Naf

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for the info.

I will check everythin on sunday after a full batt charge

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

Success! The final solution is V1 UCAs with STS ball joints, STS aluminum control arms, CTS lower control arms, and trimmed tie rods. No LCA slot enlargement required. The key piece of information that was missing was that the STS ball joints can be press-fit into the V1 UCAs--they're the same diameter. Our assumption all along was that this was impossible, based on the assumption that the V2 ball joint OD (which is different than the V1 ball joint) was the same as the STS ball joint OD.

Testing with the STS and V2 UCAs revealed that neither UCA can provide an acceptable range of adjustment on the V1. The closest I was able to get to an acceptable negative camber angle (-1.5 to -2.1) was -1.60 with the STS UCAs (which are too long) and -2.70 with the V2 UCAs (which are too short). These adjustments were at the extremes of the range of adjustment on the V1, and even then, they were only possible because I spent a bunch of time painstakingly lengthening the lower control arm slots with a Dremel, polish, and POR-15 paint. This I did to the limit of safety (tearout stress or contact between the LCA and the inner structural members of the front subframe).

Obviously, the good news is that this solution doesn't require spending any more money on our part. The bad news is that we spent a bunch of money and time arriving at this solution. This is par for the course--people that solve the problem pay the price so that everyone else can get there cheaper, neater, and faster. So, I hope to see a lot of V1s with this modification.

For those interested, this thing kicked off in 09/2013 on the CadillacForums when I launched a project to try and fit the aluminum V2 spindle to the V1. The reason for wanting to do this was straightforward: the cast iron spindles in the V1 were several pounds heavier than their aluminum counterparts. As we all know, unsprung weight reduction is a big deal on all cars because of the ride quality and handling benefits. Unfortunately, when we went to try and fit these things on our cars, a myriad of design differences preventing us from installing V2 spindles on V1s became obvious.

But in the process of figuring that out, TimmyC--one random STS-V owner that we haven't seen or heard of since--identified that the base model STS also had an aluminum spindle, which much more similar to the V1 spindle.

The primary problem with adopting this spindle adopting the upper retaining bolt, which differs from the pinch bolt used in the base model CTS and CTS-V1 spindle design. The assumption (which turned out to be a mistake) was that the V1 upper control arm would have to be replaced with a STS or V2 UCA. Back then, I didn't have the tools I have today--most notably a hydraulic press--and no idea that ball joints were a replaceable item.

To address the issue, Naf and I bought V2 upper control arms, because they looked similar to the V1 upper control arm (as compared to the STS control arm, which looked very different). When I went to refurbish the used ball joints in the set of V2 UCAs I bought, I found that the V2 ball joint was a different diameter than the V1 ball joint. So my assumption was that GM had switched to a different ball joint diameter when they moved to the inverted fastener design, and that adopting any COTS aluminum spindle would require a V2 or STS UCA to be adopted to the V1.

Naf was the first to attempt the installation. He posted pictures on my forum showing his work on enlarging the slots, the STS spindle and V2 UCA install, and identified that the steering tie rods needed to be shorter because of the location of the STS spindle mounting provisions. This brings us up to recent times, where I came out of hibernation and started getting caught up on my backlog. The rest of the story is shown above. I've taken a few hundred pictures of the process, but those will have to wait until I have time to work on my site. The pictures aren't that dramatic--lengthening the slots in the front subframe was the most photogenic part of the process (lots of sparks, 2 dead Dremels), and now that cutting into the subframe is not required, I doubt those pictures will ever make their way online.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

Awesome! Nice work. I'll be going in this direction for sure and now have renewed interest in finally rebuilding the tired front end on my V1.

Even if you do nothing more than post a link to your forum, this deserves a thread of its own.

Thanks!

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

My earlier post was just a quick hack job. More will come when I have more time (it'll probably take a couple of months before I've got that much time). I'm focused on clearing out my CTS-V hardware backlog and those mods have priority over posting online.

An installation guide shouldn't isn't required for this modification, but there are a couple of pitfalls (e.g. needing to trim your tie rods, needing longer brake caliper bolts) that will slow you down if you don't know about them ahead of time. If worst comes to worst, this mod will be sitting in your garage for longer than you planned.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

I'm glad you found a solution and look forward to your more detailed write up. I don't know how you have time to do anything with all the stuff you've done to your car.

This is why I've always preferred working on GM vehicles....never seen this sort of mechanical flexibility on other makes except the older Hondas. Thanks again.....

Naf

iTrader: (1)

Well, it could be a plug and play kit...

You need to order the spindles from baer, and tie rod ends, then you dont have to cut any of your components...

http://baer.com/Tracker-Tie-Rod-Ends/

I will chat with Rick, and see if they will make two kits for us, one for the STS spindle upgrade and the other for normal ppl.

This way when you lower your car, you keep the geometry on the steering correct, and you are also getting great quality products...

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

Fuzzy what is the final weight loss per side?

Also, look at all those grease zerks

Naf

iTrader: (1)

If i remember correctly, about 4.5lb ea side.

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

4.4 lbs per side. I have a complete secondary set of suspension with wheel bearings, so I took the CTS-V front spindle (with wheel bearing) and STS front spindle (with wheel bearing) and weighed them. The CTS-V assembly weighed 22.2 lbs and the STS assembly weighed 17.8 lbs.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

And the sts is heavier than the v by 544lb so it will hold up to our punishment...

Sssnake

Good find! I just order a couple of STS spindles off of Ebay. It appears the part has been discontinued... Do you have the part number for the ball joint and flare nut? Most of my searches show the UCA sold as a single unit.

THANKS!

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

The highest quality upper control arm ball joint is the Moog K500065. Comes with a grease zerk and nut with nonmarring floating flange. The price on this thing keeps getting higher (they're $50 each on Amazon now--used to be $36)--I think Naf and I bought out most of the available stock.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00498ZRAC/

There might be cheaper options but this is what I use. I also put a pinhole in each boot and flush each ball joint with Honda Moly 60 (excessive for most applications). FWIW, here's the cheaper (two for $50) ball joint option:

2 Front Upper Ball Joint for Cadillac STS 05 10 | eBay

Sssnake

Thanks! I will stick with the Moogs as I just redid the entire front end with Moogs after having a lower ball joint break stranding me in NC before I even had a chance to hit the Dragon.

One more request... Is the larger conical seat recommended and if so do you have a part number?

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

The larger, deeper conical seat is used in the CTS-V2. The STS spindles require the shallower STS seat that comes with both of the above ball joint options linked above.

While we're taking miscellaneous components, don't forget to get four M14x2.0-55mm or -60mm Class 10.9 flange bolts. There's a very expensive GM part (11570788) that measures 55mm in length with a great coating, or you can get five black oxide 60mm bolts here:

Class 10.9 Steel Cap Screw, Phosphate & Oil Finish, Hex Head, External Hex Drive, Meets DIN 6921, 60mm Length, Partially Threaded, M14-2 Metric Coarse Threads (Pack of 5): Cap Screws And Hex Bolts: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Sssnake

Again - THANKS! Parts are ordered.

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

so the short parts list is?

Ball joints
Knuckles
Bolts?
I assume you can reuse outter tie rods.

Done?

isis

iTrader: (1)

Off topic but Jeep and Subaru are quite interchangeable too.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

The bottom ball joint is Moog K80635 ball joint, right?

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

Correct--that's the ball joint I used to refresh my lower control arms. If your LCA ball joints are good, I wouldn't consider buying these a "required" step in the process.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

Kewl...

I am so bored waitin for someone to finish my car that i an startin to experiment with my supermoto...

Gonna put on a ported 450sxf top end with cam on my 500exc, should boost the power curve well over 60hp.

The 450 supposedly makes 60hp while the 500 makes 58hp...doesnt sound right to me either, 60cc larger and makes less power...someone needs a cam and head swap stat!