VScharesV

Right now my car is completely torn apart
Sitting in my garage waiting to go in is:
New drive shaft
new radiator
cs mm, transmission mount and rear dif bushing
Rev shift rear craddle bushing
pat g specced eps 230/232 .629/.629 113+4 lsa cam
BTR dual springs w/ti retainers
BTR push rods
Obx headers
port n polished ls6 heads
K&n cai
Is there anything else I should do while it is torn apart? Also I bought hp tuners a lap top and a wide band O2 sensor and I am going to attempt to tune it myself. Also after im done i will take it to a dyno, what kind of numbers should I expect to see? (assumeing I did a good job on the tune).
Thanks

ryridesmotox

Be careful with the tune... There are plenty of guys on the hptuners forums that are available to help if needed. I would browse there a lot first. If it were me, and I'll be doing this myself as well, do a speed density tune... Take the maf out of the intake, eliminate the CAGS shift bullshit and be easy with the timing and AFR. Step them both gradually til you see a little bit of knock retard then back it down a few degrees... Every car is different don't be afraid to ask for help on the HP forums... There are plenty of guys that will look over logs for you for nothing just to help out.

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

Car should make 425ish when its all said and done. I like the cam specs and liek its been said take your time on the tune and if in doubt leave it conseevative. Driveability tune will probably take a good amount of time to dial in so be patient. I would stick with the MAF personally over speed density.

VScharesV

Yeah I was probably going to do a SD tune. But I will take my time and go slow. Id be happy with 425whp.

CTSVBiggie

iTrader: (1)

Do a oil pump. i did a melling high volume pump when the cam was done. Worth the peice of mind and its off anyway.

tommycompton

iTrader: (1)

And of course a new timing set (ls2), with added spring pressures it would be wise.

ryridesmotox

The only reason is say go speed density is to eliminate the MAF because a CAI will skew MAF readings. Which makes it harder to tune because of the fluctuation of the MAFhz. Also you pick up a few ponies without the screen there... Especially after the k&n is on there... Let it breathe baby...noh and the MAF sensor (at least in my experience) is the most unreliable POS on earth. The only problems I have ever had with tuning my car was from MAF issues. Whether they were dirty or bad. In my last car I carried an extra MAF and some electronic cleaner in my glovebox.

vmapper

iTrader: (8)

Removing MAF screen = bad idea, the purpose of the screen, well documented by logs, is to straighten the airflow for a better constant g/sec read. I purposely add various screens to large tubes (3.5-5") setups to ensure the air is not tumbling through the straight portion - also key, 6' away from bends.
the MAF is very reliable when there is air movement, the MAF actually measures the AIR density, while other sensors only calculate it. your experience must not include the fact that most if not all Ford guys use MAFS without issue (though their MAFS use voltage, not frequency), regardles GM still uses MAFs Hz successfully (hence the blend VE / Dynamic stock setup on these cars), fluctuations is due to LACK of a screen during higher air flow OR too big of an intake tube where air velocity is incredibly slow at IDLE. (MAFS need movement).

Tuning the MAF is not that difficult, but it is if other things are such as IFR (injector flow rates) or other tables which use these calculations are off...
Dont blame the MAF, but rather, inexperience/lack of undesrtanding how it all works... (which is not an insult, just saying, there are details to be learned)
With all that being said, there are OTHER reasons +s and -s going SD. (but nothing to do with MAF sensors 'sucking'.

If you want some hardcore details, Redhardsupra or any other vetrains on HPTuners can give you details..

vmapper

iTrader: (8)

OP - you may want to add lifters / timing chain w that cam choice, Biggie mentioned High Volume pump.
or you could do, or HP/HV. The big pans on these cars dont cause cavitation or starving the pan.

ryridesmotox

Like I said in my previous post... In my last car I had THE WORST luck with maf sensors. The car it was on, lnf turbo, for some reason was a pain. Stock, tuned, built, mafs and maps all sucked. The maf on the cobalt came stock as screen less and it was tuned like that it and ran fine most of the time... Then it got swapped to the Charged pipe for the turbo swappage that I was going to do. It actually worked fine even though it was in pressure charged pipe. But even after that, about 60k miles with it tuned... I still would have to pop it out and clean it or replace it every 15k or so. Since most cobalts had the same issue I assume it could have been an issue with GM's mafs. I had maf codes and miss fires with 5000 miles on a bone stock car. That's why I put "(in my experience)" in my last post. Because in my experience MAF sensors blow dogs for quarters and if you can live without it, take it out. I actually helped a company Treadstone, do their stuff on the cobalt, an requested that they put an air straightening screen in their CAI to help with fuel trims on LNFs with stock tunes... Which were HORRIBLE when you put any intake on the car. The computer would run the motor so bad it was ridiculous. The air straightener helped out a ton for sure. You are absolutely correct, I have many logs on my computer of different cobalt intakes and how HORRIBLY they skewed ltft and stft readings. But if you can tune without it, I don't see a need for it. Most of the stuff I learned I read off the HP forums... The other stuff was little trial and error, watching the acceleration timing in frame and such to calculate if I was doing any good with timing or fuel changes (not while driving lol).

vmapper

iTrader: (8)

"Stock, tuned, built, mafs and maps all sucked"?, interesting... crappy i guess...

MAFS can work both as PULL or PUSH through using FI. Ive done both.
Cleaning is part of the regular maintenance for a MAF, especially when using an OIL type filter, this is not a secret.

As for the reason why LTFT and STFTs would suck after a cold air intake install? ...

Greg Banish shows in his first DVD release Calibrated for Success (a GM calibrator), that simply changing the stock filter to a K&N changes the readings done by the MAF (If I remember, his example changes by 7%, requiring a re-calibration of the MAF curve... from just a FILTER! Trailblazer SS.
Changing pipes and installing CAIs would be no different, this is because you have changed the dynamics of the air in the intake. Re-Calibration is required. End of story! Period. Chaning the diameter of pipe, same thing. (you have altered flow rate.. you have to re calibrate the MAF.

Once calibrated, the only change is the air density itself, if dialed in.. should run like a top.
Not calibrating the MAF when changing ANY part of the intake run, skews you away from 'ideal' and remember; factory MAF curve places you somewhat away from that 'ideal' already. I call it delta.

MAFS are useful, as they actually see air density... very accurate with velocity, especially with changes (e.g. elevations)

For boost, Im not so much a fan of MAF, they cant 'see' boost. that's the job for a MAP sensor. Then you can leverage off of BE... but that's a separate discussion....

Cheers

ryridesmotox

Oh yea I think the worst skew on a drop in K&N I saw on the ol cobalt turbos was like 12% stft... But again the cobalt turbo didn't use an air straightener honeycomb for the maf. There are some intakes that will skew the cobalt up to 25% stft which is fairly catastrophic just for an intake. Ideally in my opinion you just remove the whole sensor and do a SD tune... But you do make excellent points. The MAF is a great sensor on NA motors. I even used a pull through as a push through, which technically it shouldn't have been able to do but it took it like a champ even though i was throwing 26psi througb it. Just leveled the tables and used the fuel adjustments to help compensate for the E85. DI motors are a bitch with the injection windows and such. The LS motors seem so much easier. (Knock on wood so the fates don't nuke my motor for no reason)

I think the MAF can dial the fuel in better under like part throttle and is more smooth around town and such. But that is just what my butt and log has shown... That could be total bs on my part. I have been told I am full of it more than once lol

And you are correct once its tuned and calibrated its fine. Mine was fine but in my opinion it was too much of a pain to get in and clean every month. I wonder if the lack of a straightener had anything to do with that... Hmmm something I didn't think about til just now

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

There is no reason to go to an SD tune on a cam only car. Especially by someone who has never tuned before.

DMM

^ This for sure. If you have an 04-05 stick with the OE MAF, including screen. It will not hinder performance. If you have an 06-07, you can step up to the LS7 card style, the 04-05 MAF tables don;t have enough resolution in them for this sensor though, that's why I said ti stick with the OE.

What Wideband do you have? I have HP Tuners as well and tune my own stuff...I'm no expert, but I have figured out quite a bit for a "novice". A few others here on this board tune themselves also and can help out if you post your tunes and logs.

VScharesV

I bought an AEM w/b o2 sensor. I got Banishs book and dvd also to help with the tuning. So I should stick with the MAF tune.

What is tthe benefits of the ls2 timing chain? Is it thicker?

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

Ls2 timing chain is a little stronger and for $50 its cheap insurance.

VScharesV

Can I use my ls6 cam gear with the ls2 timing chain and do I need a dampener? Thanks!