TCI converters exposed!
09-07-2002, 03:17 PM
#21
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Re: TCI converters exposed! Kevin thanks for visiting my web page. I am glad you enjoyed the stories. Kevin, yes I am on Yanks web site. You seem to suggest that, that is a bad thing. I am/have also been featured on MTI's, IRS's, FLP's etc. web sites as a user of their products. So I should never have an opinion of their or their competitions products?
Sorry man, all I did was post the pics of the inside on one of your verters. I think the pics speak for themselves.
Why have I chosen to "expose" TCI verters? Because I feel they are being marketed as a quality, high performance piece of hardware full of quality parts. From what I have seen that could not be further from the truth.
From the sloppy welds, to the reused 2nd hand parts to the cheap choice of hardware/materials I feel people are being mislead into thinking they are buying a Vigilante or a Yank (quality) just at a cheaper price. This is simply not true.
I sent a query to Mike at Yank with your response to my web page. Below is his reply in its entirety.
In Response to your E-mail:
(Raugh) you’re a great investigator. Great photos with incite into TCI and Yank 3000 LSI Converters. Most all your info is correct as to your description but, I wish you could have checked the run outs. It’s been our observation that most TCI’s are on the high side from .015 to .028 and we keep ours at a max of.005. This would be good info on future comparisons, if you live through this one.
But here we go:
Answer to Kevin Winstead- Response Item#3 I believe that the Hubs I have seen from TCI including the new 3500 LSI I have in our shop at this time are resanded from the original finish with 220 Grit sandpaper to polish off tool marks incurred during manufacture at TCI. We at Yank roller burnish our hubs. This puts an OEM finish on Hubs and reduces seal line and bushing wear.
Item 7&8 Knife-edge blades are more efficient in slicing thru the oil at higher RPM’s than flat tipped blades. This shows up in our testing. We have them available and pass this on to our customers as just one of our many available features. They just work better.
Item#13&31-35
Kevin keeps talking about a Northstar Cadillac converter being compared to his unit, why? This is not the 10- ½” 265mm core he talks about and gives reference to in his comparison data. This is a 258mm 10” converter that has never been used in any Cadillac to date. His mention of the 245mm sprag assembly is also wrong. Kevin should know that he uses a roller clutch, not a sprag (which is a dog bone type of holding device).
700ft.lbs. is a good number? 355ftlbs-ls1 multiplied by 2.0str = 710ft.lbs!
We at Yank go by 425ft.lbs multiplied by 3.0str for our testing. This equals 1275ft.lbs. Evidently ours is just stronger!!!
Item#14
The smooth back design of the turbine with knife edge blades will spin thru oil much easier than a toy tab design with flat blades. As oil flows over the shell, it is less turbulent. This will cause less aeration of your oil and run cooler at stall or shift extension. This is a better design.
Item#18
As to the damper used by TCI, we chose not to use that damper with its spring rating. The damper will collapse at 200 ft. lbs. Over that point the spring will bottom out in the housing and can explode. This happens as the housing will start to deform, loosening the rivets, causing the assembly to come apart. So they then added some tact welds to slow down this failure.
Our damper is explosion proof as there are no parts to be released because they are in a sealed housing which as been developed to work with our billet covers.
Kevin makes mention to our clutch material being narrow, but seems to forget that our diameter is much larger than theirs, and a larger torque radius on the friction material equals more holding power. A thinner band of material also equals more PSI at the clutch surface. The wider material, as in the TCI converter, equals less PSI at the clutch footprint and that equals more slip. This will save the weak clutch assembly from potential breakage.
Item#22
As to his comments on mounting ring
John you are correct! When you spread torque over 3 points on a thin stamp cover you will get deflection at all 3 points. It is a matter of time when this will fail. Welding heat and material composition is important in this area. I have seen many of these failures.
A billet design is stronger as the load is spread over the entire housing, not just the three lugs. Also the clutch surface will distort by the defection and will cause high spots inside the clutch cover, leading to increased slippage and clutch failure.
Item#7, 8, 14, 37
John, In regard to furnace brazing your observation is also correct. Notice the color of our part, nice clean steel with bright brazing. The TCI parts are black and dull. This is from their brazing process allowing oxygen into their environment. The oxygen causes oxidation on the steel parts. The parts also will have a scale on the surface which can come off and clog transmission filters and “stick” sensitive electronic solenoids used on 4l60E transmissions. We take no chances in this area and spare no expense on our brazing. This is a very important step in the manufacturing process. Yes, TCI brazing will hold up in TH400 or TH350 type non electronic transmissions but, in 4L60E’s it is not worth taking the risk. It’s just not good quality.
John, make note that Kevin said there is little stall range in our converter size. This is also not true. The parts are also used in our y2800, y3000, y3200, sy3500, sy4000, py3400, py3600, py3800, and more.
I believe that the efficiency of these converters stands up to anyone else’s and will be hard to beat.
Please also note that I have had the opportunity to repair and rebuild TCI’s converters over the past ten years and in the past five years have had close to 100 in our shop. This converter you have shown is very representative of their product.
But remember as Kevin said, you are looking at a y3000 $750.00 converter to a TCI3000 $450.00 converter.
You have to remember that in the rules of business, you get what you pay for. You can only price your product as to its market value and expected performance potential.
After looking at your photos I now feel that we might be under priced or TCI is overpriced. Also tell Kevin that in the last two years we have sold just at 1,100 LSI converters, and we feel that speaks very highly of our customers knowledge of: "You get what you pay for."
Thanks, Mike at Yank
<small>[ September 07, 2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Raughammer ]</small>
Sorry man, all I did was post the pics of the inside on one of your verters. I think the pics speak for themselves.
Why have I chosen to "expose" TCI verters? Because I feel they are being marketed as a quality, high performance piece of hardware full of quality parts. From what I have seen that could not be further from the truth.
From the sloppy welds, to the reused 2nd hand parts to the cheap choice of hardware/materials I feel people are being mislead into thinking they are buying a Vigilante or a Yank (quality) just at a cheaper price. This is simply not true.
I sent a query to Mike at Yank with your response to my web page. Below is his reply in its entirety.
In Response to your E-mail:
(Raugh) you’re a great investigator. Great photos with incite into TCI and Yank 3000 LSI Converters. Most all your info is correct as to your description but, I wish you could have checked the run outs. It’s been our observation that most TCI’s are on the high side from .015 to .028 and we keep ours at a max of.005. This would be good info on future comparisons, if you live through this one.
But here we go:
Answer to Kevin Winstead- Response Item#3 I believe that the Hubs I have seen from TCI including the new 3500 LSI I have in our shop at this time are resanded from the original finish with 220 Grit sandpaper to polish off tool marks incurred during manufacture at TCI. We at Yank roller burnish our hubs. This puts an OEM finish on Hubs and reduces seal line and bushing wear.
Item 7&8 Knife-edge blades are more efficient in slicing thru the oil at higher RPM’s than flat tipped blades. This shows up in our testing. We have them available and pass this on to our customers as just one of our many available features. They just work better.
Item#13&31-35
Kevin keeps talking about a Northstar Cadillac converter being compared to his unit, why? This is not the 10- ½” 265mm core he talks about and gives reference to in his comparison data. This is a 258mm 10” converter that has never been used in any Cadillac to date. His mention of the 245mm sprag assembly is also wrong. Kevin should know that he uses a roller clutch, not a sprag (which is a dog bone type of holding device).
700ft.lbs. is a good number? 355ftlbs-ls1 multiplied by 2.0str = 710ft.lbs!
We at Yank go by 425ft.lbs multiplied by 3.0str for our testing. This equals 1275ft.lbs. Evidently ours is just stronger!!!
Item#14
The smooth back design of the turbine with knife edge blades will spin thru oil much easier than a toy tab design with flat blades. As oil flows over the shell, it is less turbulent. This will cause less aeration of your oil and run cooler at stall or shift extension. This is a better design.
Item#18
As to the damper used by TCI, we chose not to use that damper with its spring rating. The damper will collapse at 200 ft. lbs. Over that point the spring will bottom out in the housing and can explode. This happens as the housing will start to deform, loosening the rivets, causing the assembly to come apart. So they then added some tact welds to slow down this failure.
Our damper is explosion proof as there are no parts to be released because they are in a sealed housing which as been developed to work with our billet covers.
Kevin makes mention to our clutch material being narrow, but seems to forget that our diameter is much larger than theirs, and a larger torque radius on the friction material equals more holding power. A thinner band of material also equals more PSI at the clutch surface. The wider material, as in the TCI converter, equals less PSI at the clutch footprint and that equals more slip. This will save the weak clutch assembly from potential breakage.
Item#22
As to his comments on mounting ring
John you are correct! When you spread torque over 3 points on a thin stamp cover you will get deflection at all 3 points. It is a matter of time when this will fail. Welding heat and material composition is important in this area. I have seen many of these failures.
A billet design is stronger as the load is spread over the entire housing, not just the three lugs. Also the clutch surface will distort by the defection and will cause high spots inside the clutch cover, leading to increased slippage and clutch failure.
Item#7, 8, 14, 37
John, In regard to furnace brazing your observation is also correct. Notice the color of our part, nice clean steel with bright brazing. The TCI parts are black and dull. This is from their brazing process allowing oxygen into their environment. The oxygen causes oxidation on the steel parts. The parts also will have a scale on the surface which can come off and clog transmission filters and “stick” sensitive electronic solenoids used on 4l60E transmissions. We take no chances in this area and spare no expense on our brazing. This is a very important step in the manufacturing process. Yes, TCI brazing will hold up in TH400 or TH350 type non electronic transmissions but, in 4L60E’s it is not worth taking the risk. It’s just not good quality.
John, make note that Kevin said there is little stall range in our converter size. This is also not true. The parts are also used in our y2800, y3000, y3200, sy3500, sy4000, py3400, py3600, py3800, and more.
I believe that the efficiency of these converters stands up to anyone else’s and will be hard to beat.
Please also note that I have had the opportunity to repair and rebuild TCI’s converters over the past ten years and in the past five years have had close to 100 in our shop. This converter you have shown is very representative of their product.
But remember as Kevin said, you are looking at a y3000 $750.00 converter to a TCI3000 $450.00 converter.
You have to remember that in the rules of business, you get what you pay for. You can only price your product as to its market value and expected performance potential.
After looking at your photos I now feel that we might be under priced or TCI is overpriced. Also tell Kevin that in the last two years we have sold just at 1,100 LSI converters, and we feel that speaks very highly of our customers knowledge of: "You get what you pay for."
Thanks, Mike at Yank
<small>[ September 07, 2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Raughammer ]</small>
09-07-2002, 07:02 PM
#22
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Re: TCI converters exposed! bottom line is that yank has proven their times! I have yet to see a tci perform like that.
I will be ordering a yank converter for my th400 install. I talked to mike last week to order a speed sensor and he is a VERY nice and informative guy! And HE SHIPS FAST!
hey raughammer,
think there is room under your car on mti's site for mine? haha
I will be ordering a yank converter for my th400 install. I talked to mike last week to order a speed sensor and he is a VERY nice and informative guy! And HE SHIPS FAST!
hey raughammer,
think there is room under your car on mti's site for mine? haha
09-08-2002, 09:39 AM
#23
Re: TCI converters exposed! Okay, unbiased 6-speed owner has infiltrated this converter thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
I don't know crap about converters, but I'm starting to pay attention (just in case I go TH350 later). Thanks for the photos John, I never knew they were that complicated internally. I may not know anything about converters, but being an Engineer I do know what looks good as far as design and quality. I gotta admit that those Yank vs TCI photos were very clear about which product is better. This coming from a guy that figured all converters were the same inside. Guess not!
I'll let you slushbox non-drivers get back to your biz now, hahaha.
-Tony <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
I don't know crap about converters, but I'm starting to pay attention (just in case I go TH350 later). Thanks for the photos John, I never knew they were that complicated internally. I may not know anything about converters, but being an Engineer I do know what looks good as far as design and quality. I gotta admit that those Yank vs TCI photos were very clear about which product is better. This coming from a guy that figured all converters were the same inside. Guess not!
I'll let you slushbox non-drivers get back to your biz now, hahaha.
-Tony <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
09-08-2002, 10:06 AM
#24
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Re: TCI converters exposed! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Answer to Kevin Winstead- Response Item#3 I believe that the Hubs I have seen from TCI including the new 3500 LSI I have in our shop at this time are resanded from the original finish with 220 Grit sandpaper to polish off tool marks incurred during manufacture at TCI.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Damn ,Mike is GOOD!!!!!! He can actually tell which grit sandpaper someone used by looking at the part sanded.
Tim(has an ATI convertor and tranny)
Tim(has an ATI convertor and tranny)
09-09-2002, 01:01 PM
#25
Re: TCI converters exposed! Why is there so much bashing going on lately? I didn't see anyone tear up at ST and "expose" it when 100s of people had problems and were screwed out of a warranty. I didn't see the ST "exposed" and compared to PI. But it's ok to bash some other ones? And it came at a time when TCI started to get more and more business. Weird coincedence. And the test was done by someone who doesn't make converters for living nor has a engineering degree(or am I wrong on this part, please correct me). And why was TCI compared to a Yank converter that noone uses?
Sometimes greed get's in a way of good will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Will someone reliable that's not sponsored or getting free products test Yank vs PI vs TCI so all this pointless arguing can stop?
Sometimes greed get's in a way of good will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Will someone reliable that's not sponsored or getting free products test Yank vs PI vs TCI so all this pointless arguing can stop?
09-09-2002, 02:29 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed! First let me say I’ve run ST3800 and PT4400 Yank converters, and I believe they are better than anything TCI can offer me, but let's compare apples to apples though OK?
The TCI 3000 is cheaper than the Yank 3000. It probably delivers the same performance. None of the quick guys are running either converter so that argument is moot.
I reviewed the photos of the TCI converter, and although I'm not a ME (BSCS, almost a minor in physics), the TCI converter looked more than adequate to me. Who cares if the inside is scratched? How do we know John didn't make the scratches while he was taking it apart? Who cares if they use spot welds instead of a seam weld in non-critical areas? Reading through the entire webpage I was thinking to myself what a bunch of fluff BS against the TCI.
Just thought I'd share my thoughts. I still believe that Yank produces a better race converter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
The TCI 3000 is cheaper than the Yank 3000. It probably delivers the same performance. None of the quick guys are running either converter so that argument is moot.
I reviewed the photos of the TCI converter, and although I'm not a ME (BSCS, almost a minor in physics), the TCI converter looked more than adequate to me. Who cares if the inside is scratched? How do we know John didn't make the scratches while he was taking it apart? Who cares if they use spot welds instead of a seam weld in non-critical areas? Reading through the entire webpage I was thinking to myself what a bunch of fluff BS against the TCI.
Just thought I'd share my thoughts. I still believe that Yank produces a better race converter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
09-09-2002, 02:37 PM
#27
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Re: TCI converters exposed! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99BlueZ28:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mmiller:
<strong>
Notice the number of cars with Yank converters. Very few Vigilante verters and NO TCI verters. This chart speaks pretty much puts to rest any argument about who makes the best converter for the LS1's.
http://xs-fx.com/list/ls1tech_list.php</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Note also that the converter alone is not responsible for making these cars so quick. Mucho $$$ has been thrown into these cars. Ya can't just put a PT4400 and a set of slicks on a LS1 powered vehicle and run 9s. Speed can be achieved with money and the converter is only 1 part of the puzzle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh brother! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Do I have to spell out everything done to each individual car to make my point? Maybe for you I do. <img border="0" alt="[Banging Head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />
Of course the other mods done to the cars affects their performance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> The point I'm trying to make is look at the 60 ft. times the Yank convertered cars are cutting. Pretty impressive. Where are the competition's converters at with their times?
Yank dominates, until I see otherwise.
<img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" />
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mmiller:
<strong>
Notice the number of cars with Yank converters. Very few Vigilante verters and NO TCI verters. This chart speaks pretty much puts to rest any argument about who makes the best converter for the LS1's.
http://xs-fx.com/list/ls1tech_list.php</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Note also that the converter alone is not responsible for making these cars so quick. Mucho $$$ has been thrown into these cars. Ya can't just put a PT4400 and a set of slicks on a LS1 powered vehicle and run 9s. Speed can be achieved with money and the converter is only 1 part of the puzzle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh brother! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Do I have to spell out everything done to each individual car to make my point? Maybe for you I do. <img border="0" alt="[Banging Head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />
Of course the other mods done to the cars affects their performance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> The point I'm trying to make is look at the 60 ft. times the Yank convertered cars are cutting. Pretty impressive. Where are the competition's converters at with their times?
Yank dominates, until I see otherwise.
<img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" />
09-09-2002, 04:30 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dom:
<strong>Why is there so much bashing going on lately? I didn't see anyone tear up at ST and "expose" it when 100s of people had problems and were screwed out of a warranty. I didn't see the ST "exposed" and compared to PI. But it's ok to bash some other ones? And it came at a time when TCI started to get more and more business. Weird coincedence. And the test was done by someone who doesn't make converters for living nor has a engineering degree(or am I wrong on this part, please correct me). And why was TCI compared to a Yank converter that noone uses?
Sometimes greed get's in a way of good will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Will someone reliable that's not sponsored or getting free products test Yank vs PI vs TCI so all this pointless arguing can stop?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">speculate what you guys want about the reasons for this comparison. Look at the pictures, based on the pictures what converter do you want?
Who cares about someone's feelings or pride. This is business. We keep moving forward as a society and powerful nation by promoting quality in our products and services. Do you think scratches, poor machineing and dull blades affect the flow of fluids spinning at thousands of rpm in a 2xxmm diameter TC? It doesn't take a physics professor to explain why well designed internals will produce better results, although the difference may not be great enough for people to spend $300+ more for the Yank.
I think everyone should have the full truth before deciding and I think John did a us all a favor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Thanks John.
<strong>Why is there so much bashing going on lately? I didn't see anyone tear up at ST and "expose" it when 100s of people had problems and were screwed out of a warranty. I didn't see the ST "exposed" and compared to PI. But it's ok to bash some other ones? And it came at a time when TCI started to get more and more business. Weird coincedence. And the test was done by someone who doesn't make converters for living nor has a engineering degree(or am I wrong on this part, please correct me). And why was TCI compared to a Yank converter that noone uses?
Sometimes greed get's in a way of good will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
Will someone reliable that's not sponsored or getting free products test Yank vs PI vs TCI so all this pointless arguing can stop?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">speculate what you guys want about the reasons for this comparison. Look at the pictures, based on the pictures what converter do you want?
Who cares about someone's feelings or pride. This is business. We keep moving forward as a society and powerful nation by promoting quality in our products and services. Do you think scratches, poor machineing and dull blades affect the flow of fluids spinning at thousands of rpm in a 2xxmm diameter TC? It doesn't take a physics professor to explain why well designed internals will produce better results, although the difference may not be great enough for people to spend $300+ more for the Yank.
I think everyone should have the full truth before deciding and I think John did a us all a favor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Thanks John.
09-09-2002, 08:32 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed! I think you got picture number 12 backwards because on the rest of the pics where you can see those parts, yank is listed as the one tci is listed as in that pic
09-09-2002, 08:47 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed! i got 10,000 miles on my tci 3500 stall and i drive it 100 miles a day to work and back and race it on weekends it putting my stock ta convert. in the 7.50's! nice piece!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />
09-10-2002, 07:57 AM
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Re: TCI converters exposed! If Yank has "superior" internal parts, why does he have hundreds of ex-customers out there with ST3500's in which the converter clutch lining came apart? Why did he refuse to warranty ANY of these converters, instead blaming it on the customers mods? According to Mike, even if you ran other-than-stock tires, you caused your torque converter to fail, not his faulty design. Sooo...Why, after TCI tested various clutch linings and discovered that carbon fiber was the best, longest lasting, most durable TC clutch lining for LS1 converters, did Mike switch to carbon fiber clutch linings in the ST3500 converter? He said there was absolutely nothing wrong with the ST3500 beforehand, so why switch to a more expensive clutch lining without raising the price of the converter? Seems to me like he was admitting a problem but don't be mistaken, he still had NO intentions of standing behind any of the FAULTY products he KNOWINGLY sold to the LS1 community...
So I don't care how many reasons you can give me that the TCI converters SHOULD fail and the Yanks SHOULD last, the fact is, that's just not the case and to top it off, when your Yank converter DOES fail, you will be blamed, and you will be stuck with a broken converter and a transmission rebuild while Mike tells you that the position of the 3rd moon of Jupiter caused your problem and you should have known better than to drive it that day. Give me TCI any day, like the above poster, we've seen them go 10,000+ miles so far with no problems and we've seen TCI bend over backwards to be sure their customers are COMPLETELY satisfied, and we've been VERY happy with the performance of our SF3500, which directly compares to that of my Yank ST3500.
So I don't care how many reasons you can give me that the TCI converters SHOULD fail and the Yanks SHOULD last, the fact is, that's just not the case and to top it off, when your Yank converter DOES fail, you will be blamed, and you will be stuck with a broken converter and a transmission rebuild while Mike tells you that the position of the 3rd moon of Jupiter caused your problem and you should have known better than to drive it that day. Give me TCI any day, like the above poster, we've seen them go 10,000+ miles so far with no problems and we've seen TCI bend over backwards to be sure their customers are COMPLETELY satisfied, and we've been VERY happy with the performance of our SF3500, which directly compares to that of my Yank ST3500.
09-10-2002, 10:27 AM
#32
Re: TCI converters exposed! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>If Yank has "superior" internal parts, why does he have hundreds of ex-customers out there with ST3500's in which the converter clutch lining came apart? Why did he refuse to warranty ANY of these converters, instead blaming it on the customers mods?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am aware of complaints that people had with the ST 3500 clutches chattering. Chatter, while annoying, is not the same as a failure like what you are describing. The failure you describe would render lock-up impossible and probably result in other tranny issues.
I have yet to see anyone (other than you) claim the lining came apart. Do you have any proof of this alleged mass failure such as cut open converters lying around, the bad clutch plates or the failed clutches that can be examined?
I know you had a bad experience with Yank and you can post about it. However, when you post here and claim that there are hundreds of others with serious failures, you need to have solid proof, whether it is a sponsor product or not.
<strong>If Yank has "superior" internal parts, why does he have hundreds of ex-customers out there with ST3500's in which the converter clutch lining came apart? Why did he refuse to warranty ANY of these converters, instead blaming it on the customers mods?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am aware of complaints that people had with the ST 3500 clutches chattering. Chatter, while annoying, is not the same as a failure like what you are describing. The failure you describe would render lock-up impossible and probably result in other tranny issues.
I have yet to see anyone (other than you) claim the lining came apart. Do you have any proof of this alleged mass failure such as cut open converters lying around, the bad clutch plates or the failed clutches that can be examined?
I know you had a bad experience with Yank and you can post about it. However, when you post here and claim that there are hundreds of others with serious failures, you need to have solid proof, whether it is a sponsor product or not.
09-10-2002, 10:43 AM
#33
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Re: TCI converters exposed! basicly someone got bored and said, "lets rip that ****** apart and see".....now you have a marketing theme, i say have and independent source test and evaluate the product, i personally have a midwest converter and the first one to rip that apart might say the same things as about TCI but the fact of the matter is, with my midwest 3000 i kill vig2800 and 3200 users. can some one explain to me why ls1 verters are so dam expensive, not from midwest or TCI but others sell for 500-800 bux, just like ls1 edit, monoply, but not now as more competitors offer a good product the price drops, mark my words, the same issue will come out when there is an alternitive to Edit. bottom line who cares, folks are gonna buy what is best for them, money and performance wise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
<small>[ September 10, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Grinch ]</small>
<small>[ September 10, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Grinch ]</small>
09-10-2002, 01:02 PM
#34
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Re: TCI converters exposed! Keep in mind that lockup converters cost more than nonlockup.
Some of the mild converters out there have very little done to them, and so are cheaper.
Some converter are pricey because all of the internals and the CORE are brand new.
I had one of the first MW 3200 converters out there a few years ago and it was solid but Dennis at MW at that time had poor customer service and that's why they fell out of favor...
Some of the mild converters out there have very little done to them, and so are cheaper.
Some converter are pricey because all of the internals and the CORE are brand new.
I had one of the first MW 3200 converters out there a few years ago and it was solid but Dennis at MW at that time had poor customer service and that's why they fell out of favor...
09-10-2002, 02:08 PM
#35
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Re: TCI converters exposed! Ragtop-
Yes, I did have my Yank converter cut open, and while I'm sure I don't know more about Yank converters than you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> the shop that cut it open said that the converter was full of clutch material, as was the transmission that I had to have rebuilt (pump-back) following my converter clutch "chatter" problem. In my case, I consider this clutch "chatter" to be damaging. Why don't TCI's, PI's, Midwests, or any other brand "chatter" if this is a perfectly normal thing for torque converters to do? Why did my transmission guy tell me to immediately stop driving the car when I explained the problem? Apparently, this is not something that anyone finds to be normal or safe, except for (surprise surprise) Mike Senia and his cheerleaders. Now, my repairs were done by professionals who see this sort of thing all the time and they both used the term "excessive" when describing the amount of material they found in the converter and transmission. They said that components of both were damaged AS A RESULT of the clutch lining "coming apart". That's enough "proof" for me. I probably have seen, heard, of, and read over 100 of the same type of instances. Not all of them wasted time and money having their converters cut open and inspected, but they had the same noises and the same problems out of the SAME converter. Coincidence, I'm sure <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" />
And again, if the clutch linings on Yank's ST3500 converters was so perfectly adequate in the first place, why did he recently change? Why is that Yank will not honor it's "warranty" on any converter that is run in a car with aftermarket mods and PI will, TCI will, and the other companies will. Yank did NOT have a disclaimer or a warning on its website stating that their converters would begin to chatter if they were installed in a car with MAF ends, other than stock tires, aftermarket exhaust, etc, yet Mike gave ALL of these as reasons that he would not even consider repairing or replacing my converter under warranty. This is the same thing he told God knows how many other people.
It says something to me that when I began discussing my ST3500 problems with a few VERY respected long-time members of this forum, they told me WORD FOR WORD what Mike's excuses would be. Heck, they even had his tone of voice down pat. That scared me off the bat and sure enough, they were dead on. If I hadn't been out $700+ shipping, I'd have found it hilarious.... same excuses for the same problems with the same converter over and over.... but it's all my fault <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Yes, I did have my Yank converter cut open, and while I'm sure I don't know more about Yank converters than you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> the shop that cut it open said that the converter was full of clutch material, as was the transmission that I had to have rebuilt (pump-back) following my converter clutch "chatter" problem. In my case, I consider this clutch "chatter" to be damaging. Why don't TCI's, PI's, Midwests, or any other brand "chatter" if this is a perfectly normal thing for torque converters to do? Why did my transmission guy tell me to immediately stop driving the car when I explained the problem? Apparently, this is not something that anyone finds to be normal or safe, except for (surprise surprise) Mike Senia and his cheerleaders. Now, my repairs were done by professionals who see this sort of thing all the time and they both used the term "excessive" when describing the amount of material they found in the converter and transmission. They said that components of both were damaged AS A RESULT of the clutch lining "coming apart". That's enough "proof" for me. I probably have seen, heard, of, and read over 100 of the same type of instances. Not all of them wasted time and money having their converters cut open and inspected, but they had the same noises and the same problems out of the SAME converter. Coincidence, I'm sure <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" />
And again, if the clutch linings on Yank's ST3500 converters was so perfectly adequate in the first place, why did he recently change? Why is that Yank will not honor it's "warranty" on any converter that is run in a car with aftermarket mods and PI will, TCI will, and the other companies will. Yank did NOT have a disclaimer or a warning on its website stating that their converters would begin to chatter if they were installed in a car with MAF ends, other than stock tires, aftermarket exhaust, etc, yet Mike gave ALL of these as reasons that he would not even consider repairing or replacing my converter under warranty. This is the same thing he told God knows how many other people.
It says something to me that when I began discussing my ST3500 problems with a few VERY respected long-time members of this forum, they told me WORD FOR WORD what Mike's excuses would be. Heck, they even had his tone of voice down pat. That scared me off the bat and sure enough, they were dead on. If I hadn't been out $700+ shipping, I'd have found it hilarious.... same excuses for the same problems with the same converter over and over.... but it's all my fault <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
09-10-2002, 09:15 PM
#36
Re: TCI converters exposed! This is the 2nd no 3rd on 4th time tci gets bashed. I gained 5 tenths from my tci converter and for 450.00 ill take it.Keep your 6 7 8 hundred dollar converters and your mouths shut. Ill race any 273 geared car with similar bolt ons on the street anytime against any vig or yank in the same stall range just bring it dont sing it .
09-10-2002, 10:14 PM
#37
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Re: TCI converters exposed! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by boomcase:
<strong>This is the 2nd no 3rd on 4th time tci gets bashed. I gained 5 tenths from my tci converter and for 450.00 ill take it.Keep your 6 7 8 hundred dollar converters and your mouths shut. Ill race any 273 geared car with similar bolt ons on the street anytime against any vig or yank in the same stall range just bring it dont sing it .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I shaved off almost .7 off of my ET with my Yank ST-3500. Its too bad you're in Connecticut. I'd love to "bring it" and race you. I think you need a little taste of humble pie. TCI converters ain't gonna cut it against Yank. Thats a fact! <img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" />
<strong>This is the 2nd no 3rd on 4th time tci gets bashed. I gained 5 tenths from my tci converter and for 450.00 ill take it.Keep your 6 7 8 hundred dollar converters and your mouths shut. Ill race any 273 geared car with similar bolt ons on the street anytime against any vig or yank in the same stall range just bring it dont sing it .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I shaved off almost .7 off of my ET with my Yank ST-3500. Its too bad you're in Connecticut. I'd love to "bring it" and race you. I think you need a little taste of humble pie. TCI converters ain't gonna cut it against Yank. Thats a fact! <img border="0" alt="[judgement]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" />
09-10-2002, 11:11 PM
#38
Re: TCI converters exposed! Kristi, what you say about the other converter brands not having clutch chatter problems is just flat wrong. Do a search. You'll see. I used to think the same thing, but I have seen people here and on other boards have the same problems with PI's and TCI's. I have yet to see the chatter problems with Midwest, but I don't see the performance gains with those converters either. I know someone with a Midwest 3500 that cuts 2.0 60's and can't run lower than 13 flat when his car should be in the 12's easily with his mods. And I'm someone who had horible chatter problems with a ST3500 and the same converter after I had it upgraded to a ST3800. I also have a ST3500 in my other LS1 car that has no problems at all. It still amazes me that some Yanks are trouble free and others have the chatter problem. I have also had both great customer service, and bad customer service from Yank. I got a personal call from Mike when I didn't expect one, and never got a call returned when I was told I would get one. I'm also now using a PYE 3600 that is trouble free in the same car that had chatter problems with the ST's
09-10-2002, 11:31 PM
#39
Re: TCI converters exposed! So basically, no company is perfect and you get what you pay for. Yank is more expensive but uses all new parts, it doesn't take a engineer to see the design is better (I bet PI is similar to Yank in quality). But with TCI you save money. They're just adequate for stock power, good for the not-so-serious, not gotta have maxium gains modder.
Or am I wrong?
Or am I wrong?
09-11-2002, 12:29 AM
#40
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Re: TCI converters exposed! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Grinch:
<strong>basicly someone got bored and said, "lets rip that ****** apart and see".....now you have a marketing theme, i say have and independent source test and evaluate the product, i personally have a midwest converter and the first one to rip that apart might say the same things as about TCI but the fact of the matter is, with my midwest 3000 i kill vig2800 and 3200 users. can some one explain to me why ls1 verters are so dam expensive, not from midwest or TCI but others sell for 500-800 bux, just like ls1 edit, monoply, but not now as more competitors offer a good product the price drops, mark my words, the same issue will come out when there is an alternitive to Edit. bottom line who cares, folks are gonna buy what is best for them, money and performance wise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What was your 60' with that midwest converter? What mods do you have?
<strong>basicly someone got bored and said, "lets rip that ****** apart and see".....now you have a marketing theme, i say have and independent source test and evaluate the product, i personally have a midwest converter and the first one to rip that apart might say the same things as about TCI but the fact of the matter is, with my midwest 3000 i kill vig2800 and 3200 users. can some one explain to me why ls1 verters are so dam expensive, not from midwest or TCI but others sell for 500-800 bux, just like ls1 edit, monoply, but not now as more competitors offer a good product the price drops, mark my words, the same issue will come out when there is an alternitive to Edit. bottom line who cares, folks are gonna buy what is best for them, money and performance wise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What was your 60' with that midwest converter? What mods do you have?