strong>Yanks have been known to throw codes, especially in the newer cars. Thats why I would recommend a Vig 2800. Its a tight converter at the same time codes have never been an issue. Good luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I had a conversation with Mike at Yank. He spoke very highly of Patrick G, but couldn't go along with the Pro Yank 3400 idea. He said he had only put one or two of those on 2002 cars and he "could not guarantee" that it would not toss codes. He pitched the Stealth 2800 because, well, it's stealthy. I asked about the Torque Thruster 2800 3.0, and he said, "Oh, that would give you better performance, but the dealership would be able to tell."
Now then, codes. Codes. Codes. Codes. The woman at Yank who answers the phone said they only very recently figured out what was happening with the codes, and they fixed it. Plus, by the legal principle of "the exception proves the rule," when Mike said he could not guarantee the PY 3400 would not throw codes, he implied that he *could* guarantee the other two we discussed would not. (Of course, he may not know that rule! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> )
To heck with it. It's my danged car, not the dealer's. I'm going to slap a TT 2800 3.0 on that baby. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-09-2002, 12:22 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter A ProYank 3400 would be a good choice; I don't think of it often as it is expensive, but if Mike builds it for non-nitrous use, he probably can reduce the price.
Y3000 & 3.23s is a very good daily driver combo. A little looser than stock, but not bad at all.
Y3000 & 3.23s is a very good daily driver combo. A little looser than stock, but not bad at all.
05-09-2002, 09:04 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter My vote for what you are looking for would be a Vig 2600 or 2800. Great streetability and will really rock at full throttle.
05-09-2002, 01:35 PM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DriveATransAm:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Patrick G:
<strong>...it won't go full stall unless you place the shifter in 2nd gear and stomp on the gas and brake at the same time (neat 2000-2002 F-Body trick).
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">holy crap <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
that vig3200 stalls ****** high <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
i thought you meant when you were driving.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Patrick G:
<strong>...it won't go full stall unless you place the shifter in 2nd gear and stomp on the gas and brake at the same time (neat 2000-2002 F-Body trick).
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">holy crap <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
that vig3200 stalls ****** high <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
i thought you meant when you were driving.
05-09-2002, 02:13 PM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Paul @ Thunder:
<strong>My vote for what you are looking for would be a Vig 2600 or 2800. Great streetability and will really rock at full throttle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TT, PY, ST, ... I`m getting a headache already <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />
I`ll have to agree with Paul, Vig. it and forget it. No codes GUARANTEED!!
<strong>My vote for what you are looking for would be a Vig 2600 or 2800. Great streetability and will really rock at full throttle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TT, PY, ST, ... I`m getting a headache already <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />
I`ll have to agree with Paul, Vig. it and forget it. No codes GUARANTEED!!
05-09-2002, 09:37 PM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Paul @ Thunder:
<strong>My vote for what you are looking for would be a Vig 2600 or 2800. Great streetability and will really rock at full throttle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you tell me what the STR is for each of those?
Dave
<strong>My vote for what you are looking for would be a Vig 2600 or 2800. Great streetability and will really rock at full throttle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you tell me what the STR is for each of those?
Dave
05-09-2002, 11:44 PM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter Screw it get the New ST3500 Ver.2(No codes)
I have 2.73's and the ST3500 and it plain rocks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Do you plan on doing anything else ie Heads/cam headers blah blah..... if so you can get used to it being loose. When you go WOT and leave 40' of boiled tires behind ya you'll know what I mean. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
I have 2.73's and the ST3500 and it plain rocks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Do you plan on doing anything else ie Heads/cam headers blah blah..... if so you can get used to it being loose. When you go WOT and leave 40' of boiled tires behind ya you'll know what I mean. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-10-2002, 12:08 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter ST3500 and 2:73 gears here. My car gained 4.5mph and dropped a whole second with just the converter swap. Little loose on the street with the 2:73s, but you get used to it after a day or two <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
05-10-2002, 06:56 AM
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Re: Advice wanted: Wuss converter You guys are recommending a 3500 stall for the guy when he already said he drove a car with that stall and didn't like the driveability. Remember that everyone isn't concerned with producing the bestETs otherwise we'd all have 4400 verters. Remember that this is the Wuss Converter thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />