CTS-V Thottle body porting (Money back guarantee)
08-12-2012, 05:03 PM
#1
CTS-V Thottle body porting (Money back guarantee) Guys,
Most of you already know me or know of me but I suspect what you may not know is I recently picked up a 2009 CTS-V project car which I plan to slowly modify and take what is an incredibly good stock platform and turn it into my vision of a four door super car.
I purchased the car used of course had the car shipped cross country after shopping for awhile (basically looking for the right car and the right situation). Its black on black and the previous owner was not nearly as fussy as I am in his black upkeep which we all know is a PITA....LOL (there were lots of swirl marks and light scratches in the paint). Overall however the interior was really nice and the body was clean barring a few small dings on the doors and deck lid which I hired a local "paintless" dent man to miraculously remove (this guy was amazing....cant even see the repaired area on a black car). Now with the little bit of time I can allocate to the car I have been slowly working my way around the body with 3000 paper and a polishing wheel getting all the light swirls and scratches out of the paint (still not finished completely but it looks like a different car now....especially up close). I also painted the grill, changed up and deleted an emblem or two, painted the rear "chrome bar" body colored black, and for the most part have simply focused on the aesthetics of the car.
To get back on topic however I was a bit underwhelmed with the low RPM power and response.....while feeling strong at WOT (the car has aftermarket pulleys and a CAI) it just felt really lazy driving it around town and the throttle response was soft (Note Ive driven alot of high powered vehicles over the years). It just wasn't as much fun to drive as I envisioned and I immediately suspected the OEM throttle body shape may have a large part in what I was feeling.
I believe the second day of ownership the hood was up and after removing the rubber coupler to the CAI (and viewing the shape of the TB housing) my suspicions were immediately confirmed that the TB was likely a large part of the sluggish response I felt that was tarnishing some of the fun to drive factor for me.
I spent about a week or so experimenting with various levels of porting aggressiveness because porting a TB is a delicate balancing act and its easy to under port or over port and there is a sweet spot right in the middle. I did this years ago with the LS2/LS7 90mm throttle by wire TB's slowly working up to a very responsive piece but one that wont throw codes or give tuner's fits from too much airflow and low throttle positions making the car more of a PITA to tune (note Ive literally ported a couple of hundred of the LS2/LS7 90mm units now....alot combined with the FAST manifold porting as well).
Anyway, the car feels amazing now in comparison to stock....it feels like the engine is 50 CID larger and it comes up on boost so much faster and smoother.....it is a very linear power curve. It feels like a big N/A motor now for lack of a better description...no "dead zone" with the first 25% of throttle travel and then come on like gang busters and Im also confident the car probably picked up a few RWHP as well from the increased airflow of the porting work (the TB is MUCH more ideally shaped now and I would suspect is up over 100 CFM). I will be dynoing the car soon with a stock TB from my 2007 Suburban (exact same TB.....its an 87mm drive by wire unit) to quantify whether it was worth a few ponies to the rear wheel but even if it wasn't worth a single horsepower (highly unlikely), the driving experience of the car has improved drastically....its just alot more fun to drive and it begs you to be "stupid" even more.....LOL
I had Tony Lukezic sent me his stock TB from his 2011 CTS-V (the gut that runs the Trailblazer site and a Caddy forum as well) and he was tickled pink with the results. For him it even cured an off idle bog his particular engine experienced and he absolutely loves the new response and somewhat different driving experience from the ported TB. (Unfortunately he can't comment here due to being involved with other forums).
Having experienced it personally I knew why he was so happy with it.
Anyway guys I'm charging a very reasonable fee to port these which I can honestly say will be the best small investment you will have ever made in your car. In fact, I will refund the cost of the porting and your shipping costs if your in any way unhappy with the results (and of course swap you a used stock un-ported TB).
I will be getting into porting the OEM blower cases and snouts and have already started the R&D process there but right now with the time I have available I'm going to stick with the TB's (and cylinder heads of course).
I need to get some pics of my new ride in this thread....And I will probably take some before and after pics of the next TB I port as well so you guys can see the magnitude of the change in shape (I'm literally covered in aluminum chips working on a single TB).
I will be upgrading the tires and rims soon also....going with a set of Forgline rims and the new Michelin Pilot Super Sports.
Sorry for the novel guys....had alot to say
Also, have I mentioned I love this car?.....LOL
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....If you are interested in TB work just shoot me a PM.....its the easiest way to get hold of me and I typically respond fairly quickly.
PSS....Next on the performance hit list is a 160 stat, a Mezeirre electric water pump, and a larger aftermarket heat exchanger and larger pump as well. With the pulley swap and all the stock stuff, the IAT's are 25-30 degrees or more above ambient. I will update you guys with the results of those mods as well when the time comes.
Most of you already know me or know of me but I suspect what you may not know is I recently picked up a 2009 CTS-V project car which I plan to slowly modify and take what is an incredibly good stock platform and turn it into my vision of a four door super car.
I purchased the car used of course had the car shipped cross country after shopping for awhile (basically looking for the right car and the right situation). Its black on black and the previous owner was not nearly as fussy as I am in his black upkeep which we all know is a PITA....LOL (there were lots of swirl marks and light scratches in the paint). Overall however the interior was really nice and the body was clean barring a few small dings on the doors and deck lid which I hired a local "paintless" dent man to miraculously remove (this guy was amazing....cant even see the repaired area on a black car). Now with the little bit of time I can allocate to the car I have been slowly working my way around the body with 3000 paper and a polishing wheel getting all the light swirls and scratches out of the paint (still not finished completely but it looks like a different car now....especially up close). I also painted the grill, changed up and deleted an emblem or two, painted the rear "chrome bar" body colored black, and for the most part have simply focused on the aesthetics of the car.
To get back on topic however I was a bit underwhelmed with the low RPM power and response.....while feeling strong at WOT (the car has aftermarket pulleys and a CAI) it just felt really lazy driving it around town and the throttle response was soft (Note Ive driven alot of high powered vehicles over the years). It just wasn't as much fun to drive as I envisioned and I immediately suspected the OEM throttle body shape may have a large part in what I was feeling.
I believe the second day of ownership the hood was up and after removing the rubber coupler to the CAI (and viewing the shape of the TB housing) my suspicions were immediately confirmed that the TB was likely a large part of the sluggish response I felt that was tarnishing some of the fun to drive factor for me.
I spent about a week or so experimenting with various levels of porting aggressiveness because porting a TB is a delicate balancing act and its easy to under port or over port and there is a sweet spot right in the middle. I did this years ago with the LS2/LS7 90mm throttle by wire TB's slowly working up to a very responsive piece but one that wont throw codes or give tuner's fits from too much airflow and low throttle positions making the car more of a PITA to tune (note Ive literally ported a couple of hundred of the LS2/LS7 90mm units now....alot combined with the FAST manifold porting as well).
Anyway, the car feels amazing now in comparison to stock....it feels like the engine is 50 CID larger and it comes up on boost so much faster and smoother.....it is a very linear power curve. It feels like a big N/A motor now for lack of a better description...no "dead zone" with the first 25% of throttle travel and then come on like gang busters and Im also confident the car probably picked up a few RWHP as well from the increased airflow of the porting work (the TB is MUCH more ideally shaped now and I would suspect is up over 100 CFM). I will be dynoing the car soon with a stock TB from my 2007 Suburban (exact same TB.....its an 87mm drive by wire unit) to quantify whether it was worth a few ponies to the rear wheel but even if it wasn't worth a single horsepower (highly unlikely), the driving experience of the car has improved drastically....its just alot more fun to drive and it begs you to be "stupid" even more.....LOL
I had Tony Lukezic sent me his stock TB from his 2011 CTS-V (the gut that runs the Trailblazer site and a Caddy forum as well) and he was tickled pink with the results. For him it even cured an off idle bog his particular engine experienced and he absolutely loves the new response and somewhat different driving experience from the ported TB. (Unfortunately he can't comment here due to being involved with other forums).
Having experienced it personally I knew why he was so happy with it.
Anyway guys I'm charging a very reasonable fee to port these which I can honestly say will be the best small investment you will have ever made in your car. In fact, I will refund the cost of the porting and your shipping costs if your in any way unhappy with the results (and of course swap you a used stock un-ported TB).
I will be getting into porting the OEM blower cases and snouts and have already started the R&D process there but right now with the time I have available I'm going to stick with the TB's (and cylinder heads of course).
I need to get some pics of my new ride in this thread....And I will probably take some before and after pics of the next TB I port as well so you guys can see the magnitude of the change in shape (I'm literally covered in aluminum chips working on a single TB).
I will be upgrading the tires and rims soon also....going with a set of Forgline rims and the new Michelin Pilot Super Sports.
Sorry for the novel guys....had alot to say
Also, have I mentioned I love this car?.....LOL
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....If you are interested in TB work just shoot me a PM.....its the easiest way to get hold of me and I typically respond fairly quickly.
PSS....Next on the performance hit list is a 160 stat, a Mezeirre electric water pump, and a larger aftermarket heat exchanger and larger pump as well. With the pulley swap and all the stock stuff, the IAT's are 25-30 degrees or more above ambient. I will update you guys with the results of those mods as well when the time comes.
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 08-20-2012 at 06:36 PM.
08-12-2012, 07:46 PM
#2
TECH Fanatic
Tony, great to see that you are finally a V owner! I believe the V community will benefit greatly from your experiences. I have also heard a lot of V2 owners adding a ground wire to their TB's with surprising results (even those that upgraded to LS7 TB's). Glad to have you around!
08-12-2012, 08:05 PM
#4
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Finally, Tony! Where you been???
Welcome to the Caddy Club, and by the time you're done with your R&D, I hope to be in a V2...which is why you haven't heard back from me re: heads & cam for my LS2. Rather dump the coin into a car that can handle it.
Welcome to the Caddy Club, and by the time you're done with your R&D, I hope to be in a V2...which is why you haven't heard back from me re: heads & cam for my LS2. Rather dump the coin into a car that can handle it.
08-12-2012, 08:43 PM
#6
Guys.....thanks for the warm welcome so to speak
This car is undeniably a fantastic refined hot rod....V1 or V2 for that matter (buddy of mine modded a V1 with killer results as well).
Addressing the question above, the FAST 102 is a cable TB and its pretty optimized out of the box. Save your money....any gains from me porting it would be minimal with that and the NW TB's as well.
The stock 87 and 90mm drive by wire TB's (the CTS-V/truck and the LS2/LS7) however is a completely different animal. The TB blade is covered in aluminum till you reach about 25% throttle opening and the huge hump in the TB (which covers the blade) restricts airflow at WOT as well. Properly reshaping these stock DBW TB's yields really sizable gains and some peak power as well (on N/A applications its usually 3-6 HP depending on the configuration of the engine).
Cant wait to mess with this car some more.....its going to be a slow process though because Im an extremely busy guy...LOL (Ive got my C5 R&D car in a million pieces now also!).
The Caddy stays running though....down time limited to days or weeks at best!
Regards,
Tony
This car is undeniably a fantastic refined hot rod....V1 or V2 for that matter (buddy of mine modded a V1 with killer results as well).
Addressing the question above, the FAST 102 is a cable TB and its pretty optimized out of the box. Save your money....any gains from me porting it would be minimal with that and the NW TB's as well.
The stock 87 and 90mm drive by wire TB's (the CTS-V/truck and the LS2/LS7) however is a completely different animal. The TB blade is covered in aluminum till you reach about 25% throttle opening and the huge hump in the TB (which covers the blade) restricts airflow at WOT as well. Properly reshaping these stock DBW TB's yields really sizable gains and some peak power as well (on N/A applications its usually 3-6 HP depending on the configuration of the engine).
Cant wait to mess with this car some more.....its going to be a slow process though because Im an extremely busy guy...LOL (Ive got my C5 R&D car in a million pieces now also!).
The Caddy stays running though....down time limited to days or weeks at best!
Regards,
Tony
08-14-2012, 07:54 AM
#7
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Tony get the ECM tuned to unlock the torque converter at tps above 25%. All low end response is fixed. The stock tune basicly locks the converter above 1st gear at any tps.
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08-14-2012, 12:51 PM
#8
First off I appreciate your post and the information provided but honestly that would be more of a bandaid.....the real problem still exists that the OEM TB's have a horribly inefficient shaped housing that detracts from a linear amount of airflow as it relates to throttle position (and your brain and right foot) and it also limits peak flow (and power) for all the same reasons.
From closed to 25% throttle you probably only increase airflow 10% (literally....and honestly that figure may be optimistic)....which is why its so horribly lazy at most part throttle (off boost) positions. Once you get the blade past the huge hunk of aluminum (which I remove a good part of) than the engine is finally able to see some air so it jumps to life as your much deeper in the pedal.
Trust me man.....the TB is the right fix for this problem and is worth some additional power as well due to the fact it will flow significantly more air ported.
Not to say Mike's suggestion above couldn't make it even better, but the bottom line is when I drive the car now it has a perfectly linear and responsive pedal.....you push a little and the car immediately responds.....push a little more and the car responds even more. Prior to this you push a little and the engine seemed not to care.....push a little more its start to respond a bit.....push even more and finally it jumps to life a little but the amount of pedal travel required to do that was painful and of course it was an all or nothing type of feel....not linear or responsive at all.
With the reshaped TB is just feels more like a larger cubic inch normally aspirated engine with immediate (no lag or laziness) response at every throttle position.
If someone is reading this with stock drive by wire TB and is curious you need to contact me.....If you don't think it was the best couple of hundred you ever spent I will seriously refund all your money. Guys that know me and know my reputation know I'm a straight shooter....I don't make false claims and I typically sand bag more than over hype anything Im involved in.
I wish Tony (who I just helped) could post a testimonial here.....The title of his email to me (after he got the chance to drive his car with the reworked TB) looked like this DAMN !!!
Tell you what.....the first three guys I get to help with this (that mention this thread obviously) I will throw in free return freight but part of that deal is you post in this thread your experience good, bad, or indifferent.
PM me and we can go from there.
-Tony
08-27-2012, 11:26 AM
#10
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got my throttle body over the weekend and had it on the car before the mailman was out of sight....lol
the throttle response is much better, and goes into boost really easily now. very pleased!
thanks Tony!!!
the throttle response is much better, and goes into boost really easily now. very pleased!
thanks Tony!!!
08-27-2012, 11:30 AM
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08-27-2012, 07:13 PM
#12
What he means is less throttle position starts bringing in the blower sooner (boost starts to build) and obviously the power as well. When you squeeze the throttle a little the car actually responds now and starts to accelerate.....squeeze a little more and it rewards you with more acceleration....it is a much more powerful and more linear (natural) feel in the throttle.
Keep in mind guys that till the blower starts making boost its simply a parasite and it reduces available power at the wheels.
Having driven powerful and efficient N/A engines for most of my life it's an adjustment getting in a boosted street car and it was a much more painful one with my stock TB (amplified by the fact a forced induction roots type or centrifugal set-up making no boost is always softer in feel than a similar N/A engine would be without the parasitic losses of the blower and the hotter intake charge it naturally produces).
While it still doesn't have the "snappiness" and tip in response a good N/A engine does or would have in a similar displacement (off boost), with the ported TB the responsiveness is a 200% improvement and the lethargic feeling is all but eliminated (or seriously minimized) and it doesn't take nearly as much throttle to start building boost (that's what Evil meant by that).
And of course thats when the weight, parasitic losses, and heat produced from the blower start paying you dividends (when the boost gauge unseats from its resting spot!). Till then that blower perched on top of your engine is a spinning bunch of metal sucking precious available power from your rear wheels!
-Tony
Keep in mind guys that till the blower starts making boost its simply a parasite and it reduces available power at the wheels.
Having driven powerful and efficient N/A engines for most of my life it's an adjustment getting in a boosted street car and it was a much more painful one with my stock TB (amplified by the fact a forced induction roots type or centrifugal set-up making no boost is always softer in feel than a similar N/A engine would be without the parasitic losses of the blower and the hotter intake charge it naturally produces).
While it still doesn't have the "snappiness" and tip in response a good N/A engine does or would have in a similar displacement (off boost), with the ported TB the responsiveness is a 200% improvement and the lethargic feeling is all but eliminated (or seriously minimized) and it doesn't take nearly as much throttle to start building boost (that's what Evil meant by that).
And of course thats when the weight, parasitic losses, and heat produced from the blower start paying you dividends (when the boost gauge unseats from its resting spot!). Till then that blower perched on top of your engine is a spinning bunch of metal sucking precious available power from your rear wheels!
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 08-27-2012 at 10:06 PM.
09-06-2012, 12:36 AM
#18
Couple of so-so camera phone pics to share guys....
(The small puddles on the ground are water after a bath....not oil....LOL)
When I'm done dialing her in I will upload some higher quality photos!
In fact I may upload some better ones after my next mod which will be to black out the window trim with the trimbrite matte finish black tape. Thats going to look good!
Cheers,
Tony
(The small puddles on the ground are water after a bath....not oil....LOL)
When I'm done dialing her in I will upload some higher quality photos!
In fact I may upload some better ones after my next mod which will be to black out the window trim with the trimbrite matte finish black tape. Thats going to look good!
Cheers,
Tony
09-06-2012, 09:34 PM
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What he means is less throttle position starts bringing in the blower sooner (boost starts to build) and obviously the power as well. When you squeeze the throttle a little the car actually responds now and starts to accelerate.....squeeze a little more and it rewards you with more acceleration....it is a much more powerful and more linear (natural) feel in the throttle.
Keep in mind guys that till the blower starts making boost its simply a parasite and it reduces available power at the wheels.
Having driven powerful and efficient N/A engines for most of my life it's an adjustment getting in a boosted street car and it was a much more painful one with my stock TB (amplified by the fact a forced induction roots type or centrifugal set-up making no boost is always softer in feel than a similar N/A engine would be without the parasitic losses of the blower and the hotter intake charge it naturally produces).
While it still doesn't have the "snappiness" and tip in response a good N/A engine does or would have in a similar displacement (off boost), with the ported TB the responsiveness is a 200% improvement and the lethargic feeling is all but eliminated (or seriously minimized) and it doesn't take nearly as much throttle to start building boost (that's what Evil meant by that).
And of course thats when the weight, parasitic losses, and heat produced from the blower start paying you dividends (when the boost gauge unseats from its resting spot!). Till then that blower perched on top of your engine is a spinning bunch of metal sucking precious available power from your rear wheels!
-Tony
Keep in mind guys that till the blower starts making boost its simply a parasite and it reduces available power at the wheels.
Having driven powerful and efficient N/A engines for most of my life it's an adjustment getting in a boosted street car and it was a much more painful one with my stock TB (amplified by the fact a forced induction roots type or centrifugal set-up making no boost is always softer in feel than a similar N/A engine would be without the parasitic losses of the blower and the hotter intake charge it naturally produces).
While it still doesn't have the "snappiness" and tip in response a good N/A engine does or would have in a similar displacement (off boost), with the ported TB the responsiveness is a 200% improvement and the lethargic feeling is all but eliminated (or seriously minimized) and it doesn't take nearly as much throttle to start building boost (that's what Evil meant by that).
And of course thats when the weight, parasitic losses, and heat produced from the blower start paying you dividends (when the boost gauge unseats from its resting spot!). Till then that blower perched on top of your engine is a spinning bunch of metal sucking precious available power from your rear wheels!
-Tony