futureuser

iTrader: (1)

The dude with the stick shift red 68 and me, will would probably tell you that the stock rod bolts are fine. I'm about to raise my rev limiter and borrow a friends 90mm plate with a 125 shot in the next few weeks if you want to see a stock LY6 with a cam swap in the high 10's. I really think if you check everything you'll be fine. My friends at Vengeance were much more worried about the stock timing chain and valve springs then rod bolts.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Tony I hope I didn't come off the wrong way in my last posts. I genuinely wasn't aware and wanted to ask why some of these things should be replaced. Thanks for pointing out the ring clocking concerns and the info around refusing main and rod bolts. I have a lot of research to do now before I make decisions on what to replace and how. Thanks for the continued support and advise.

85MikeTPI

iTrader: (9)

Good luck dude.. This is exactly the same path I'm down deep into now with my L92.. I've got several thousand dollars worth of new hardware, gaskets, upgraded parts waiting for the new pistons and rods to all go into the freshly studded and honed block. It all started with one worn cam bearing where the VVT cam gets it oil feed from and it was scope creep from then on..

85MikeTPI

iTrader: (9)

While you're talking about TTY, I just wanted to remind you that the
VVT cam bolt/valve is TTY also.. Make sure you have a new one on hand
when time to stab in the new bumb stick..

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

No sweat man, I didnt want you to think I was trying to tell you what ought to be done with your engine. Trust me I am having my own battles with engines at this moment. Just when everything is going your way and you see light, something sucks you right back down where you began.

I would almost be tempted if I were you to just clean up the visible rust with the engine upside down and something plugging the lifter bores off and roll with it. Like you said, the money costs grow exponentially from here. I think everything else would have had a coat of oil on it and should be fine. You could pull the oil pan off and take a peek around. If no signs of rust are in there(the lowest point) then you should be fine.

bitterman

Dude! Sorry to see!

At least when you are in there it will give youthe excuse to up the compression, shave the heads etc etc to make even more RWHP!

Now I am worried about my swap motor I took off the valve cover last fall and pored oil down there on both sides, Tuned ofer the engine a feiw times and also put some oil in each cylander and turned it over again. Sitting is one of the worth things for an engine!!!!

I hope you back to it and up and running very soon! I'd love to put flatop pistons in my motor and 0.041 head gaskets to go up from the 9.67:1 compression raio to help fatten out the torque curve.

Bruce

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

I flipped the engine over and took some photos of the top of the windage tray and the rotating assembly in two crank positions. Of course I'm going to disassemble and inspect further, but what do you think of what I'm seeing so far? Major cause for alarm or won't know until I look further?

















Given the amount of rust here, I am definitely pulling the rotating assembly for a careful inspection and thorough cleaning at a minimum. I really hope the rust hasn't caused pitting anywhere or damage to the journals, because the replacement stroker rotating assembly is going to be a real battle with finance.

Tony I talked to a few engine builders about reusing piston rings and all agreed the rings will rotate on their own during engine operation and clocking the the exact position isn't critical. They did heavily emphasize the importance of getting the pistons and rods back into the same cylinders they came out of.

As another note, I was advised against using number punches to number the rods because with powdered metal rods, they can cause stress fractures. A scribe is recommended instead.

bczee

iTrader: (12)

Clint.. hope that it is mostly sureface rust.. but I would question why all of the water was in there and why in the 1st place? any Cracks in the block or blowen head gaskets ?

But hopefully a quick clean up, new bearings, ring and you can be on your way!

BC

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

I agree with you on the complete tear down. At least you will know for sure the extent of the damage if any. How many miles are on the engine? Are the pistons notched for the foward position? If not make sure you mark that as well so that the chamfer side of the rod is in the correct position. I hope when the caps come off everything is clean. I am not too keen on the main caps for these engines as they can be installed off center from the journals if caution is not used. I use a feeler gage to locate them fron to back.

Turtle Bite

iTrader: (3)

Good idea on the holding tool, I need to make one from a spare LQ4 flexplate. Bummer on the bottom end rust. Looks like its in/ around the rod bearings. I pressure washed my LQ4 like you did yours and despite all the plugs and tape still got some water in the pan and intake. I tore my motor down the same day so it was not a problem for me.

I think alot of people go overboard freshening up stock motors. I would replace the lifters since there cheap. GM headgaskets are cheap and proven, why switch. ARP head bolts because nothing sucks more than throwing out $90 worth of TTY headbolts than having to do it a second time. Inspect the rod bearings and crank journals, polish the crank if it neads it. The stock rod bolts are fine- the early 97-98 LS1 rod bolts were an issue and everyone has been replaceing them since. The stock bolts should be just fine unless you plan on spinning your motor to 7500 routinely. Better to use the stock bolts then use ARP or Katech and not resize the rods. Just my opinion.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

I haven't seen any signs of cracks of headgasket failures. When I originally got the engine, I drained the small amount of remaining oil from the engine and it was clean. I think water got in when I cleaned the engine and had the last year to fester into rust.

The engine had about 60k miles on it. I don't remember the exact number but it's somewhere in the first post of this thread. I did compression and leakdown tests with good results. The pistons do have dots to show the forward position. I also have the "How to rebuild LS engines" SA design book which explains the directionality of the rods, so I'm sure I can get these back in the correct directions.

The teardown continues. First I used a very small amount of brake clean, a nylon brush and towels to clean the piston tops, bringing companion cylinders to TDC prior to cleaning. Then I marked each piston top with black sharpie.



Next I rotated the engine over on the stand and one by-one removed the piston-rod assemblies. After loosening a pair of rod bolts, I tapped on their ends to separate the caps from the rods. In this picture you can see one of the unique fracture interfaces.



Because there was no ridge whatsoever at the tops of the bores, I was able to push the pistons out by hand and catch them on the other side.



Below is what a typical rod journal looked like just after cap removal. They were all wet with an oil-water-rust mixture, but for the most part the journals looked good where the rod bearings contacted. But there are lines of rust going around between the two rods on each journal. None of the bearings or journals show signs of scuffing or scratching.



I did make several concerning observations going through this. Please let me know what you think. First, the #7 rod had a considerable amount of rust on the thrust surface.



Next, I found two rod bearings with some black discoloration like this one. I'm not sure if it's pitted or just discolored.



Finally, there was some concerning rust on either side of the bottom of this cylinder bore.





Here's what things looked like with all the pistons out.



I carefully laid all the piston-rod assemblies into this plastic container, adding some backup markings on the bottoms of the pistons with sharpie. These all need to be cleaned and de-rusted.



That's as far as I got tonight. Back in the bag!



This is the first crank I've spun over without pistons & rods attached. It sure turns buttery smooth without all that friction. Kinda neat taking this thing apart, but I'm not looking forward to the cleaning process.

What do you guys think?

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

I think your on the right path! Its best to be safe than sorry, especially if time is on your side. It will be just a short period of time before your up and running with the confidence you did it right.

I am not sure if you already own one but an LS6 valley cover sure would take care of that burnt oil on the tops and sides of the pistons. My LQ4's rings were stuck in their lands after only 98,000 miles.

bitterman

While your at it I'd upgrade the pistons to flat-tops and balancing is always good if you change anything in the rotating assemble.

Its always sad when you have to tear down what was supose to be a perfectly good engine

Those extra expeces add up fast!

Good luck with your rebuild!

Bruce

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Tony - I'll look into the LS6 valley cover. There seem to be as many ways to do PCV on these engines as there are small block Chevys in '32 Fords. I will probably focus my effort on getting or making a good catch can rather than replacing the valley cover, but I'll think about it.

Yeah, but ya know this may have been a perfectly good engine before I got ahold of it. Honestly if it weren't for the rust, everything looks pretty decent. The cylinders still have good cross hatching. The rust was probably my fault and for that I'm frustrated, especially because I had such great momentum going into the cam swap. But I'm very glad I found this and dug deeper - running it like this likely would have been disasterous.

The extra expenses definitely add up fast. Lifters, fasteners and gaskets are a few hundred bucks just by themselves, not to mention whatever machine work this is going to take to clean up.

I need to find a trustworthy machine shop around here. Having the bottom end apart has me thinking about build possibilities. What's a few grand here and there to put a smile on my face? :laughing1: I've priced out a stroker rotating assembly: Callies Compstar forged 4" stroke crank, Callies compstar forged H beam rods w/ ARP 2000s, and Wiseco pistons with rings and pins would set me back about $2,500 including a set of bearings and balancing. That would give me a nice bump in cubes (364 vs 402) and compression (9.6 vs 10.6)

I'm not sure what it would cost to hone the mains if I put ARP studs in. Also not sure what it would cost to get the block cleaned, R&R cam bearings, hone the bores, and perhaps resurface the decks. Any ideas?

I put a shopping cart together with Texas Speed and including all the stroker parts, gaskets, ARP head bolts, ARP main studs, LS7 lifters, I'm up to about $3,100 in parts alone. Ouch.

bitterman

I would do the minimum for now.
I have my eye on Race Tec "Auto Tec" Pistons part# 1000589

Piston Part # Cu. In. Bore Size Over Size Stroke Rod Lngth Comp. Height 60cc 64cc 71cc Dome Vol.
1000589 364 4.000 -- 3.622 6.098 1.340 11.2 10.7 9.9 -3.3

Jimbo1367

Clint,
Sorry to hear of the bad luck. Good thing you decided to tear it down. Seeing this worries me BIGTIME. I now want to pull my pan to view it again. I am hoping since I only used a wirewheel & laquerthinner to clean my engine, I might dodge this unfortionate incident. But I wouldn't be surprised. I had a few small specs of rust on my rockers when I opened the engine up. I had the exact same bad luck with my 454 last summer.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Bruce. I'll take a look at those.

Jimbo when you get in there make sure you pull the windage tray to get a good look. I certainly hope you don't have the same problem.

Found this article with some quoted costs for machine work: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...d/viewall.html

They didn't hone the mains on that build. Total cost for above: $704. I don't think it matters how I crunch these numbers - my wife is not going to like this idea!

bczee

iTrader: (12)

Yeah.. that is about the going price to get a block reconditioned. Not much you can do to get around that.

This is one reason when dealing with a SBC, buying a Create motor or a short block, its cost effective..(unless you need some custom setup).

BC

futureuser

iTrader: (1)

Sorry you found more rust. Your motor would have felt right at home in my car.

EngineBuilder59

Teehee
I think you supposed to miss all the cones Bandit!