'70 Nova LY6/TH400 6.0VVT
04-11-2012, 12:06 PM
#362
Thanks for the tips! I took some quick measurements from the front of the main crossmember to the engine mounts and the two sides matched. I need to take a few more including cross measurments to confirm the tranny positioning. If the tail end really is off center, I'll try loosening the frame stands and see how much wiggle room there is to straighten it out. I need to get the car a little higher in the air so I can take measurements - I can barely squeeze under it as it sits.
Tony thanks for the link to Sako's build. I see he ended up slotting the frame stand holes in order to shift things into place. I have been meaning to ping him to see how his wife is doing.
Tony thanks for the link to Sako's build. I see he ended up slotting the frame stand holes in order to shift things into place. I have been meaning to ping him to see how his wife is doing.
04-11-2012, 10:38 PM
#363
Maybe also measure the trans mount to the frame rails as well. Not likely, but if the crossmember is somehow off set, it could keep the trans off center of the crossmember. Or the rear body mounts off by a little like hookems was getting at.
Last edited by futureuser; 04-11-2012 at 10:44 PM.
04-12-2012, 01:03 PM
#364
The subframe to body positioning should only affect tranny positioning relative to the tunnel. It shouldn't affect how the tranny lines up with the crossmember since both the crossmember and engine are bolted to the subframe. That said, I have checked the subframe to body alignment using the dowel holes on the body mounts at the firewall and it is spot on.
Still haven't had a chance to get out there with a tape - hopefully tonight.
Still haven't had a chance to get out there with a tape - hopefully tonight.
04-12-2012, 11:02 PM
#365
Update:
What looked like 1.5-2" to my sad eyecrometer turned out to be closer to 3/4" after I got the car into the air and measured from the frame rails. I loosened the bolts holding the engine stands to the frame and shifted the tail end of the tranny back to center by hand without a hitch. Let that be a lesson to start with everything loose - there's some wiggle room in there. I'll try to remember this three or four years from now when I actually put the engine in for good.
What looked like 1.5-2" to my sad eyecrometer turned out to be closer to 3/4" after I got the car into the air and measured from the frame rails. I loosened the bolts holding the engine stands to the frame and shifted the tail end of the tranny back to center by hand without a hitch. Let that be a lesson to start with everything loose - there's some wiggle room in there. I'll try to remember this three or four years from now when I actually put the engine in for good.
04-13-2012, 12:01 AM
#366
Update:
What looked like 1.5-2" to my sad eyecrometer turned out to be closer to 3/4" after I got the car into the air and measured from the frame rails. I loosened the bolts holding the engine stands to the frame and shifted the tail end of the tranny back to center by hand without a hitch. Let that be a lesson to start with everything loose - there's some wiggle room in there. I'll try to remember this three or four years from now when I actually put the engine in for good.
What looked like 1.5-2" to my sad eyecrometer turned out to be closer to 3/4" after I got the car into the air and measured from the frame rails. I loosened the bolts holding the engine stands to the frame and shifted the tail end of the tranny back to center by hand without a hitch. Let that be a lesson to start with everything loose - there's some wiggle room in there. I'll try to remember this three or four years from now when I actually put the engine in for good.
04-22-2012, 05:51 PM
#367
Work continues on the Nova. After finding satisfaction in the accessory notching and transmission positioning, I pulled the engine back out and removed the rear cover. Look at the nasties I found in the rear crossover oil galley! I think pulling this engine apart was about the best decision I've made so far.
With the engine back on the stand, I rotated it over and pulled the main caps
You can see below the second and fourth main bearings have some black discoloration on them. I think this is oxidation, though I'm not sure. All the bearings WILL be replaced.
Next out came the crankshaft itself. Only a few of the rod journals show a rusty streak around between where the rod bearings were. I think this will clean up easily with a light polish.
With the engine back on the stand, I rotated it over and pulled the main caps
You can see below the second and fourth main bearings have some black discoloration on them. I think this is oxidation, though I'm not sure. All the bearings WILL be replaced.
Next out came the crankshaft itself. Only a few of the rod journals show a rusty streak around between where the rod bearings were. I think this will clean up easily with a light polish.
04-22-2012, 06:06 PM
#369
Next I decided to start prepping parts for getting the car back on all four eventually. I think I mentioned a long while back in this thread that I plan to use AFCO adjustable spring spacers and springs on the front of my car.
The AFCO spacers are flat ended, but both the control arm and subframe have tapered spring pockets to accept the pigtailed coil springs. To determine the taper, I took a 4-1/2" cuttoff wheel, which happens to be the same diameter as the AFCO spacers, marked it every 45 degrees, and measured the depth of the taper using some wood skewers. I found the taper to be approximately linear, going from 0 to 1/2" depth around the 360 degrees. You can see here I measured form the lower control arm; the subframe pocket appears to be the same and should be based on the symmetry of the spring.
Next I laid out a template on a piece of paper. The circumference of a 4.5" circle is about 14-1/8", so I had to tape two pieces of paper together to get enough length. I decided to lay this out so that when the adjuster was mid travel, I would have a 2" lowered height, corresponding to a 12.5" free length for my 600lb/in springs. This free length comes from trying to replicate Hotchkiss 2" drop height coil springs, which are the same rate and have 12.5" free length. To get this, my taper removes from 1-1/8" to 1-5/8" from the AFCO spacers.
I cut my template out, wrapped it around the spacer, and marked it as shown below. If you do this be very careful to verify the taper goes in the right direction.
Before cutting, I verified the total free length from end to end of my 9.5"x5" AFCO spring and trimmed spacer would be 12.5in.
Then I clamped the spacer onto a folding workbench and made the cut with a cutoff wheel.
Wala! It fits the pocket with even contact all the way around:
From what I've seen, people usually put these into the upper spring pocket, citing interference when placed on the lower control arm. I decided to try mocking it up in the LCA and it appears it would clear just fine in either position.
That's all for now. Next step - get the engine to a machine shop and paint the exposed sections of the frame.
The AFCO spacers are flat ended, but both the control arm and subframe have tapered spring pockets to accept the pigtailed coil springs. To determine the taper, I took a 4-1/2" cuttoff wheel, which happens to be the same diameter as the AFCO spacers, marked it every 45 degrees, and measured the depth of the taper using some wood skewers. I found the taper to be approximately linear, going from 0 to 1/2" depth around the 360 degrees. You can see here I measured form the lower control arm; the subframe pocket appears to be the same and should be based on the symmetry of the spring.
Next I laid out a template on a piece of paper. The circumference of a 4.5" circle is about 14-1/8", so I had to tape two pieces of paper together to get enough length. I decided to lay this out so that when the adjuster was mid travel, I would have a 2" lowered height, corresponding to a 12.5" free length for my 600lb/in springs. This free length comes from trying to replicate Hotchkiss 2" drop height coil springs, which are the same rate and have 12.5" free length. To get this, my taper removes from 1-1/8" to 1-5/8" from the AFCO spacers.
I cut my template out, wrapped it around the spacer, and marked it as shown below. If you do this be very careful to verify the taper goes in the right direction.
Before cutting, I verified the total free length from end to end of my 9.5"x5" AFCO spring and trimmed spacer would be 12.5in.
Then I clamped the spacer onto a folding workbench and made the cut with a cutoff wheel.
Wala! It fits the pocket with even contact all the way around:
From what I've seen, people usually put these into the upper spring pocket, citing interference when placed on the lower control arm. I decided to try mocking it up in the LCA and it appears it would clear just fine in either position.
That's all for now. Next step - get the engine to a machine shop and paint the exposed sections of the frame.
04-22-2012, 10:24 PM
#370
Nice job.. a little extra work and looks like it will work.
on a side note.. would these have worked ?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPS-1103/?rtype=10
BC
on a side note.. would these have worked ?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPS-1103/?rtype=10
BC
04-22-2012, 11:37 PM
#371
on a side note.. would these have worked ?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPS-1103/?rtype=10
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPS-1103/?rtype=10
Last edited by -TheBandit-; 04-22-2012 at 11:42 PM.
04-23-2012, 06:00 PM
#372
It will be great to have that ride height adjustibility. I might add those to my ebay arms. I wonder how much rust was in my van motor? I didn't see any in the cam bearings or when I pulled the pan but a quart (or 2) of water came out of my oil pan when I drained it the first time. I think I blew the last of that rust out of the motor last Friday night.
04-23-2012, 08:03 PM
#373
Clint,
Seeing your cover/bearing pics is scaring me. BIGTIME. Glad to see you moving on with the "other stuff".
Seeing your cover/bearing pics is scaring me. BIGTIME. Glad to see you moving on with the "other stuff".
04-27-2012, 10:47 AM
#374
I did a bit of research, called around, and came up with a couple of machine shops recommended for building LS engines. One of the challenges with finding a shop was finding one with a torque plate for the LSx, which many do not have. I am not entirely sure if the torque plate is needed for an iron block, especially since the head bolts on the LSx are separated from the cylinder area by the water jackets, but since the jury is out on that issue, I'd prefer to play it safe. A local shop JCG Restorations which has built some really nice stuff recommended QMP Racing in Chatsworth, which is about an hour away. I called them up and spoke to Brad, who was very friendly and seemed knowledgeable. He quoted prices for various services and explained what I may or may not need, depending on what things looked like. Prices fell right in line with what I had listed above.
My at the moment plan is to get the block and crank to him, have the crank polished and clean/hone the block for a set of forged 2618 flat top pistons & moly rings. I am thinking unless something is bad, I will not deck or line hone the block, but I will have new cam bearings put in. I'll replace the rods with forged H beams w/ ARP2000s. Their brand of choice is Manley for the pistons and rods, but sell others as well. I don't think the Manleys come with coated skirts and that's something I'd like to have. I could save a few hundred bucks using Scat or Eagle rods, but I think I should stick with a mid-grade rod like a K1 or Manley. Callies makes nice stuff too for another $50 or so, maybe I should consider theirs.
At any rate I'll probably be in this thing a little over $2k, but instead of a 60k mile bottom end, I'll have a fresh bottom end with reliable components and a healthier compression ratio. That's what I'm thinking for now at least. Any thoughts?
My at the moment plan is to get the block and crank to him, have the crank polished and clean/hone the block for a set of forged 2618 flat top pistons & moly rings. I am thinking unless something is bad, I will not deck or line hone the block, but I will have new cam bearings put in. I'll replace the rods with forged H beams w/ ARP2000s. Their brand of choice is Manley for the pistons and rods, but sell others as well. I don't think the Manleys come with coated skirts and that's something I'd like to have. I could save a few hundred bucks using Scat or Eagle rods, but I think I should stick with a mid-grade rod like a K1 or Manley. Callies makes nice stuff too for another $50 or so, maybe I should consider theirs.
At any rate I'll probably be in this thing a little over $2k, but instead of a 60k mile bottom end, I'll have a fresh bottom end with reliable components and a healthier compression ratio. That's what I'm thinking for now at least. Any thoughts?
04-27-2012, 11:14 AM
#375
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You should look into RPM Motors Inc. in Santa Clarita. From what Ive read/seen they do some great work and they have a great rep over on the corvette forum.
Very nice work on the coil adjuster! Want to make me a set
Very nice work on the coil adjuster! Want to make me a set
04-27-2012, 11:30 AM
#376
Those are stock bore pistons, right? How much extra for a stroker crank? How much less to reuse the stock rods and pistons with new rings and bearings?
My thoughts are that if you don't plan to run nitrous, and you are going to change the rods and pistons, go ahead and get the stroker crank, so you can actually gain some power. If you do plan to run nitrous, than your new rods and pistons will be put to work, and will be good for the 9s, and the money for the crank could be put into the nitrous system. If you don't run nitrous you don't need the fancy rods and pistons and maybe you could find a cheap set of LQ9 or LS2 pistons for your compression bump, if they work. I am assuming that since you want the compression bump, that boost is out of the question.
Remember the stock parts are good for well over 600 hp and 10s all day long with nitrous and the stock "low" compression LY6 pistons work well too, providing over 500hp.
My concern is in the strength of the valvetrain. It is the weakness in these motors. I have seen a few trucks at the dealer that broke a valvespring and dropped a valve, destroying the whole engine. I hope you can run a good dual valve spring, and that stock timing chain and vvt phaser can hold up. That's where your focus on increased strength should be.
My thoughts are that if you don't plan to run nitrous, and you are going to change the rods and pistons, go ahead and get the stroker crank, so you can actually gain some power. If you do plan to run nitrous, than your new rods and pistons will be put to work, and will be good for the 9s, and the money for the crank could be put into the nitrous system. If you don't run nitrous you don't need the fancy rods and pistons and maybe you could find a cheap set of LQ9 or LS2 pistons for your compression bump, if they work. I am assuming that since you want the compression bump, that boost is out of the question.
Remember the stock parts are good for well over 600 hp and 10s all day long with nitrous and the stock "low" compression LY6 pistons work well too, providing over 500hp.
My concern is in the strength of the valvetrain. It is the weakness in these motors. I have seen a few trucks at the dealer that broke a valvespring and dropped a valve, destroying the whole engine. I hope you can run a good dual valve spring, and that stock timing chain and vvt phaser can hold up. That's where your focus on increased strength should be.
Last edited by futureuser; 04-27-2012 at 11:50 AM.
04-27-2012, 12:20 PM
#377
I did a bit of research, called around, and came up with a couple of machine shops recommended for building LS engines. One of the challenges with finding a shop was finding one with a torque plate for the LSx, which many do not have. I am not entirely sure if the torque plate is needed for an iron block, especially since the head bolts on the LSx are separated from the cylinder area by the water jackets, but since the jury is out on that issue, I'd prefer to play it safe. A local shop JCG Restorations which has built some really nice stuff recommended QMP Racing in Chatsworth, which is about an hour away. I called them up and spoke to Brad, who was very friendly and seemed knowledgeable. He quoted prices for various services and explained what I may or may not need, depending on what things looked like. Prices fell right in line with what I had listed above.
My at the moment plan is to get the block and crank to him, have the crank polished and clean/hone the block for a set of forged 2618 flat top pistons & moly rings. I am thinking unless something is bad, I will not deck or line hone the block, but I will have new cam bearings put in. I'll replace the rods with forged H beams w/ ARP2000s. Their brand of choice is Manley for the pistons and rods, but sell others as well. I don't think the Manleys come with coated skirts and that's something I'd like to have. I could save a few hundred bucks using Scat or Eagle rods, but I think I should stick with a mid-grade rod like a K1 or Manley. Callies makes nice stuff too for another $50 or so, maybe I should consider theirs.
At any rate I'll probably be in this thing a little over $2k, but instead of a 60k mile bottom end, I'll have a fresh bottom end with reliable components and a healthier compression ratio. That's what I'm thinking for now at least. Any thoughts?
My at the moment plan is to get the block and crank to him, have the crank polished and clean/hone the block for a set of forged 2618 flat top pistons & moly rings. I am thinking unless something is bad, I will not deck or line hone the block, but I will have new cam bearings put in. I'll replace the rods with forged H beams w/ ARP2000s. Their brand of choice is Manley for the pistons and rods, but sell others as well. I don't think the Manleys come with coated skirts and that's something I'd like to have. I could save a few hundred bucks using Scat or Eagle rods, but I think I should stick with a mid-grade rod like a K1 or Manley. Callies makes nice stuff too for another $50 or so, maybe I should consider theirs.
At any rate I'll probably be in this thing a little over $2k, but instead of a 60k mile bottom end, I'll have a fresh bottom end with reliable components and a healthier compression ratio. That's what I'm thinking for now at least. Any thoughts?
04-27-2012, 12:45 PM
#378
I have decided on ARP head bolts for the reusability, not that I want to ever take this thing apart again, but you just don't know.
Stroker crank adds about $1000 to the build and as you said the Callies rods are actually pretty close in price. I found if I buy rods & pistons together through Cal Speed or someone like that, I can get Wisecos and Callies for about the same price as buying Manleys separately elsewhere. I am still trying to do my homework on this and like you said, there is a bit of an all-or-nothing facet to this. Damn thing is driving me crazy thinking about it. Yeah I could throw the old pistons & rods back in there with new rings and bearings for a total cost of about $1,000 (including honing and all the replacement parts to put the engine back together), saving the cost of balancing etc.
It goes something like this
Looking at it again, the middle option is making less sense. Agh... indecision is killing me! Think of what I could do with all that money. Maybe I should heed future's advice and just stick to rings and bearings (the $1,000 option)
Stroker crank adds about $1000 to the build and as you said the Callies rods are actually pretty close in price. I found if I buy rods & pistons together through Cal Speed or someone like that, I can get Wisecos and Callies for about the same price as buying Manleys separately elsewhere. I am still trying to do my homework on this and like you said, there is a bit of an all-or-nothing facet to this. Damn thing is driving me crazy thinking about it. Yeah I could throw the old pistons & rods back in there with new rings and bearings for a total cost of about $1,000 (including honing and all the replacement parts to put the engine back together), saving the cost of balancing etc.
It goes something like this
Looking at it again, the middle option is making less sense. Agh... indecision is killing me! Think of what I could do with all that money. Maybe I should heed future's advice and just stick to rings and bearings (the $1,000 option)
05-01-2012, 08:51 PM
#379
Well, you've slept on it a couple of nights. What do you think? A buddy of mine is running 10.5s with his stock short block C5 and I'm thinking about running him down, but it will tough. Don't tell anyone.
05-02-2012, 09:43 AM
#380
Haven't got the parts to the machine shop yet, but I'm planning on reusing the stock rotating assembly with new bearings and rings, after a good clean, polish & light hone. I am trying to take a dose of my own advice and limit my scope. The original plan wasn't to upgrade any internals. I need to stick to that plan as best I can to conserve cash for other parts of the car.