Raughammer

After some of the posts folks are making in this forum and some of the less than glowing reports, I decided to post the pics of a tear down comparison of two manufacturers converters.

Click on the link to see the insides of a TCI 3000 converters quality compared to another converter.

http://xs-fx.com/raughammer/TCI%20ex...rs_exposed.htm

Ya get what you pay for...and sometimes less.

Another example? https://ls1tech.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ulti...c;f=2;t=004040

Country Boy

iTrader: (24)

Nice comparison <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> I bet you love that TCI, huh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> I never knew what the inside of a converter looked like untill now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Ragtop 99

iTrader: (7)

John:

That is a six lug Yank housing. That is not the standard housing for the LS1 Yank 3000. Was that an older model?

11 Bravo

iTrader: (3)

But TCI is smart. They call it the "street fighter", and guys who know no better buy it because it has a cool name. The people at TCI are not true hot rodders. They are smart money suckers with no pride in their craft. I hope they read this.

new-LS1

Do you think that the inside of a VIG will look as nice as the inside of the YANK? I just tosed my YANK 3200 stealth thruster, for a #7 pump VIG 3600.

mmiller

iTrader: (1)

Raugh,

That comparison pretty much speaks for itself. I pulled up the quickest all-out times for automatic LS1's. Click on the link below, then go to the drop down arrow and select "quickest A4 (includes power adders)", then select "Go".

Notice the number of cars with Yank converters. Very few Vigilante verters and NO TCI verters. This chart speaks pretty much puts to rest any argument about who makes the best converter for the LS1's.

http://xs-fx.com/list/ls1tech_list.php

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: mmiller ]</small>

AlonzoVersion 1.0

Good info Raughammer and yes you do get what you pay for.I didnt buy a yank because my car wasnt pretty in pink(vig)but I bought because it would out perform the vig in every aspect.I never trusted TCI I had heard a few bad things about them from a few of my pals around the way.Good comparison.I hate to see people waste their hard earned cash.

2xLS1

iTrader: (25)

Where is Kevin Winstead, the TCI engineer who was on here pimping his converters a couple of weeks ago?

https://ls1tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.p...c;f=2;t=002730

I'd like to hear what he has to say about this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Ragtop said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a six lug Yank housing. That is not the standard housing for the LS1 Yank 3000. Was that an older model?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, that is a new style billet cover with a dual bolt pattern. One for the C5/LT1 owners and one for the LS1 F-Body/Truck owners. The dual pattern billet cover saves cost and sure makes for a pretty piece.

Reckless

iTrader: (9)

Nice comparison John...I don't know squat about TC's, but now I know who to talk to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Patrick G:
<strong>Ragtop said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is a six lug Yank housing. That is not the standard housing for the LS1 Yank 3000. Was that an older model?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Joel, that is a new style billet cover with a dual bolt pattern. One for the C5/LT1 owners and one for the LS1 F-Body/Truck owners. The dual pattern billet cover saves cost and sure makes for a pretty piece.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pat...Mike (at Yank) told me the 6-lug pattern is for race converters for added stregth. All the TH350 and TH400 converters have 6-lug. Not saying you are wrong, just stating what I was told!

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Todd, you are correct. 6 bolt lugs are for added strength, but the Yank 3000 has two sets of 3 lug holes. One set for LS1s and one for LT1s, that's all. It's not a dedicated 6 lug converter like a Pro Yank Extreme. That's not to say you couldn't drill your flexplate to use all 6 lugs, haha.

Raughammer

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Country Boy:
<strong> I never knew what the inside of a converter looked like untill now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is a wealth of converter info on my web page. From short movies on how they work to a detailed description as to WHY they work how they work.

Good info for the enthusiast.

http://xs-fx.com/raughammer/CONVERTER.HTM

Man, in the TCI/Yank pics can you see the difference in the knife edging of the blades?
Comparing the two clutches was just plain sad.

Tim98TA

iTrader: (7)

Has someone done a comparison like this between the Vig and the Yank?

How about doing a comparison of the Yank trannys against say the FLP and/or the Speed Inc trannies? That would be interesting.

Tim

98TAauto

iTrader: (2)

exactly why i would never buy a TCI

Kevin Winstead

Hi Guys,
Wow, leave the place for a couple of days and all of a sudden we've got a website showing one of our converters cut open. John, I know that you're a big Yank fan (Yeck, Pepper is on the front page of their website), but I'm still kinda surprised that you've bashed our converter like you have. I guess you've probably learned alot about converters over the years dealing with Yank, but you've got quite a bit of misinformation and misleading statements on your website. I've been the torque converter engineer here at TCI for over 6 years. (I'm actually a mechanical engineer.)
To start with, you're comparing a $750 Yank 3000 converter built from a GM Cadillac Northstar core to a $450 TCI 3000 converter built from a 245mm S10 core. We have actually used the Northstar core in the past for some LS1 applications and still use it for some non-LS1 applications. It's certainly not a bad core, but let me tell you why I no longer use it for LS1 applications.
1. It's relatively heavy as compared to the 245mm core.
2. It has a low stall speed as compared to the 245mm core.
3. It's typically only worth .35 through the quarter, as compared to our StreetFighter's average of .45.
4. It has very little adjustability in stall speed. The 245mm has alot of flexibility in that area. If our customer decides that they want to step up, they can send the converter back to us and we can change the pump to increase the stall speed. There's not much you can do with the Northstar core.
5. The aluminum viscous damper assembly has problems of it's own as well. I've seen several cores with worn-out viscous dampers.

Don't get me wrong, the Northstar is not a bad core, just not the best for most LS1 applications, IMO. It would perform very well in a stroker nitrous car or a supercharged or turbo car. It's very efficient on the big end, but it simply doesn't allow a mild stock cubic inch LS1 to get to the meaty part of it's power curve quick enough. Don't believe me? Weld both the TCI and the Yank converters back together and install them in either Pepper or Matt's car. You'll have some decent mph with the Northstar, but the ET advantage will be with the 245mm.

It seems odd to compare the Northstar core to the 245 core when Yank typically uses the 245mm core. Who runs the Yank 3000? I've noticed that you typically recommend nothing less than than a Yank 3500. It's built out of the 245mm core. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

John, I did peruse your website and I've gotta say that I loved your kill stories section. You've got me hanging on the edge of my seat waiting for more. I also checked out the TCI Torque Converters Exposed section. I've just got a couple of comments on some of the picture captions.
Caption 3: We use preground Sonnax hubs only. No need to worry about these having a scratched finish.
Caption 7&8: You mention the advantage of knife edged blades several times. Although this may be a neat advertising feature for the 3000 stall converter, no 245 mm converter comes with knife edged blades...not TCI, Yank, Precision, or Midwest. I'm sure if Mike thought that it was important to have that feature in his converters that he would put it in all of his converters.
Caption 10: I'll have to concede on this one. Some of our earlier LS1 converters didn't have a nice smooth radius into the seal bore area...they do now. The only problem that presented was to make the converter a little more difficult to install on the transmission.
Caption 13 & 31-35: You're comparing the Northstar to the 245mm. I'm not sure if you realize this but Mike uses the same sprag assembly in his 245mm converters as we do. You don't think they're strong enough? I've applied 700 ft lbs to them with no breakage!
Caption 14: The turbine only spins in the converter when the converter is slipping, not when it's locked up. The heat generated by the tabs will be on the order of 100x less than the heat generated by the turbine slippage. The smooth backside on the Northstar is for NVH purposes...remember it is for a Cadillac.
Caption 18: I'm not a big fan of GMs aluminum viscous damper. As I've stated earlier, I've seen several failures on cores. Apparently the viscous fluid can escape from the housing and allow slippage codes to appear in some cases. We use the later model HD S10 clutch assemblys. The important thing about the clutch is to use a material that will work properly with the PWM lockup transmissions. Notice how narrow the clutch material is on the Northstar and how wide it is on the TCI clutch assembly. The type of material and the width of the material is important to the function of the lockup converter.
Caption 22: This statement about the mounting ring being weak and prone to break loose is completely unsustantiated. We've built over 10,000 converters with these mounting rings over the last 5 years. We've never had a single return for a ring that was broke loose.
Captions 7, 8, 14, 36 & 37: I must add that we've tested our furnace brazed pump and turbines for many cycles on our 675 hp dyno engine. I don't think you'll have any guys torture our parts more than we have.
Just wanted to set the record straight!
Kevin

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Winstead ]</small>

Stu

Kevin, IMO that is one hell of an efficient verter you make there. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

I understand LS1Tech has sponsors but this company bashing thing is kinda silly.

Raugh, just out of curiosity how many TCI verters have you tore apart?

Later, Stu

Kristi

Oh great... the Yank has prettier welds and less paint splatter! I guess all of us who are stuck with torn-up Yank converters can cut them open and hang them in our living rooms for decoration! Meanwhile, I'll be out driving and racing with my TCI 3500 that outperforms my old ST3500 with the comfort of knowing that if I have a problem, TCI will take care of me, something that I CANNOT say for Yank.
Notice Kevin comes on here himself to explain and defend his product whereas Mike from Yank sends free converters and transmissions to people so they'll come on here and take up for him while he sits there and whines about how he has to cancel his street converter lines because the phone is ringing off the hook with complaints about them and he can't get any work done. <img border="0" alt="[whiner]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cry.gif" />

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Kristi ]</small>

99BlueZ28

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mmiller:
<strong>

Notice the number of cars with Yank converters. Very few Vigilante verters and NO TCI verters. This chart speaks pretty much puts to rest any argument about who makes the best converter for the LS1's.

http://xs-fx.com/list/ls1tech_list.php</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Note also that the converter alone is not responsible for making these cars so quick. Mucho $$$ has been thrown into these cars. Ya can't just put a PT4400 and a set of slicks on a LS1 powered vehicle and run 9s. Speed can be achieved with money and the converter is only 1 part of the puzzle.

WILWAXU

iTrader: (6)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99BlueZ28:
<strong>Note also that the converter alone is not responsible for making these cars so quick. Mucho $$$ has been thrown into these cars. Ya can't just put a PT4400 and a set of slicks on a LS1 powered vehicle and run 9s. Speed can be achieved with money and the converter is only 1 part of the puzzle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No not nines... 12.07@111 (1.62) That was my 2001 Formula with 1700 miles on it... with little more than a TP-4400 and ET Streets. Check it out.. it's on my website.

Superman

An apples to apples comparison would have been much more fair... oh wait the Yanks were sooo good they had to stop selling many of them.
Here`s direct quote from Mike after an ST 3500 was vibrating " umm just rotate it 90 degrees"
LOL too funny.

Kevin, thanx for setting the record straight.. God forbid Yank has more competition, they may actually have to do some real reasearch and development.

Hurray for the Yank cheering section <img border="0" alt="[gay]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_rainbow.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[boring]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_zzz.gif" />

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Dan99Hawk ]</small>