WECIV

This is such a dangerous precedent. If we go down this path we will be much less productive as an economy.

W

WECIV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs

W

TriShield

When the smoke clears it's just going to be Cadillac and Chevrolet.

And really, what did you guys expect? What is there to mourn anymore? Pontiac is a shell of itself and really so is all of GM.

The company has been grossly mismanaged for almost thirty years. What is happening now was inevitable.

Rawr256

x2

Pontiac hasen't been the performance division it was suppose to be for nearly the last 10 years when the V series came out and everything that had power was all FWD with an auto and no manual option. IMO Cadillac slowly took over what Pontiac was suppose to be or at least what we were told it was suppose to be. The G8 is the first performance or fun car that has come out solely for Pontiac in years.

I get the whole thing of Buick does great over in China... but why does that mean we keep them here in the US? We don't have Holden or Opel here in the states and this isn't in any of the talks that is ever happening. Maybe they are a different company just buying the drivetrain from GM or something?

Right now the biggest thing killing them (or did kill them) is skewed perception. GM cars probably get as good or better mileage than the Toyota's and Honda's. It's funny when talking with friends and I tell them my TA will get 28 MPG on the highway and 22 in town with me romping on it occasionally, than they see some new Toyota Camry S or something and make the comment "I bet that gets 50mpg though!" when in reality it might be seeing low 30's.

What goes hand in hand with this is the whole thing that GM products are "unreliable." If unreliable is getting me near 200k miles on my GTP with it beaten to hell than I guess reliable must be 400k miles on some car, which in all honesty I have never once seen an import car over 200k miles in all the time I have driven cars in used lots or been looking through them in junkyards or looking in for sale ads. I guess it is the squeek that people hear from the door that they just ripped off to put in bigger speakers though that is causing the problem.

Bryan921SS

All I have to say on the subject is that we all must remember that when the auto makers took the bailout money they effectively turned their business over to the government. That was a stipulation in the agreement to receive tax payers money to keep them going....GM is now owned by the Government when is in turn owned by you and me...the only problem is the Government doesn't really listen to you and me...oh and also the V8 loving die hard Camaro/Muscle Car loving crowd isn't too big these days...that damn green movement is catching on and might kill it for the rest of us.....


This new world isn't going to be the one we were promised as children...but i sure hope it will still have an option available for the people like us who like to have fun, go fast and express our love for our country through our cars....

jimmy169

Your calling me unamerican while saying maybe this country needs to fail? ok...

Jon5212

iTrader: (2)

^^^ I am not talking about the citizens failing... I'm talking about our government. If you think our government is doing just fine and following the constitution you are ignorant.

jimmy169

If the government did not step in to save GM when they couldn't pay their loans and workers and when the banks weren't lending any credit to anyone, what do you think would have happened to the citizens?


The government is only helping them survive this, they have no plans to take over and have their own car company like they have their own postal service. Once the dust settle's, hopefully the turn around the corner is coming sooner than later, some predict by the end of 09, then the government will leave GM be, aspecially when they get their money back, and it's business as usual, but hopefully with more affordable gas economical cars that most of the people are looking for instead of putting all of it's egg's into the suv's and truck basket. Right now they have great lineup's with the gas economy beating out the competition but right now money is so tight that people can't exactly show their enthusiasm and go out and buy them at this very moment.

jimmy169

I hope the UAW works it out with them, seems like they gave Ford a good deal.

Irunelevens

You must not be looking too hard then... here's 11,483 used Hondas with over 100,000 miles, the first 3 full pages of with have over 200,000 miles. http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search...first_record=1 I sold my old Integra with 193,000 miles on it running like a top, my dad sold his '87 Accord with 235,000 miles (after 13 years), and my mom sold her '91 Legend with 245,000 miles (after 7 years). I understand you have a strong opinion, but that comment made you sound pretty stupid.

Jon5212

iTrader: (2)

Thats because every other company is sending jobs overseas which leaves no work in the U.S. But this is the problem... when someone gets in a bind, they expect to look for others to bail them out instead of fixing it themselves, which never fixes anything. The same problem will still arise, it is just a matter of time.

jimmy169

I think the biggest problem is deregulation, and it seems Enron aspecially what they did with electricity in california I think it was, wasn't enough evidence that regulation is needed similar to the way law is needed on the streets, but before this spirals any further I'll just agree to disagree. Even though I agree with you about the bailouts, but in these economic time's it's like cutting your nose to spite your face, in any other economic time's I would agree to let them sink, but in these economic time's I don't want to see another great depression. I'm personally doing ok right now and am very greatful for it, I just feel bad for the other's and the ever growing unemployment line.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

Geez dude, relax. He was stating that "he hasn't seen...", not "there isn't...". That doesn't make him look stupid. You try to use your own personal experiences as evidence all the time...someone else does it and they're "making themselves look stupid" in your mind. Look in the mirror.

I have to note that i've owned two Acuras, and my mother has owned three Acuras and one Honda. None of the Acuras made it to 200k, all of them were sold because of major issues (head gasket on one, timing belt destruction on another, and trannies on the rest). Also, her 2007 accord needed a new transmission at 19k miles. So while yours and others personal experiences may say one thing, there are just as many others who's personal experiences say the complete opposite. Neither instance makes either party right or wrong.

Rawr256

In a single day I see more older domestics (not classics) driving on the road than I do any of the honda's. My cousin had a 89 CRX SI that had 160k on it and it was falling apart. My grandfather bought him a fresh engine to put in it just to sell it. Month later he sold it with the engine toast again. Grandfather had a 91 MR2 and the thing spent more time sitting in his garage on jack stands than it did with the tires on the road.

My dad bought a 89 Grand Am with the quad 4 and the thing went strong to 246k Miles where it spun a bearing. Dad had a 90 Transport that had 287k miles on it and my brother didn't think cars really needed oil and drove 9 months without checking the oil until it was run dry. My GTP has 187k or so miles on it and is beaten daily, only thing I ever have to worry about is they threw in a weak tranny for a torquey motor.

IMO what it all comes down to is general maintanence. The only problem the Transport above ever had was the gasket to the thermostat blew apart on a hot summer day, it was bought brand new and never had any issues and made multiple trips across the country loaded with people and luggage. The CRX my cousin had with the new motor probably ran hot because his dumbass didn't know how to fill a car with coolant.

If I drove my *** out into the indian reservation and looked through the fields of cars they have just sitting I am sure I could find a few imports with over 200k miles on them. Same goes for domestics.

It all comes down to perception. Negative perception hurts sales. If people knew about all the recalls that were going on for all their beloved Toyota's they would be looking for something else. A good example is a problem that came up with the Vibe/Matrix with the power windows shattering the glass and possibly injuring people. The Vibe was front page news with something like 50,000 out there but you had to dig deep to find out that 250,000 Matrix's were affected with this issue.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

Yes, we know that you and all of your family have a history of buying foreign cars.

WECIV

"When the smoke clears it's just going to be Cadillac and Chevrolet.

And really, what did you guys expect? What is there to mourn anymore? Pontiac is a shell of itself and really so is all of GM.

The company has been grossly mismanaged for almost thirty years. What is happening now was inevitable."

I agree they need to go. But the government does not need to be involved. A good historical view of where we are headed is the UK after WWII.

W

wannabess00

iTrader: (1)

Umm..Endless piles of rubble that were once homes and businesses and mass human remains being pulled out?


Amazingly enough, some British leaders actually credit the hardship suffered through the second world war a large cause of why they've made great social and domestic progress in their country, which is to say, they implemented programs that we would ignorantly consider socialist as if we have any understanding of living under true ruthless governing or mass long term devastation.

Irunelevens

The way he said it was pretty apparent that he was implying that imports don't make it to 200k. When you claim to look at used cars all the time, and go to junkyards, and you still "never see any imports with 200k miles," you are either lying, or you weren't paying attention. They are EVERYWHERE. And you can't blame timing belt failure on the car unless it went out with 40k miles. It's a maintenance item. I blew a timing belt on my GS-R (interference engine) and did no damage.
Where is it exactly that you live where you have never seen an import with more than 200k miles, but you see 200k+ mile domestics on a daily basis?
And Corvettes. And Mustangs. I'd say we've been through enough cars where I'm more than allowed to have an opinion. Never once did I say that some domestics didn't last, but I did say that there are plenty of imports with 200k+ miles

ss1129

iTrader: (16)

Holy **** dude. This is a shitty situation. Gm needs to back the **** out and file chapter 11 now. Obama already said they would back GM warranties. Thats all they should need to hear. Back the **** out, axe the UAW and start again. Or Gm should just say "**** you, we are doing this our way" and close up shop. Its better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

Dont fall into this trap GM. Do it your way or fold up. ****'em.

Irunelevens

The problem is, it's pretty obvious that when they do it their way... it doesn't work.