1961ba427

iTrader: (26)

I'm not a fan of white lithium on main or rod bearings for assembly lube either. Your local Autozone and probably alot of other parts stores have Lucas Assembly lube on hand...it's the red stuff you're used to using.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

The local speed shop carries Permatex Ultra-Slick. Any issue with that stuff? Looks to be the "red stuff" but I honestly don't know what's in it.



Data sheet: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61T6j0i6nNS.pdf

1961ba427

iTrader: (26)

I've never used it, but I'd bet it's okay. Probably best to wait and hear from someone with experience with that brand.

hookemdevils22

iTrader: (12)

It's engine assembly lube. Slather it on and go.

Jimbo1367

I never heard of "rinse"ing assem. lube off. I guess its true, you DO learn sumin new everyday.

hookemdevils22

iTrader: (12)

? I never said rinse.

Verz

iTrader: (21)

haha i assumed you meant rinse with oil but guess you fooled me too

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

I use STP oil treatment for assembly lube as it is sticky as hell and mixes well with the oil once fired up. My engine builder used the red stuff as do most. As long as its not dry on the initial fire you are ok.

Sako (LS1Tech'r) has built an engine primer out of simple parts. Here is the link to the Car Craft page discussing what you will have to do if interested :

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13506857248721

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Update

I picked up some Permatex Ultra Slick assembly lube from the local speed shop. Removing all the white lithium stuff from the main bearings, journals, and crank cross drillings took a bit of work, but I am more comfortable using this stuff. I am a bit disappointed at how runny it is; while it is sticky and snot like, over time it runs and drips. Anyway here are the mains lubed up



After dropping the crank in and main caps snugged down but not tight, I gave the crank a few blows rearward than a number of good blows forward to set the thrust bearing. I used ARP supplied lube on the studs and followed the proper tightening sequence, putting a sharpie mark on each stud after I was done torquing it.





Here are the new Compstar forged rods. These are a beautiful design. They use ARP 2000 bolts.





Here is the first piston rod assembly going together (no 1). I had some trouble at first with the spira locks, but after watching a couple videos on You Tube I was able to get them in quickly. One tip that I liked was to have the pin in place when you install the first lock as a safety measure to keep from damaging the pin bore. Here is a spiralock partially installed. Getting them started is the hardest part, but once the first spiral is about 1/2-3/4 in, you can just work your way around with a flathead screwdriver to press then into place.



One note on the rods; the big end bore has a larger chamfer on one side than the other. I put this facing the nearby counterweight. I believe it is intended for crank fillet clearance, but I don't think it matters on a factory crank.

With the rods and pistons together, I installed the rings. The oil control rings & spacer were installed by spiralling them on (per the instructions). I used ring expanders on the top & 2nd rings. The rings were marked with an "N" on the top surface and the top ring was shiney compared to the 2nd ring.



Next I coated my Summit 4.030 fixed ring compressor with oil and carefully pressed the piston into place, compressing the rings by hand on initial entry to prevent damage. Once it was far enough in, I tapped it the rest of the way in with a rubber mallet. This ring compressor worked great. I can't imagine trying to struggle with an adjustable compressor.



Then I carefully pushed the piston and rod down the bore with my hand underneath to align the rod onto the crank. I installed the cap and hand tightened the rod bolts (not yet torqued).







You can see above the lube gets all over the place. Should I be worried that some found its way onto the flat mating surfaces between the rod and cap or will it just squeeze out during final torque?

After the piston was in, I rotated the crank and wow this thing cycles smooth as butter! Let me know if you see anything concerning.

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

The only issues I see with an LS engine is the amount of front to back movement the main caps have. You would think the side bolts wouldn't allow any movement. I used a feeler gage to make sure the mains were centered on their respective journals. Not that they have to be perfectly aligned but I figured I might as well take the time to eliminate any possible interference.

Looks like you have done a great job so far and she should last you a lifetime. The rest is a piece of cake.

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

It appears your later model block has all of the oil pan bolt holes drilled and tapped, correct? I had a blank just aft of the oil pickup and return. Just thought it was worth mentioning just in case you did in fact have a void.

85MikeTPI

iTrader: (9)

Looks good. Are you lubing your wrist pins? That would be one good use of your Comp assembly lube. Check and make sure your side clearance on the rods is within spec once you get one journal done. Might want to test fit your cam before you get too far, just in case..

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Tony - Yes all the pan holes are tapped. I hadn't really thought about the forward-rearward main cap alignment. I'll look at it.

Mike - I lubed the wrist pins with 20W-50 motor oil. Same for the bores and ring compressor. I am going to stab the cam in next. I had to setup my phaser first.

Che70velle

iTrader: (6)

You're probably done with the short block by now, but hopefully you were careful to keep the back of the bearings dry, as well as the I.D. Of the rod. Same goes for the main bearings. Any oil in there, and its a recipe for a spun bearing. It looks really nice btw.

futureuser

iTrader: (1)

It really looks great, except I see some rust on the outside of the block. What are you going to do with those strong rods and pistons? I think you've got something up your sleeve.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Scott - Thanks for the tip. I did keep all the backsides and corresponding bores dry. I did not apply lube to any of the bearings until they were seated completely in their bores. It was tough cleaning the white lithium grease out of the mains because some squeezed through the feed holes down into the block, but I'm confident I got it all out. I am still curious if the assembly lube that got on the flat surfaces between the rod caps and rods will make any difference. I don't know how to keep that out of there - I just hope it squeezes out on final torque.

Dan - It sucks the block does still have rust. Other than dipping the whole block in "Evaporust", I have no idea how I'd get it off. All the machined surfaces look good though. I think what's left is just cosmetic. Any ideas for getting it off?

Update

I had a productive weekend, but unfortunately haven't been able to upload my photos yet. I took apart my phaser completely, down to the individual loose components. To some degree I just couldn't help myself - I wanted to see how it worked. There are some very nicely made parts in there with very tight fits. I don't know how GM can sell replacements for around $100 list. Each phaser vane has a small leaf spring that keeps it biased outward (careful - these are easy to lose). The hub in the center that attaches to the cam is a very tight rotating fit with the housing. There are tiny feed holes all over the place for oil. And there's a small spring loaded plunger behind the hub that seems to either regulate oil flow or maybe act as a detent - I'm not sure. The trigger wheel that also retains the "clock" spring is held by 3 extremely small press pins. If you take it apart this far be very careful not to lose parts and also to get each part back together in the correct orientation/clocking so you don't inadvertently affect the came phasing. I took photos as I took it apart and tracked parts on the workbench to make sure they got right back to where they started.

One of the questions I wanted to answer was can this thing be put back together? My conclusion is, maybe. The coil spring is extremely stiff so it would be very hard to rewind. There appear to be some access holes on the trigger wheel where you could put pins to temporarily hold the spring together while assembling it onto the rest of the phaser. I think once you get the spring wound, the rest of the assembly can be done and would be reasonably straight forward, but winding that spring will be extremely difficult. I plan to give this a try once I'm done with this phaser, but I plan to buy a new one regardless for actual use.

Okay, so on to the progress. After disassembling the phaser, I added the phaser limiter block from Comp Cams. I found that the screws holding the phaser together were actually the perfect diameter to block the vanes into the fully advanced position, so I cut a screw and put it in. This would seem like a waste of a screw, but I had other troubles that led me there. On an initial assembly, one of the torx drives completely stripped out of one of the phaser bolts. Maybe I applied too much torque or maybe the tool didn't fit well, but the result was drilling out the head of the screw so I could get it out. What a pain that was. I will be VERY careful torquing these next time.

With the phaser locked in the fully advanced position, I installed the cam and got started degreeing it using the no1 cylinder and measuring from my solid lifters. I found TDC using the indicator method, looking for the spots on either side of TDC where the piston was .100 below peak. I measured each side of TDC with the piston coming up from the bottom of the bore after pressing down on the piston by hand to take out slack in the bearing/pin clearances (had to rotate CW for one and CCW for the other to make this happen). I checked it 3 times to make sure it was right; each time .100 corresponded to equal distance on either side of TDC on the degree wheel. For the cam timing, I measured through three revolutions for both intake & exhaust and got the same values each time. I will outline the steps once I upload photos, but let me just discuss the results for now:
Compared to the cam card, the cam appears to be advanced ~1.25deg (easily adjusted w/ VVT). The intake has 0.5deg more duration & 0.001in more tappet lift. The exhaust has 1deg more duration. The LSA seems to split the difference between what's stated on the cam card and what I calculated from the cam card open/close events.

I'm not 100% sure what the acceptance limits should be for a cam. My gut says these numbers are fine, but what do you think?

The next step is to check piston-valve clearance. I got everything setup last night, but had to stop work to get to bed (will outline with photos later). I had one observation I thought I should ask about. All the rocker arms seem to have a lot of play in the trunnion bearings. I can shift them up & down by what feels like .005-.010in and rock them off angle from their shafts. Is this an intentional design "feature" for self alignment or is something wrong?

MisterD

Bandit, I have been following your trials and tribulations for some time now and I am HAPPY to see you are making progress on this build. Seeing your progress and photos really motivates me to build my own 6.0 some day. I plan to search around for a good core once I am finished swapping my LS1 pullout engine in my car. My hands are full with just getting the conversion done but some day I may take on the challenge of building my own. Looking really good and thanks for the pics!!!!

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

As promised, here are some photos of my progress. First, here is the disassembled phaser with both the Comp Cams limiter and a cut-down screw (very hard to see sorry) between the vanes to lock it into a fully advanced position. You are looking at the rear of the assembly in this photo, so rotating the vanes CCW here will rotate the cam CW (advanced) with respect to the engine. Note you can also see in the top right of this photo the unsprung "clock" spring that keeps this assembly in the advanced position when no oil pressure is applied.



I lubed the cam with assembly lube and carefully installed it in the block while holding it with the long bolt supplied with the cam. Then I installed the timing set "dot-to-dot", using the long bolt to pull the cam forward while seating the phaser onto the cam pin. Note in these photos I have an allen wrench installed to keep the tensioner held back, but later removed it during the degreeing process.





Next I installed the degree wheel I bought from Summit. I fashioned a pointer from a coat hanger and mounted it on the front of the block, cutting the end to a point for improved accuracy. Then I used a magnetic base indicator stand to position my indicator over the center of the piston. I used the method described in my previous post to find TDC and adjusted the pointer appropriately.





After cleaning and oiling the outside of my welded-solid lifters, I installed them in their bores over the cam lobe and made sure they moved freely. Next came the most challenging aspect of this - getting this stand adjusted so I could actually measure. It sounds silly, but it did take a bit of time just finding a good way to position the arms to make this work. I also had to install an extended tip on my indicator to make it reach. Fortunately I have a set of tips in my machinist box. I have to admit this stand and indicator came from Harbor Freight many years ago when I only intended to use them once for setting up gears. I have some better quality indicators in my box, but none with enough travel for this job.



Here you can see I used the edge of the lifter to read from. Even though the plunger was welded on these lifters, I felt the flat surface on the outside would be a better location to read from.



The results of degreeing the cam are described in my previous post. Altogether it took about two hours and probably less than $50 in tools between the Summit wheel, coat hanger and HF indicator & stand. When i get further along I will be repeating some of these measurements with the phaser locked to full retard so I can see how much mechanical phaser travel is available.

Next I moved on to piston-valve clearance. The first step was cleaning and installing the old MLS head gaskets. The new gaskets I bought are the same GM part number, so these old gaskets should replicate the compressed thickness.



Installing the head took some time because I am using ARP fasteners and needed to lube them with the ARP thread lube. This is important because it gives more consistent clamping. I put a dab under the head of the bolt, a dab under the washer, and a smearing over the first ten threads or more which tends to be enough to coat them completely while they're installed. I torqued the bolts using the factory-recommended sequence in 3 steps per the ARP instructions. Then I came up with yet another creative way to position my indicator stand to measure valve-piston clearance.





Before installing the rockers, I dropped in an adjustable pushrod so I can acheive zero lash. My plan is to rotate the crank in small increments (using the degree wheel for reference), push the valve down with my finger until it contacts the piston, and measuring the valve travel with the indicator positioned as above. This will tell me the valve clearance for that position of the crank. I will have to repeat until I find the minimum clearance. I will do this for both the intake and exhaust, although the intake should be most limited in this scenario with the phaser fully advanced since the intake will be opening sooner as the piston is approaching TDC. When the phaser is fully retarded, the exhaust valve will have it's minimum clearance since it will be closing later as the piston approaches TDC.

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

Great to see your making progress! The engine is coming together quite nicely.
I do have one question though, is it not necessary to have the lifter trays in when checking the cam timing and such? Do the lifter trays help keep the lifters square to the cam?

I like the idea of the phaser especially on larger cams. Best of both worlds with that system.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Tony - Thanks man! I am really stoked to be making progress again. Things are going smoothly so far and I am very excited to be building this engine myself. It's the first time I've put together a shortblock. I'll be proud to say I built it myself once it's running.

Good question on the lifter trays. Leaving the trays out is what was recommended in the SA design book on rebuilding LS engines. The reason is they add enough resistance that the lifters will not reliably ride the cam on the way back down during valve closing events. Aligning the roller properly on the cam is very important, but it's not difficult to do especially on these no 1 lobes where you can actually see the rollers on the lobes through openings in the block. I spun the cam over a number of times to make sure it was riding correctly and visually verified it was in the appropriate orientation before taking measurements.

This has been really bother me, so I did some additional research and decided to do something about it. I know Comp Cams sells a trunion & bearing upgrade setup, but I contacted Hardland Sharp instead to see what I could learn about their product. I spoke to Randy Jr, son of the owner (Randy Sr) at length about what they offer. Here is a photo:



As an engineer, I was pleased to get real technical information and hear some of the differences between the HS kit and the Comp kit as well as understand the manufacturing processes and tolerances associated with the components. Design wise they are very similar, but HS does have two notable differences. First, HS cross drills their journals to provide access for splash oil to get to the bearings. With the bearing cage in place, there is less opportunity for oil to make its way in (compared to a factory rocker), so this is a definite plus over the Comp design. Second, the HS trunions include hardened washers between the c-clips and the rocker. The HS parts are 100% US made; the cap screws, retaining clips, washers, and bearings are all US parts. The trunions are centerless ground in house by HS. The bearings themselves are the same part from the same US manufacturer as the Comp kit.

Beyond the technical details, I was impressed with Randy's open and friendly communication and have a huge amount of respect for a successful family-run business. If you are considering a trunion upgrade, I would strongly consider calling them. I will also say that while the HS kit cost more than the Comp kit, it isn't as big of a discrepancy as the website pricing would have you think. I decided to buy the HS kit and paid considerably less than their advertised price.

One other note from my conversation with Randy while it's fresh in mind. I told Randy I had heard of some people experiencing binding after installing the Comp kit. Since HS prefers to install these themselves for their customers, I asked what I should look out for that might cause that kind of issue. He said you need to be careful during assembly not to press the bearing against the trunion. There should be some side clearance between the bearing cage and the stepped diameter of the trunion or binding will occur. If you press these together and find they are not moving freely, you can lightly tap on the trunion to shift the bearing race in its bore and reintroduce clearance.