Info to eliminate DOD?
12-09-2009, 10:56 AM
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Info to eliminate DOD? A friend and I are installing an ' 05 all-aluminum LH6 5.3 and 4L60E in his ' 51 Ford pickup. Unfortunately, we didn't do enough research before we bought the engine and we got an engine with all the DOD hardware. We are using an earlier intake, #411 PCM and harness. What HAS to be changed on the engine itself?
We have done away with the original oil pan and will use an F-body pan. We also have an LS2 valley cover with the o-ring seals. Do we have to change the pressure relief spring in the oil pump? I know everyone usually changes out the 8 special de-activating lifters, but my question is...does this HAVE to be done for the engine to run properly. We would like to be able to start the engine and use it for a while as is to make sure it is a good sound engine before going to the expense of new head gaskets and bolts and new lifters.
Would really like to hear from someone who has done this. Will go to the expense now , if this is going to cause problems with lifters collapsing or other drivability problems. Thanks, Ron
We have done away with the original oil pan and will use an F-body pan. We also have an LS2 valley cover with the o-ring seals. Do we have to change the pressure relief spring in the oil pump? I know everyone usually changes out the 8 special de-activating lifters, but my question is...does this HAVE to be done for the engine to run properly. We would like to be able to start the engine and use it for a while as is to make sure it is a good sound engine before going to the expense of new head gaskets and bolts and new lifters.
Would really like to hear from someone who has done this. Will go to the expense now , if this is going to cause problems with lifters collapsing or other drivability problems. Thanks, Ron
12-09-2009, 11:19 AM
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Thanks for the reply, but if you go back and READ my post, you'll see that we are using an earlier (as in 2001) intake,injectors,PCM and harness. This keeps us from just "turning it off in the computer ", but you may be right about not having to change anything. I had read that since the oil pump put out more pressure and volume that it would cause the lifters to gradually de-activate. That is reason for this thread. Ron
Last edited by rojs234; 12-09-2009 at 11:29 AM. Reason: added to it
12-09-2009, 07:10 PM
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Thanks for the reply, but if you go back and READ my post, you'll see that we are using an earlier (as in 2001) intake,injectors,PCM and harness. This keeps us from just "turning it off in the computer ", but you may be right about not having to change anything. I had read that since the oil pump put out more pressure and volume that it would cause the lifters to gradually de-activate. That is reason for this thread. Ron
Since you have to swap the intake, just remove the heads and bite the bullet, remove the AFM lifters. Be good ins. I have heard of several that have failed just on stock trucks.
12-10-2009, 03:42 AM
#5
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You shouldn't need to do anything with the engine to use it provided the DOD lifters and the "VLOM" (the valley cover with the solenoids and oil feeds to the DOD lifters) are in normal working order.
GM uses DOD engines in some cars with the DOD not used.
But........never heard of any 24X DOD motors. Your LS1 PCM will only run a 24X motor.
Recommend checking the crank sensor and making sure it is made of black plastic. If it is gray, it is a 58X motor, and you need to change the crank reluctor or use a Lingenfelter 58 > 24X convertor.
Maybe the truck this came from ran an E40 24x ECM. If so it will have a front cam sensor vs the LS1 rear cam sensor.
GM uses DOD engines in some cars with the DOD not used.
But........never heard of any 24X DOD motors. Your LS1 PCM will only run a 24X motor.
Recommend checking the crank sensor and making sure it is made of black plastic. If it is gray, it is a 58X motor, and you need to change the crank reluctor or use a Lingenfelter 58 > 24X convertor.
Maybe the truck this came from ran an E40 24x ECM. If so it will have a front cam sensor vs the LS1 rear cam sensor.
12-10-2009, 10:17 AM
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You shouldn't need to do anything with the engine to use it provided the DOD lifters and the "VLOM" (the valley cover with the solenoids and oil feeds to the DOD lifters) are in normal working order.
GM uses DOD engines in some cars with the DOD not used.
But........never heard of any 24X DOD motors. Your LS1 PCM will only run a 24X motor.
Recommend checking the crank sensor and making sure it is made of black plastic. If it is gray, it is a 58X motor, and you need to change the crank reluctor or use a Lingenfelter 58 > 24X convertor.
Maybe the truck this came from ran an E40 24x ECM. If so it will have a front cam sensor vs the LS1 rear cam sensor.
GM uses DOD engines in some cars with the DOD not used.
But........never heard of any 24X DOD motors. Your LS1 PCM will only run a 24X motor.
Recommend checking the crank sensor and making sure it is made of black plastic. If it is gray, it is a 58X motor, and you need to change the crank reluctor or use a Lingenfelter 58 > 24X convertor.
Maybe the truck this came from ran an E40 24x ECM. If so it will have a front cam sensor vs the LS1 rear cam sensor.
Guy that programed the PCM was worried about this also. We checked the crank sensor, and it is in fact BLACK. He checked the Vin # and it is an ' 05
HL6 and should be a 24X reluctor engine. His sources say the 58X on the HL6 started one year later. We are at the point of pulling the engine back out to change the pan to the F-body pan, (the truck pan we tried to use hung down too far) and to do whatever is necessary to eliminate the DOD, so I guess we will know absolutely whether it is 24X.
The F-body pan will eliminate the special (extra) regulator that the DOD's have, but will the LS2 valley cover (it's made for the o-rings) completely shut off the oil passages that normally supply the oil that de-activates the special lifters or do I have to do any internal modifications?
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12-10-2009, 11:11 AM
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Russ, the engine in my ' 34 Ford street rod is an aluminum 6.0 Gen lV block that was apparently a DOD block to start with. It has an LS2 valley cover that is smooth on top except for the little tube for the crankcase breather system. Since that engine is carbed, I block it with a parts store rubber cap. My PCV system consists of a breather where the oil fill cap fits on the passenger side and a parts store PCV valve on the fitting at the back of the driver side(it's baffled iside the valve cover). This does a good job of venting crankcase. I didn't build this particular engine, but I have had the valley cover off and it HAS the o-rings in place. It does have a non-stock cam and lifters and the Corvette style pan. I bought one of the Wegner Motorsports valley covers with the breather welded into the front, but couldn't use it because it didn't have the fitting or boss or whatever you call it for the oil pressure guage or sender at the back that the Gen lV's use. It also didn't have the places for the o-rings IF you are sealing off the towers, you could probably make and use a flat plate if you also plugged the passage at the back and then drilled and tapped the part down by the oil filter that a lot of guys do on the LS1's when installing aftermarket guages
Last edited by rojs234; 12-11-2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason: added to it
12-10-2009, 01:27 PM
#10
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The LS3/LS2 style valley cover will work. It has rubber seals to block off the towers and no drilling and tapping will need to be done. This same cover will also delete the oil passage that went to the original solenoids that operated the DOD. The oil pump is also larger on a DOD engine and may make for higher than desired oil pressure.
To completely and properly delete all vestiges of the DOD system, you need to do the following:
Replace the valley cover with a LS3/LS2 style valley cover, including seals for the towers.
Replace the lifters and retaining trays with the current Gen 4 lifters from GM (LS7)
Replace the cam with the LS3 style cam with 3 retaining bolts instead of the single bolt that was used on the DOD and VVT type engines.
Replace the cam sprocket with the LS3 style one..
Replace the oil pump with a conventional capacity pump (Melling)
In order to change the lifters, you will need to remove the heads, which will require new head bolts, so pop for a set of ARP bolts, as they can be reused.
New head gaskets are required, but all other gaskets can be re-used.
If you go with a performance cam, you probably want to consider replacing the stock springs with some dual performance springs
Yes, you must replace the lifters, as without the oil pressure feeding them, they will stay collapsed.
You do not have to replace the cam, but the choice of single bolt cams is very limited, and while you have the engine apart is is a good time to step up the power with a decent cam.
Regards, John McGraw
To completely and properly delete all vestiges of the DOD system, you need to do the following:
Replace the valley cover with a LS3/LS2 style valley cover, including seals for the towers.
Replace the lifters and retaining trays with the current Gen 4 lifters from GM (LS7)
Replace the cam with the LS3 style cam with 3 retaining bolts instead of the single bolt that was used on the DOD and VVT type engines.
Replace the cam sprocket with the LS3 style one..
Replace the oil pump with a conventional capacity pump (Melling)
In order to change the lifters, you will need to remove the heads, which will require new head bolts, so pop for a set of ARP bolts, as they can be reused.
New head gaskets are required, but all other gaskets can be re-used.
If you go with a performance cam, you probably want to consider replacing the stock springs with some dual performance springs
Yes, you must replace the lifters, as without the oil pressure feeding them, they will stay collapsed.
You do not have to replace the cam, but the choice of single bolt cams is very limited, and while you have the engine apart is is a good time to step up the power with a decent cam.
Regards, John McGraw
Last edited by John McGraw; 12-10-2009 at 01:33 PM.
12-10-2009, 04:22 PM
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* John McGraw * Thank you for the reply. I know that every thing you listed is probably the proper way to do the job. However, the young friend I am trying to help with this is on a tight budget, and since we don't even know yet if this engine is a sound prospect, he really hates to spend the money for head gaskets, bolts lifters, etc. This is not a racer, just a fun truck to drive and keep up with the rice burners, LOL. To your comment about no oil pressure colaping the lifters....the one thing that I thought I understood about these engines was that they require the EXTRA PRESSURE and VOLUME to collapse the special lifters.The solenoids put extra oil to de-activate them and shut off the oil to let them extend back to the normal position. I thought that was the purpose of the extra regulator in the pan and the higher volume and higher pressure pump. I THOUGHT all I had to change was the oil pan to get rid of the extra regulator and change the valley cover to the LS2 style with the o-rings to shut off the passages. I didn't know if I needed to change the relief spring in the oil pump to keep from having excess oil pressure. Anybody else want to jump in here?? Ron
12-10-2009, 05:36 PM
#12
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* John McGraw * Thank you for the reply. I know that every thing you listed is probably the proper way to do the job. However, the young friend I am trying to help with this is on a tight budget, and since we don't even know yet if this engine is a sound prospect, he really hates to spend the money for head gaskets, bolts lifters, etc. This is not a racer, just a fun truck to drive and keep up with the rice burners, LOL. To your comment about no oil pressure colaping the lifters....the one thing that I thought I understood about these engines was that they require the EXTRA PRESSURE and VOLUME to collapse the special lifters.The solenoids put extra oil to de-activate them and shut off the oil to let them extend back to the normal position. I thought that was the purpose of the extra regulator in the pan and the higher volume and higher pressure pump. I THOUGHT all I had to change was the oil pan to get rid of the extra regulator and change the valley cover to the LS2 style with the o-rings to shut off the passages. I didn't know if I needed to change the relief spring in the oil pump to keep from having excess oil pressure. Anybody else want to jump in here?? Ron
You are correct in your understanding of the DEAC lifters used with DOD/AFM.
As you note they do not require oil pressure to operate normally. They require oil pressure, fed to them via the VLOM valley cover, with 4 solenoids and oil pressure feed galleries via the valley towers cast into the block to go into DEAC mode and deactiviate 4 cylinders by leaving the valves in those cylinders on their seats.
It sounds like you have a non DOD LS2/LS7 valley cover. If you do, this is all you need if you want to use it. Leaving the regular DOD VLOM valley cover in place achieves the same, but, the solenoids in the valley cover are controlled leakage solenoids and do flow some oil even in normal mode (according to GM anyway.)
Re the oil pump, if you have the hi volume oil pump usually used in DOD engines (there are GenIV engines with DOD hardware and stock volume pumps), then there is a very good chance you will see much higher oil pressure than you need especially if you have changed the pan and no longer have the pan based DOD regulator, and especially at cold start. If the motor has done a lot of miles, this may be less of a problem. The DOD pump has around 30% more displacement and volume pumping ability than the stock pump.
You wont know until you run it. A stock GM oil pump could be used for the lowest cost route to work around this potential issue.
The motor is clearly an '05 if it is 24X with black crank sensor, and E40 ECM's for that year handled DOD/AFM.
As an '05 it should have a 3 bolt cam. Single bolt cams were intro'd for '06 and VVT with 58X and E38 ECM's. So you shouldn't need to worry about the cam.
Trust this helps you achieve your objectives to get your buddy up and running.
12-10-2009, 05:45 PM
#13
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* John McGraw * Thank you for the reply. I know that every thing you listed is probably the proper way to do the job. However, the young friend I am trying to help with this is on a tight budget, and since we don't even know yet if this engine is a sound prospect, he really hates to spend the money for head gaskets, bolts lifters, etc. This is not a racer, just a fun truck to drive and keep up with the rice burners, LOL. To your comment about no oil pressure colaping the lifters....the one thing that I thought I understood about these engines was that they require the EXTRA PRESSURE and VOLUME to collapse the special lifters.The solenoids put extra oil to de-activate them and shut off the oil to let them extend back to the normal position. I thought that was the purpose of the extra regulator in the pan and the higher volume and higher pressure pump. I THOUGHT all I had to change was the oil pan to get rid of the extra regulator and change the valley cover to the LS2 style with the o-rings to shut off the passages. I didn't know if I needed to change the relief spring in the oil pump to keep from having excess oil pressure. Anybody else want to jump in here?? Ron
You are correct in your understanding of the DEAC lifters used with DOD/AFM.
As you note they do not require oil pressure to operate normally. They require oil pressure, fed to them via the VLOM valley cover, with 4 solenoids and oil pressure feed galleries via the valley towers cast into the block to go into DEAC mode and deactiviate 4 cylinders by leaving the valves in those cylinders on their seats.
It sounds like you have a non DOD LS2/LS7 valley cover. If you do, this is all you need if you want to use it. Leaving the regular DOD VLOM valley cover in place achieves the same, but, the solenoids in the valley cover are controlled leakage solenoids and do flow some oil even in normal mode (according to GM anyway.)
Re the oil pump, if you have the hi volume oil pump usually used in DOD engines (there are GenIV engines with DOD hardware and stock volume pumps), then there is a very good chance you will see much higher oil pressure than you need especially if you have changed the pan and no longer have the pan based DOD regulator, and especially at cold start. If the motor has done a lot of miles, this may be less of a problem. The DOD pump has around 30% more displacement and volume pumping ability than the stock pump.
You wont know until you run it. A stock GM oil pump could be used for the lowest cost route to work around this potential issue.
The motor is clearly an '05 if it is 24X with black crank sensor, and E40 ECM's for that year handled DOD/AFM.
As an '05 it should have a 3 bolt cam. Single bolt cams were intro'd for '06 and VVT with 58X and E38 ECM's. So you shouldn't need to worry about the cam.
Trust this helps you achieve your objectives to get your buddy up and running.
12-10-2009, 10:08 PM
#14
Apologies again, I thought there was a notch in the cover for the OP sender... So ya'll are saying the sender threads through the plate into the block?
Can anyone post top and bottom shots of the various covers that fit on the Gen IV blocks? My block is an '08 Escalade 6.2L and I'll be carbed and wanting a flat (bumpless) cover...
Can anyone post top and bottom shots of the various covers that fit on the Gen IV blocks? My block is an '08 Escalade 6.2L and I'll be carbed and wanting a flat (bumpless) cover...
12-10-2009, 10:21 PM
#15
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Thanks for correcting my incorrect info on the lifters guys. I just always assumed that the oil pressure was necessary to deactivate the lifters. I just removed them on my engine and replaced with the LS7 lifters to take one more possible failure item out of the chain.
Regards, John McGraw.
Regards, John McGraw.
12-10-2009, 10:23 PM
#16
TECH Regular
Apologies again, I thought there was a notch in the cover for the OP sender... So ya'll are saying the sender threads through the plate into the block?
Can anyone post top and bottom shots of the various covers that fit on the Gen IV blocks? My block is an '08 Escalade 6.2L and I'll be carbed and wanting a flat (bumpless) cover...
Can anyone post top and bottom shots of the various covers that fit on the Gen IV blocks? My block is an '08 Escalade 6.2L and I'll be carbed and wanting a flat (bumpless) cover...
Regards, John McGraw
12-11-2009, 10:11 AM
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I'm very interested in this as I plan to run my DoD engine the same way. Here is a link that may help.. pretty sure both guys mentioned are or have been on this forum if you search DoD. I see rsz288 has already chimed in, he turned up in a lot of the posts when I searched DoD.
I was planning on the fbody oil pan and LS2 valley cover only. Only thing I haven't come across is any issues with the high volume oil pump.
http://kwikperf.com/blog/category/di...emand-problems
I was planning on the fbody oil pan and LS2 valley cover only. Only thing I haven't come across is any issues with the high volume oil pump.
http://kwikperf.com/blog/category/di...emand-problems
12-11-2009, 10:41 AM
#18
I'm very interested in this as I plan to run my DoD engine the same way. Here is a link that may help.. pretty sure both guys mentioned are or have been on this forum if you search DoD. I see rsz288 has already chimed in, he turned up in a lot of the posts when I searched DoD.
I was planning on the fbody oil pan and LS2 valley cover only. Only thing I haven't come across is any issues with the high volume oil pump.
http://kwikperf.com/blog/category/di...emand-problems
I was planning on the fbody oil pan and LS2 valley cover only. Only thing I haven't come across is any issues with the high volume oil pump.
http://kwikperf.com/blog/category/di...emand-problems
12-11-2009, 11:46 AM
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** rsz288 ** I REALLY want to thank you for coming back in and explaining the lifters. I was so confused last night that I spent some time searching for the thread where I had gotten that info. Lo and behold, I found it in a thread by ** Geezer's Garage ** titled *5.3 LH6 Progress and Problems *. It was then I discovered that YOU were one of the main ones providing the info in that thread, so thanks both times!! Now an update...I talked to my friend and he found Fel-Pro head gaskets and GM bolts somewhere at what seemed like a very reasonable price. We already had the Vortec lifters and the Gen lV plastic retainers because at first we thought that was all we needed to change. I had one of those " senior moments " and even though I have a 6.0 engine, I had forgotten you have to pull the heads to change lifters. Lost in the past I guess, LOL. Anyway, as it stands now, we're going to change pans (f-body), change to LS2 vally cover with the o-rings (smooth top), change lifters, plastic retainers, head gaskets, and bolts. Anything else? Anybody know how much oil pressure (guage) we'll see with the DOD oil pump? Is it possible to access the relief spring in the pump when I pull the pan or would I have to pull front cover? Thought I might see if normal 5.3 had different relief spring. After posting this, I read the post from **ErikSOCAL**, and after checking the link he provided, I wonder if this engine might have the normal oil pump? It is out of a midsize Envoy SUV. Anybody know if I could tell by Vin# or possibly a number on the pump itself or a color code on pump or releif spring?? Thanks again to everyone, Ron
Last edited by rojs234; 12-11-2009 at 12:14 PM. Reason: added more to it
12-11-2009, 03:04 PM
#20
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You know, I'll bet that the ARP bolts are not much more than the stock GM bolts, and you won't have to buy a torque angle gauge to tighten them properly. The ARP bolts just have a torque setting and not the angle like stock torque-to-yield bolts. Just a thought.
Regards, John McGraw
Regards, John McGraw