'70 Nova LY6/TH400 6.0VVT
10-23-2012, 11:41 PM
#561
Here is a video I took exploring my stock rocker arm trunnion clearances. They all seem to be about the same.
http://youtu.be/_Jd5hBF0CPo
http://youtu.be/_Jd5hBF0CPo
10-24-2012, 11:02 AM
#562
Had just enough time last night to measure the intake valve clearance with the phaser at full advance. I did this by rotating the crank in 2 degree increments, pushing down on the tip of the valve (through the rocker) and measuring the travel of the valve until it hit the piston. I got a minimum intake valve to piston clearace of .210in. Here is the raw data:
Intake, Phaser Fully Advanced
crank deg (starting from BTDC) / clearance (in)
4 .270
2 .260
0 .250
2 .235
4 .227
6 .219
8 .210
10 .210
12 .210
14 .210
16 .222
18 .231
20 .245
22 .258
I thought it was interesting that for range of about 6 crank degrees the valve chased the piston, maintaining the same minimum clearance. This looks like plenty of clearance. Speaking hypothetically and assuming I got a little crazy, I could run a 1.8 rocker ratio to increase lift from .614 to .650. This would reduce P-V clearance by less than .036; .036 would be for max lift, but since the rocker change is a ratio change, the clearance would be less impacted at lower lifts earlier in the valve opening where minimum P-V clearance happens. For what it's worth, the dual springs I have are rated for .650in lift so that would definitely be pushing it. Not to mention coil bind, seal clearance, rocker tip sweep, etc. I don't plan on going down that road any time soon, but it is good to know I have margin on intake valve clearance.
I will do the exhaust valve next (even though with the phaser currently advanced it will not be worst case). Then I plan to remove the head and clay the piston to check radial clearance. After that I get to do this all over again with the phaser in the retarded position. I also need to decide if I should do this for the other side of the engine. I am tempted not to with this much clearance, but I'll have to see how close the exhaust valve comes. If I don't check the other side, I will at a minimum check the piston-deck protrusion. I did measure piston-deck protrusion on this side and it was an even .010, which agrees perfectly with the deck height QMP reported.
Intake, Phaser Fully Advanced
crank deg (starting from BTDC) / clearance (in)
4 .270
2 .260
0 .250
2 .235
4 .227
6 .219
8 .210
10 .210
12 .210
14 .210
16 .222
18 .231
20 .245
22 .258
I thought it was interesting that for range of about 6 crank degrees the valve chased the piston, maintaining the same minimum clearance. This looks like plenty of clearance. Speaking hypothetically and assuming I got a little crazy, I could run a 1.8 rocker ratio to increase lift from .614 to .650. This would reduce P-V clearance by less than .036; .036 would be for max lift, but since the rocker change is a ratio change, the clearance would be less impacted at lower lifts earlier in the valve opening where minimum P-V clearance happens. For what it's worth, the dual springs I have are rated for .650in lift so that would definitely be pushing it. Not to mention coil bind, seal clearance, rocker tip sweep, etc. I don't plan on going down that road any time soon, but it is good to know I have margin on intake valve clearance.
I will do the exhaust valve next (even though with the phaser currently advanced it will not be worst case). Then I plan to remove the head and clay the piston to check radial clearance. After that I get to do this all over again with the phaser in the retarded position. I also need to decide if I should do this for the other side of the engine. I am tempted not to with this much clearance, but I'll have to see how close the exhaust valve comes. If I don't check the other side, I will at a minimum check the piston-deck protrusion. I did measure piston-deck protrusion on this side and it was an even .010, which agrees perfectly with the deck height QMP reported.
Last edited by -TheBandit-; 10-29-2012 at 03:20 PM.
10-24-2012, 05:44 PM
#563
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just spent ,most of my day reading and going through this build. verynice work with the engine mounts and fab work on the crossmember. car is looking very nice like how you spend alot of time to attention to detail stuff. it the little thing that make this swap even better. keep up the nice work.
10-24-2012, 06:04 PM
#564
Thank you! It's taken me over two years to write out all that story so I'm glad someone is enjoying it lol. In all seriousness, I appreciate the complement.
I called Callies just to be sure and they said not to worry about it - the lube should squeeze out as they're torqued down.
I called Callies just to be sure and they said not to worry about it - the lube should squeeze out as they're torqued down.
10-24-2012, 08:52 PM
#565
I say send the cam back and go larger if the exhaust has plenty of clearance. You originally purchased the current cam to combat PTV with the flat tops. Might as well let the engine breathe all it can. I have the same intake, injectors, basically the same pistons, and same heads with a bigger cam. Love the idle, love the power, love the fuel mileage, and driveability I would damn near marry this thing if the law would allow it. I guess you could buy a set of rockers later down the road and feel confident no clearance issues would arise. Maybe go ahead and grab a set of springs and install them in anticipation of the increased lift.
I see where you were going to check the radial clearance? Would this be to check that the valve is not shrouded or that you have valve to cylinder clearance?
I see where you were going to check the radial clearance? Would this be to check that the valve is not shrouded or that you have valve to cylinder clearance?
10-25-2012, 12:19 PM
#566
I think this cam is still a very good match for the application, compression ratio, stall, gearing, weight, and other mods on this engine. Depending on the exhaust valve clearance @ full retard, I might be able to go bigger, but I think this is going to keep the power in the areas I will use it most. I don't want to go overboard. If I were going to do anything differently, I might swap to the cam futureuser is using, but ground on a VVT core instead. I don't think that's worth it right now.
The radial clearance I'll be checking is with the valve reliefs in the piston. I'm not worried about cylinder shrouding/clearance since I have not angle milled the heads or done anything to really alter the relationship between the valve travel and cylinder. If anything there is more clearance now due to the .030 overbore.
The radial clearance I'll be checking is with the valve reliefs in the piston. I'm not worried about cylinder shrouding/clearance since I have not angle milled the heads or done anything to really alter the relationship between the valve travel and cylinder. If anything there is more clearance now due to the .030 overbore.
10-26-2012, 10:35 AM
#569
More piston-valve clearance results, this time for the exhaust. I think this is very interesting.
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Advanced
crank deg (starting from BTDC) / clearance (in)
24 .304
22 .285
20 .272
18 .260
16 .251
14 .244
12 .239
10 .235
8 .235
6 .236
4 .242
2 .249
0 .257
After obtaining this data, I removed the phaser and locked it into full retard with the Comp Cams limiter in place. Because I had to remove the degree wheel and I left the heads on, I did not have true TDC for the next set of numbers. I did however have the degree wheel on and eyeballed TDC based on the dot facing up on the crank timing sprocket. That allowed me to work in 2 degree increments, but the "0" reference may be off a tad. Here is the data
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Retarded, Comp limiter in place
approx crank deg (BTDC) / clearance (in)
20 .150
18 .144
16 .137
14 .136
12 .135
10 .137
8 .142
6 .150
4 .160
2 .172
0 .188
I find a few things very interesting about the above data. Retarding the cam this much killed about .100 of piston-valve clearance. For the advance position, minimum clearance was .235. For the retarded position, minimum clearance was .135. It's also interesting that for the retarded position, over a range from 20-10degrees BTDC, the clearance changed by only .015in while for the advanced position it changed by .037in. I think this make sense because in the retarded position, the exhaust lobe is probably on the steeper portion of it's closing ramp. It is closing faster so it is able to follow movement of the piston better. For the advance position, the exhaust lobe is on a slower part of it's ramp, so the piston is coming up faster than it's closing.
From what I've read .135 is still considered acceptable, but it makes me wonder about others who are using this cam in LY6 and L99 applications. I don't think those pistons have as much valve relief as the Wisecos I'm running. I will try to get some measurements on my old LY6 pistons to compare.
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Advanced
crank deg (starting from BTDC) / clearance (in)
24 .304
22 .285
20 .272
18 .260
16 .251
14 .244
12 .239
10 .235
8 .235
6 .236
4 .242
2 .249
0 .257
After obtaining this data, I removed the phaser and locked it into full retard with the Comp Cams limiter in place. Because I had to remove the degree wheel and I left the heads on, I did not have true TDC for the next set of numbers. I did however have the degree wheel on and eyeballed TDC based on the dot facing up on the crank timing sprocket. That allowed me to work in 2 degree increments, but the "0" reference may be off a tad. Here is the data
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Retarded, Comp limiter in place
approx crank deg (BTDC) / clearance (in)
20 .150
18 .144
16 .137
14 .136
12 .135
10 .137
8 .142
6 .150
4 .160
2 .172
0 .188
I find a few things very interesting about the above data. Retarding the cam this much killed about .100 of piston-valve clearance. For the advance position, minimum clearance was .235. For the retarded position, minimum clearance was .135. It's also interesting that for the retarded position, over a range from 20-10degrees BTDC, the clearance changed by only .015in while for the advanced position it changed by .037in. I think this make sense because in the retarded position, the exhaust lobe is probably on the steeper portion of it's closing ramp. It is closing faster so it is able to follow movement of the piston better. For the advance position, the exhaust lobe is on a slower part of it's ramp, so the piston is coming up faster than it's closing.
From what I've read .135 is still considered acceptable, but it makes me wonder about others who are using this cam in LY6 and L99 applications. I don't think those pistons have as much valve relief as the Wisecos I'm running. I will try to get some measurements on my old LY6 pistons to compare.
Last edited by -TheBandit-; 10-26-2012 at 12:18 PM.
10-27-2012, 11:17 AM
#570
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59 Chevy Truck with 70 Nova subframe Out with the old and in with the new. My name is A.J. and am working on my old 59 Chevy pick up that I traded to my dad. We decided to go with an LS 5.3 instead of the traditional sbc. It has a 70 Nova sub frame under it. I would like to get some tips on mounting the engine in this beast. We are using a TH 400. Have already purchesed some flash and neccesities. Necessities are: oil pan from Milodon that fits Nova sub frames, flex plate and spacer for TH 400, torque coverter for TH400, gaskets, plugs and plug wires. The engine has 112,000 milles on it. I am a welder by profession and have fabricated on many vehicles. Any thoughts or suggestions on the swap would be very helpful as we kinda have a time frame in mind. I am new to the forum scene and don't quite know how to navigate around, so be patient. Thanks and have a good day.
A.J.
A.J.
10-27-2012, 11:56 AM
#571
More piston-valve clearance results, this time for the exhaust. I think this is very interesting.
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Advanced
crank deg (starting from BTDC) / clearance (in)
24 .304
22 .285
20 .272
18 .260
16 .251
14 .244
12 .239
10 .235
8 .235
6 .236
4 .242
2 .249
0 .257
After obtaining this data, I removed the phaser and locked it into full retard with the Comp Cams limiter in place. Because I had to remove the degree wheel and I left the heads on, I did not have true TDC for the next set of numbers. I did however have the degree wheel on and eyeballed TDC based on the dot facing up on the crank timing sprocket. That allowed me to work in 2 degree increments, but the "0" reference may be off a tad. Here is the data
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Retarded, Comp limiter in place
approx crank deg (BTDC) / clearance (in)
20 .150
18 .144
16 .137
14 .136
12 .135
10 .137
8 .142
6 .150
4 .160
2 .172
0 .188
I find a few things very interesting about the above data. Retarding the cam this much killed about .100 of piston-valve clearance. For the advance position, minimum clearance was .235. For the retarded position, minimum clearance was .135. It's also interesting that for the retarded position, over a range from 20-10degrees BTDC, the clearance changed by only .015in while for the advanced position it changed by .037in. I think this make sense because in the retarded position, the exhaust lobe is probably on the steeper portion of it's closing ramp. It is closing faster so it is able to follow movement of the piston better. For the advance position, the exhaust lobe is on a slower part of it's ramp, so the piston is coming up faster than it's closing.
From what I've read .135 is still considered acceptable, but it makes me wonder about others who are using this cam in LY6 and L99 applications. I don't think those pistons have as much valve relief as the Wisecos I'm running. I will try to get some measurements on my old LY6 pistons to compare.
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Advanced
crank deg (starting from BTDC) / clearance (in)
24 .304
22 .285
20 .272
18 .260
16 .251
14 .244
12 .239
10 .235
8 .235
6 .236
4 .242
2 .249
0 .257
After obtaining this data, I removed the phaser and locked it into full retard with the Comp Cams limiter in place. Because I had to remove the degree wheel and I left the heads on, I did not have true TDC for the next set of numbers. I did however have the degree wheel on and eyeballed TDC based on the dot facing up on the crank timing sprocket. That allowed me to work in 2 degree increments, but the "0" reference may be off a tad. Here is the data
Exhaust, Phaser Fully Retarded, Comp limiter in place
approx crank deg (BTDC) / clearance (in)
20 .150
18 .144
16 .137
14 .136
12 .135
10 .137
8 .142
6 .150
4 .160
2 .172
0 .188
I find a few things very interesting about the above data. Retarding the cam this much killed about .100 of piston-valve clearance. For the advance position, minimum clearance was .235. For the retarded position, minimum clearance was .135. It's also interesting that for the retarded position, over a range from 20-10degrees BTDC, the clearance changed by only .015in while for the advanced position it changed by .037in. I think this make sense because in the retarded position, the exhaust lobe is probably on the steeper portion of it's closing ramp. It is closing faster so it is able to follow movement of the piston better. For the advance position, the exhaust lobe is on a slower part of it's ramp, so the piston is coming up faster than it's closing.
From what I've read .135 is still considered acceptable, but it makes me wonder about others who are using this cam in LY6 and L99 applications. I don't think those pistons have as much valve relief as the Wisecos I'm running. I will try to get some measurements on my old LY6 pistons to compare.
Would love to see the valve relief differences between the stock and aftermarket pistons you are using.
Also would you like for me to post the VVT 3 cam specs so you can get an idea of the clearances would be with the larger cam?
Mike
10-29-2012, 02:51 PM
#572
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Thank you for taking the time to post up all the engine assembly you are going through. Very helpfull for those like myself who have never done a ground motor build. The amount of play your rockers have seems to be similar to my LSA and LQ4 heads and normal, the HS should be a nice upgrade. I am curious if you will have to hone the ID of some of the rocker bodies as I have been told it is sometimes needed for a correct press fit to avoid bind.
Seems like you have invested in a stout drivetrain so far. Have you decided what to do for pushrods? Just a couple weeks ago I bought some 3/8 pushrods for the extra ~$25 over the 5/16 ones from HKE/ Trend. They fit with adequate clearance, but on the head I hadnt already installed I touched it up with a die grinder because I am continually paranoid.
Seems like you have invested in a stout drivetrain so far. Have you decided what to do for pushrods? Just a couple weeks ago I bought some 3/8 pushrods for the extra ~$25 over the 5/16 ones from HKE/ Trend. They fit with adequate clearance, but on the head I hadnt already installed I touched it up with a die grinder because I am continually paranoid.
10-29-2012, 05:05 PM
#573
Mike - I will post info & photos comparing the valve reliefs soon. The LY6 pistons have no intake valve relief, but they do have a dish, so it's hard to compare with the flat top. The LY6 exhaust valve relief is also hard to measure because it is partially on the dish and partially on the flat rim around the edge. Regarding the VVT3 specs, while I am interested to know what they are, I'm not sure how helpful they would be since timing and ramp rates have a lot more to do with clearance than the overall lift, duration or LSA. I don't think I could make a scientific determination on what the PTV clearance would be in my engine.
TurtleBite - Thanks! I appreciate the rocker info. I asked the HS guy about honing the rockers and he said he has never had to do that. He says they've measured the bores and found they are pretty consistent from GM. Not to discount what others have observed, but I don't expect to do more than carefully press the new ones in. Fingers crossed! Regarding the pushrods, I plan to use the 5/16 TSP cromoly pushrods that came with the VVT cam kit. If I end up needing a different length I may return them and consider other options, but I probably would just exchange them for the right length assuming TSP is willing to do that.
TurtleBite - Thanks! I appreciate the rocker info. I asked the HS guy about honing the rockers and he said he has never had to do that. He says they've measured the bores and found they are pretty consistent from GM. Not to discount what others have observed, but I don't expect to do more than carefully press the new ones in. Fingers crossed! Regarding the pushrods, I plan to use the 5/16 TSP cromoly pushrods that came with the VVT cam kit. If I end up needing a different length I may return them and consider other options, but I probably would just exchange them for the right length assuming TSP is willing to do that.
10-30-2012, 10:45 AM
#575
Thank you Doug!
Here is a better photo showing the phaser locked to full advance. You can see I cut off one of the stripped phaser screws (using a bolt cutter). It happened to fit perfectly.
To get the phaser to full retard, I tried random objects from the garage and found a 1/4" hex drive bit was a great fit.
I had to cut the end off because it was a bit long. I took it outside and used a Dremel with a small abrasive cutoff wheel.
Here are the results for the intake valve in full retard. This time I knocked the pointer, so 0 is at least a few degrees off from TDC. I've read a number of places that minimum clearance tends to occur around 10BTDC for exhaust and 10ATDC for intake, which is consistent with my other measurements.
Intake, Phaser Fully Retarded
approx crank deg (BTDC) / clearance (in)
4 .315
2 .310
0 .310
2 .305
4 .305
6 .308
8 .314
In summary, here are my minimum clearances in full advance/full retard
Intake: .210/.305
Exhaust: .235/.135
My next step will be claying the pistons to confirm and check radial clearance.
Here is a better photo showing the phaser locked to full advance. You can see I cut off one of the stripped phaser screws (using a bolt cutter). It happened to fit perfectly.
To get the phaser to full retard, I tried random objects from the garage and found a 1/4" hex drive bit was a great fit.
I had to cut the end off because it was a bit long. I took it outside and used a Dremel with a small abrasive cutoff wheel.
Here are the results for the intake valve in full retard. This time I knocked the pointer, so 0 is at least a few degrees off from TDC. I've read a number of places that minimum clearance tends to occur around 10BTDC for exhaust and 10ATDC for intake, which is consistent with my other measurements.
Intake, Phaser Fully Retarded
approx crank deg (BTDC) / clearance (in)
4 .315
2 .310
0 .310
2 .305
4 .305
6 .308
8 .314
In summary, here are my minimum clearances in full advance/full retard
Intake: .210/.305
Exhaust: .235/.135
My next step will be claying the pistons to confirm and check radial clearance.
10-30-2012, 11:04 AM
#576
Here is a photo comparing the factory dished LY6 piston to my flattop Wiseco piston. The dish makes it hard to see, but the exhaust valve reliefs are very close to the same depth. That is why limiting the retard travel is critical when using a larger cam, even with an aftermarket piston. The LY6 piston has no intake valve relief beyond the dish, so I'm sure these aftermarket pistons are helping a bit.
I continued assembly work over the weekend and last night. There really wasn't a lot that I felt was photograph worthy, so here are some random shots. First, a piston-rod assembly going together with the second spiralock partially installed:
Here is a view of a top-ring installed. These GFX ring sets have an "N" laser marked onto the top face. I clocked the rings with the top ring and second 180 apart facing front & rear and the oil control rings about 45 degrees each from the top of the piston (in opposite directions), per the diagram supplied by Wiseco. While installing the rings, I supported the piston rod assembly in my soft-jawed vise with very very light pressure on the rod.
All slugs are in their holes
And the rods are all torqued. Here you can see how runny & messy this Permatex Ultra Slick is. There's probably still enough in there to keep it lubed, but I don't think I'll use this stuff again. It makes a mess.
I gotta pick up some modeling clay for the final PTV check (wife said she had some in her craft supplies, but couldn't find it when I needed it), then I'll be off and running finishing this into a longblock.
My wife told me I am to stop spending so much time photographing and posting about my build and use that time instead to get actual work done. I see her point - I spend a lot of time on these forums that I could be using to make progress, but on the other hand I get a lot of enjoyment out of sharing the build and learning from others. I will probably back off a little, but don't expect me to disappear; I am a forum junkie.
I continued assembly work over the weekend and last night. There really wasn't a lot that I felt was photograph worthy, so here are some random shots. First, a piston-rod assembly going together with the second spiralock partially installed:
Here is a view of a top-ring installed. These GFX ring sets have an "N" laser marked onto the top face. I clocked the rings with the top ring and second 180 apart facing front & rear and the oil control rings about 45 degrees each from the top of the piston (in opposite directions), per the diagram supplied by Wiseco. While installing the rings, I supported the piston rod assembly in my soft-jawed vise with very very light pressure on the rod.
All slugs are in their holes
And the rods are all torqued. Here you can see how runny & messy this Permatex Ultra Slick is. There's probably still enough in there to keep it lubed, but I don't think I'll use this stuff again. It makes a mess.
I gotta pick up some modeling clay for the final PTV check (wife said she had some in her craft supplies, but couldn't find it when I needed it), then I'll be off and running finishing this into a longblock.
My wife told me I am to stop spending so much time photographing and posting about my build and use that time instead to get actual work done. I see her point - I spend a lot of time on these forums that I could be using to make progress, but on the other hand I get a lot of enjoyment out of sharing the build and learning from others. I will probably back off a little, but don't expect me to disappear; I am a forum junkie.
10-30-2012, 12:06 PM
#577
My wife told me I am to stop spending so much time photographing and posting about my build and use that time instead to get actual work done. I see her point - I spend a lot of time on these forums that I could be using to make progress, but on the other hand I get a lot of enjoyment out of sharing the build and learning from others. I will probably back off a little, but don't expect me to disappear; I am a forum junkie.
Just kidding Clint, I have been following this and a few other builds on here for some time. I have learned a lot from you guys and hopefully my shopping list will be complete and I can get some actual work done. Keep up the good work. BTW, congrats on your six years post cancer.
10-31-2012, 03:08 PM
#579
Thank you kirk. The project has been a fun journey, however slow going.
The six year mark has been overwhelming for me. I can honestly say it's hit me harder than five years. I have vivid memories of the fearful moments after the diagnosis and think often of all the great things in my life that may never have happened. I don't think I truly had an emotional breakdown about my cancer experience until a couple months ago when I watched the movie 50/50 on a flight to Dallas. For some reason it just resonated with me and five plus years of emotional burden let go in a sobbing breakdown right there on the plane. I had to excuse myself to the restroom for a while to let it all out. It's just another example that the big C is with you for life, whether you are healthy or not. Fortunately I am healthy and the physical cancer hasn't returned. I celebrate life every day!
The last few days have been without progress because my family is fighting a cold. We definitely get sick more often now that my son is two and regularly interacts with other children. It hasn't prevented me plugging away at the forums for entertainment.
When I was finding TDC using the indicator method, I also checked the piston protrusion out of the block. It measured 0.010 as best I could measure using a mag-base indicator stand (bad tool for this since the bottom of the mag base isn't particularly flat). If I calculate the protrusion from the deck height (9.224 per machine shop) and rod/crank/piston dimensions, I get 0.016. The difference is probably a combination of bearing clearances and measurement error.
Plugging through the numbers assuming a 0.051 gasket thickness and 68cc chamber volume (is this right for L92s?), I calculate a static compression ratio (SCR) of 10.49:1 using 0.010 and 10.64:1 using 0.016.
The six year mark has been overwhelming for me. I can honestly say it's hit me harder than five years. I have vivid memories of the fearful moments after the diagnosis and think often of all the great things in my life that may never have happened. I don't think I truly had an emotional breakdown about my cancer experience until a couple months ago when I watched the movie 50/50 on a flight to Dallas. For some reason it just resonated with me and five plus years of emotional burden let go in a sobbing breakdown right there on the plane. I had to excuse myself to the restroom for a while to let it all out. It's just another example that the big C is with you for life, whether you are healthy or not. Fortunately I am healthy and the physical cancer hasn't returned. I celebrate life every day!
The last few days have been without progress because my family is fighting a cold. We definitely get sick more often now that my son is two and regularly interacts with other children. It hasn't prevented me plugging away at the forums for entertainment.
When I was finding TDC using the indicator method, I also checked the piston protrusion out of the block. It measured 0.010 as best I could measure using a mag-base indicator stand (bad tool for this since the bottom of the mag base isn't particularly flat). If I calculate the protrusion from the deck height (9.224 per machine shop) and rod/crank/piston dimensions, I get 0.016. The difference is probably a combination of bearing clearances and measurement error.
Plugging through the numbers assuming a 0.051 gasket thickness and 68cc chamber volume (is this right for L92s?), I calculate a static compression ratio (SCR) of 10.49:1 using 0.010 and 10.64:1 using 0.016.