going from 2:73 to 3:73...worth it?
not to argue guys but the 305-310HP increase in the '01 and '02 LS1's is not from the LS6 intake but instead from the smaller cam...the '01 and '02 have have the smaller cams from the 5.3L LS based truck motors, these cams were more efficient, made 5 more HP, and also allowed the engine to run cleaner....the whole reason that the '01 and 02's do not have !AIR but only the !EGR...
after reading all of this, i wonder why tenths and mpg are being argued on the same page. if you're worried about tenths, you obviously don't give a damn about mpg. if you're worried about mpg, you obviously don't give a damn about tenths. i feel that a person's budget has more to do with what they mod than anything else. if you change something and it feels better, then it is an improvement. but for every action, there is an opposite and equal re-action. never fails!...slp is overrated IMOP
the SLP Vette comment i pointed out because you made a hypothetical claim of power that was just stupid. It still is. As for the engine difference, i said MIGHT have a different cam profile. I wasn't sure, so i said might, just in case i was wrong. And I was. I was not thinking of the LS6. You don't know what i'm thinking. The exhaust does flow considerably better than the fbody.
Also, you point out the power diff is "significant" between the f-body and vetter rw #s. I wouldn't call a 7 rwhp difference "significant" on a 350 hp motor.
2%. You claim it dynoed lower because of independed rear? It makes a diff at the dragstrip, but prove to me that independent rears dyno lower.
Oh yeah, you posted twice. Mop it up.
Also, you point out the power diff is "significant" between the f-body and vetter rw #s. I wouldn't call a 7 rwhp difference "significant" on a 350 hp motor.
2%. You claim it dynoed lower because of independed rear? It makes a diff at the dragstrip, but prove to me that independent rears dyno lower.Oh yeah, you posted twice. Mop it up.
the LS1 in the Vette and LS1 in the F body are the same motor. the F body ones were just downrated because they didnt want any car to have near the same HP as the vette, even though they had the same ammount. if you really want to know the diffrences... 97-99 vette motors and 98-99 f body motors are the same with diffrent exhaust and intake manifolds (intake had no EGR) with 853 heads and the "big" cam, also had very poor oil return and weak rodbolts. in 00 they switched blocks to one that had better oil return, also late 00s had 241 casting heads. in 01 they had the same block as 00s, but they all had 241 heads, a smaller cam and an LS6 intake also better rodbolts. to my knowledge they stayed the same till 04. 97-00 motors dyno a little less than the 00-04 motors on account of the LS6 intakes.
the main diffrences between the F body and Y body LS1s are the exhaust manifolds, the no egr on the 97-00 Y bodies and then the accessory mounting.
oh, one last thing, dont get SLP headers, they are crap in tubluar form. get coated pacesetters.
the main diffrences between the F body and Y body LS1s are the exhaust manifolds, the no egr on the 97-00 Y bodies and then the accessory mounting.
oh, one last thing, dont get SLP headers, they are crap in tubluar form. get coated pacesetters.
Ok--I was going to stay out of this thread because of how silly it has become and the half dozen topics it's moved to, but this needs corrected for impressionable readers because of how far from the truth it is.
Adding a heads/cam package---even with a "mild" cam (say a 224/228 grind)---will absolutely hurt your gas mileage more than a moderate gear swap will....period. Adding heads/cam significantly increases your motor's ability to move air in and out of the combustion chamber. That extra air requires extra fuel....at every single rpm, all day, every day-- not just "when you get on it". If the cam you pick has any significant overlap, you're even wasting quite a bit of fuel at idle.
Most heads/cam packages for the ls1 (again, cam selection makes a big difference here) make their power at higher rpm. Your lower rpm power won't be much better than stock, if better at all. You sure as hell won't be faster at 2500rpm. 
In fact, after a head/cam swap, you'll probably have to stay up around 3k rpm or higher to move at the same rate as 2500rpm moved you when stock, but once you get up into that higher rpm powerband....watch out 
.
Anyone on this board with an a4 heads/cam car and a matching stall converter will tell you there's not a chance in hell their mileage went up...I don't care what gears they have either. 
No amount of tuning will change the fact that more horsepower requires more fuel. You're moving more air/fuel at all rpms, and your staying at higher rpms more often because that's where your stall will put you....right in your powerband.
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
first of all, heads and cam will yield less gas consumption than a gear swap as long as you drive responsibly. why? heads and cam will suck a lot of gas, but only when you get on it. gears suck the gas all day every day.
Adding a heads/cam package---even with a "mild" cam (say a 224/228 grind)---will absolutely hurt your gas mileage more than a moderate gear swap will....period. Adding heads/cam significantly increases your motor's ability to move air in and out of the combustion chamber. That extra air requires extra fuel....at every single rpm, all day, every day-- not just "when you get on it". If the cam you pick has any significant overlap, you're even wasting quite a bit of fuel at idle.
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
also, if you get your heads done and tuned properly, theoretically, you can pull BETTER than stock gas mileage because your engine requires less effort to turn at lower rpm's. where you would usually have to rev to 2500rpm's in order to go anywhere decently, now you can do it at 2200rpm's.
In fact, after a head/cam swap, you'll probably have to stay up around 3k rpm or higher to move at the same rate as 2500rpm moved you when stock, but once you get up into that higher rpm powerband....watch out .
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
with tuning taken into consideration, it would be very possible to add a mild heads/cam package that would yield better gas mileage,
No amount of tuning will change the fact that more horsepower requires more fuel. You're moving more air/fuel at all rpms, and your staying at higher rpms more often because that's where your stall will put you....right in your powerband. 
Tech Resident
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,117
Likes: 3
From: Philly
it's very possible to fab up heads that can increase mpg with the proper tune. it's the cam that kills mileage. as you said, most cams initiate their power much higher in rpms than the stock cam does. as long as you drive normally, your mileage shouldn't be killed. you definitely will be hurt by a cam, but if you stay out of it, it won't be as bad. i'm sure you drive your car hard. you have a cam, a what, 3600 stall i believe out of memory, true duals, and you get 15mpg if i remember correctly again. i'm sure i drive a lot easier than you and i'm sure i could still pull decent mileage with the proper tune - proper tune being key as i mentioned above and you even have it quoted. personally, i'd by a cam in the 114+ lsa too. i'm not into big clanking. that's a big reason why your gas mileage got sucked up. i know your cam is likely 110 - 112 lsa just from your crazy lopey idle.
so from all your mods, you lost 5mpg. okay. so say 3mpg is from the cam, 2 mpg is from the stall and all your other mods combined. okay, well 3mpg is a reasonable loss from gears. so the gears and cam should have a relatively similar mpg loss. with gears though, you gain 1-2 tenths. with a cam you could potentially gain half a second plus! now what is the better mod for the money? jesus, this is what i've been saying all along. gears is wasted money in this situation. go through my posts and see how many times i said other mods can yield better results for the money. that is my point. spend the money elsewhere. no one can read, i swear to god.
more horsepower doesn't necessarily require more fuel either. you can do mods that increase the motor's efficiency. LT's, exhaust work, a ram air, a lid without baffles ALL increase mileage and horsepower for the sole fact the motor is more efficient. heads can do this too. again, it's the cam that mixes the fuel and kills your mpg.
so from all your mods, you lost 5mpg. okay. so say 3mpg is from the cam, 2 mpg is from the stall and all your other mods combined. okay, well 3mpg is a reasonable loss from gears. so the gears and cam should have a relatively similar mpg loss. with gears though, you gain 1-2 tenths. with a cam you could potentially gain half a second plus! now what is the better mod for the money? jesus, this is what i've been saying all along. gears is wasted money in this situation. go through my posts and see how many times i said other mods can yield better results for the money. that is my point. spend the money elsewhere. no one can read, i swear to god.
more horsepower doesn't necessarily require more fuel either. you can do mods that increase the motor's efficiency. LT's, exhaust work, a ram air, a lid without baffles ALL increase mileage and horsepower for the sole fact the motor is more efficient. heads can do this too. again, it's the cam that mixes the fuel and kills your mpg.
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Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
so from all your mods, you lost 5mpg. okay. so say 3mpg is from the cam, 2 mpg is from the stall and all your other mods combined. okay, well 3mpg is a reasonable loss from gears. so the gears and cam should have a relatively similar mpg loss. with gears though, you gain 1-2 tenths. with a cam you could potentially gain half a second plus! now what is the better mod for the money? jesus, this is what i've been saying all along. gears is wasted money in this situation. go through my posts and see how many times i said other mods can yield better results for the money. that is my point. spend the money elsewhere. no one can read, i swear to god.
Better mod for the money?? You do know that a cam swap on a bolt-on a4 car done the right way can cost between $2000-3000 right? Let's be optimistic and say a 224/224 cam/supporting mods, converter and tune will give you a 1 second et drop, and you already have headers/exhaust and slicks on the car.
cam:$350
pushrods:$150
springs:$150
oil pump:$100 (optional)
pulley/belts:$200 (optional, but dumb not to since the stocker's comin off anyhow)
stall converter: $450-700, depending on manufacturer
tools, fluids, misc:$75-100 give or take
tune: $500
TOTAL: $1775-$2250
This is all assuming you're doing the install yourself. Since you're counting labor in the $500 price for a gear swap, we'll do the same here....that'll add $600-800 onto the bill (obviously subject to location) bringing it to $2675-$3000. I know a cam/converter swap can be done cheaper, but I can do a gear swap for less than $200 so we won't open that can of worms
. We'll round a lil and say $2800 for the final bill for all new parts installed. After it's done and we've gained our 1 second et improvement we've spent $280 per 1 tenth reduction in et. Let's once again be optimistic and say a gear swap from 2.73 to 3.73 will net you 2 tenths improvement in et and it costs us $500 for parts/install. Looks like $250 per 1 tenth reduction. Gears are not a bad mod nor a waste of money. I personally think 3.73's are an excellent ratio for a stalled ls1.
Guy that started this thread: If you're putting a big stall in your car, you apparently aren't worried too much about a small mileage decrease. Get the gears, you'll love em. Tenths add up one at a time.
[/my input]
Originally Posted by jmm98LS1
I read perfectly.
Better mod for the money?? You do know that a cam swap on a bolt-on a4 car done the right way can cost between $2000-3000 right? Let's be optimistic and say a 224/224 cam/supporting mods, converter and tune will give you a 1 second et drop, and you already have headers/exhaust and slicks on the car.
cam:$350
pushrods:$150
springs:$150
oil pump:$100 (optional)
pulley/belts:$200 (optional, but dumb not to since the stocker's comin off anyhow)
stall converter: $450-700, depending on manufacturer
tools, fluids, misc:$75-100 give or take
tune: $500
TOTAL: $1775-$2250
This is all assuming you're doing the install yourself. Since you're counting labor in the $500 price for a gear swap, we'll do the same here....that'll add $600-800 onto the bill (obviously subject to location) bringing it to $2675-$3000. I know a cam/converter swap can be done cheaper, but I can do a gear swap for less than $200 so we won't open that can of worms . We'll round a lil and say $2800 for the final bill for all new parts installed. After it's done and we've gained our 1 second et improvement we've spent $280 per 1 tenth reduction in et. Let's once again be optimistic and say a gear swap from 2.73 to 3.73 will net you 2 tenths improvement in et and it costs us $500 for parts/install. Looks like $250 per 1 tenth reduction.
Gears are not a bad mod nor a waste of money. I personally think 3.73's are an excellent ratio for a stalled ls1.
Guy that started this thread: If you're putting a big stall in your car, you apparently aren't worried too much about a small mileage decrease. Get the gears, you'll love em. Tenths add up one at a time.
[/my input]
Better mod for the money?? You do know that a cam swap on a bolt-on a4 car done the right way can cost between $2000-3000 right? Let's be optimistic and say a 224/224 cam/supporting mods, converter and tune will give you a 1 second et drop, and you already have headers/exhaust and slicks on the car.
cam:$350
pushrods:$150
springs:$150
oil pump:$100 (optional)
pulley/belts:$200 (optional, but dumb not to since the stocker's comin off anyhow)
stall converter: $450-700, depending on manufacturer
tools, fluids, misc:$75-100 give or take
tune: $500
TOTAL: $1775-$2250
This is all assuming you're doing the install yourself. Since you're counting labor in the $500 price for a gear swap, we'll do the same here....that'll add $600-800 onto the bill (obviously subject to location) bringing it to $2675-$3000. I know a cam/converter swap can be done cheaper, but I can do a gear swap for less than $200 so we won't open that can of worms
. We'll round a lil and say $2800 for the final bill for all new parts installed. After it's done and we've gained our 1 second et improvement we've spent $280 per 1 tenth reduction in et. Let's once again be optimistic and say a gear swap from 2.73 to 3.73 will net you 2 tenths improvement in et and it costs us $500 for parts/install. Looks like $250 per 1 tenth reduction. Gears are not a bad mod nor a waste of money. I personally think 3.73's are an excellent ratio for a stalled ls1.
Guy that started this thread: If you're putting a big stall in your car, you apparently aren't worried too much about a small mileage decrease. Get the gears, you'll love em. Tenths add up one at a time.
[/my input]
Originally Posted by jmm98LS1
I read perfectly.
Better mod for the money?? You do know that a cam swap on a bolt-on a4 car done the right way can cost between $2000-3000 right? Let's be optimistic and say a 224/224 cam/supporting mods, converter and tune will give you a 1 second et drop, and you already have headers/exhaust and slicks on the car.
cam:$350
pushrods:$150
springs:$150
oil pump:$100 (optional)
pulley/belts:$200 (optional, but dumb not to since the stocker's comin off anyhow)
stall converter: $450-700, depending on manufacturer
tools, fluids, misc:$75-100 give or take
tune: $500
TOTAL: $1775-$2250
This is all assuming you're doing the install yourself. Since you're counting labor in the $500 price for a gear swap, we'll do the same here....that'll add $600-800 onto the bill (obviously subject to location) bringing it to $2675-$3000. I know a cam/converter swap can be done cheaper, but I can do a gear swap for less than $200 so we won't open that can of worms . We'll round a lil and say $2800 for the final bill for all new parts installed. After it's done and we've gained our 1 second et improvement we've spent $280 per 1 tenth reduction in et. Let's once again be optimistic and say a gear swap from 2.73 to 3.73 will net you 2 tenths improvement in et and it costs us $500 for parts/install. Looks like $250 per 1 tenth reduction.
Gears are not a bad mod nor a waste of money. I personally think 3.73's are an excellent ratio for a stalled ls1.
Guy that started this thread: If you're putting a big stall in your car, you apparently aren't worried too much about a small mileage decrease. Get the gears, you'll love em. Tenths add up one at a time.
[/my input]
Better mod for the money?? You do know that a cam swap on a bolt-on a4 car done the right way can cost between $2000-3000 right? Let's be optimistic and say a 224/224 cam/supporting mods, converter and tune will give you a 1 second et drop, and you already have headers/exhaust and slicks on the car.
cam:$350
pushrods:$150
springs:$150
oil pump:$100 (optional)
pulley/belts:$200 (optional, but dumb not to since the stocker's comin off anyhow)
stall converter: $450-700, depending on manufacturer
tools, fluids, misc:$75-100 give or take
tune: $500
TOTAL: $1775-$2250
This is all assuming you're doing the install yourself. Since you're counting labor in the $500 price for a gear swap, we'll do the same here....that'll add $600-800 onto the bill (obviously subject to location) bringing it to $2675-$3000. I know a cam/converter swap can be done cheaper, but I can do a gear swap for less than $200 so we won't open that can of worms
. We'll round a lil and say $2800 for the final bill for all new parts installed. After it's done and we've gained our 1 second et improvement we've spent $280 per 1 tenth reduction in et. Let's once again be optimistic and say a gear swap from 2.73 to 3.73 will net you 2 tenths improvement in et and it costs us $500 for parts/install. Looks like $250 per 1 tenth reduction. Gears are not a bad mod nor a waste of money. I personally think 3.73's are an excellent ratio for a stalled ls1.
Guy that started this thread: If you're putting a big stall in your car, you apparently aren't worried too much about a small mileage decrease. Get the gears, you'll love em. Tenths add up one at a time.
[/my input]
i agree with the above post, but refuse to quote the entire thing. some of the parts' prices are a little stingy, and you left out ONE of the biggest factors in getting a stalled automatic to ET - T I R E S.
add on $350 for a good set of m/t drag radials (to my door) that will mount on your stock 16" rims. i just got mine saturday and all i can say is wow.
add on $350 for a good set of m/t drag radials (to my door) that will mount on your stock 16" rims. i just got mine saturday and all i can say is wow.
Originally Posted by s346k
add on $350 for a good set of m/t drag radials (to my door) that will mount on your stock 16" rims. i just got mine saturday and all i can say is wow.
Originally Posted by Roarin_8
I believe that Tire rack has free shipping if the tires are in stock.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,216
Likes: 236
From: Wichita KS / Rancho San Diego
Originally Posted by s346k
i agree with the above post, but refuse to quote the entire thing. some of the parts' prices are a little stingy, and you left out ONE of the biggest factors in getting a stalled automatic to ET - T I R E S. Add on $350 for a good set of m/t drag radials (to my door) that will mount on your stock 16" rims. i just got mine saturday and all i can say is wow.
