tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

Can you take some pictures of the interference so we can try to help you figure it out? I am using the Moroso pan and have my engine sitting about where yours is from the firewall with plenty of clearance. I can measure the lengths of my idler and pitman prolly tomorrow if you want me to. Sorry to hear you have hit a snag, but remember its just a minor set back!!! Keep plugging away I am sure you will figure it out. I had a heck of a time getting mine to line up and also had to notch the crossmember. I thought I was never going to get it right.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Here is where she sits



Here you can see the hole in the block is 1/4" in front of the hole in the motor mount. I wanted to measure as a sanity check. These should be 1/4" forward of Autokraft mounts.



This is where the driver's side TRE is hitting. It is pretty much right in line with the weld on the corner of the pan.





This is how far I am from the steering stop located on the LCA



This is the passenger side which is sligthly worse. I measured both my pitman (driver) and idler (passenger) arms; pitman is about 5-3/4" and idler about 5-1/4". This is consistent with a "long" pitman and "short" idler like what David Pozzi talks about on his website here. Both of mine are aftermarket replacements of the originals as are the TREs.





In these next two pictures you can see where I dented the #5 primary. Even with this the headers still don't quite fit. They need more massaging around the pitman arm and further down on the box. The ceramic chipped a little bit





futureuser, I haven't heard of the short frame stands placing the engine further back, but that would be interesting to know. I asked several before who used the AK plates and pan if there was ample room to move forward and all replied yes. I even asked Kurt at Autokraft and he said there should be plenty of clearance to do what I'm doing. I'm a bit stumped at the moment, but I'm sure I'll figure it out.

tsnow thanks for the encouragement. I appreciate the offer to measure your steering linkage, but don't worry about it. I think mine is normal.

You guys have been through a lot worse snags than this. I can't complain too much. At least my mounts mated up on the first try! Ha!

scherp69 I will gladly trade you my mill for some of the parts pictured in your build. I paid $650 for it at an auction a couple years ago. It's just a chinese mill, little smaller than a Bridgeport but works very well for my purposes. Money well spent.

sdwolf I haven't set any solid plans my fuel system yet. I have been thinking about retrofiting a stainless steel replacement tank with the Vaporworx pump system, but thinking is all.

zman1969

iTrader: (91)

Clint, beautiful build! I read along and am still wondering about the VVT. I have a LY6 that I'm building for my son and a 64 Chevelle 4door wagon beater. The cam went flat on a lobe and was replaced by the dealer. I was planning ditching the VVT I have picked up a cheap LS7 cam and a ls2 timing cover I plan on running F-body accy on it. I dont recall seeing what cam you chose either- did I miss that? Keep up the good work!

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

zman - Thanks! I have not chosen a cam yet. I'm putting the decision off as long as possible to see what else comes up. I did start this thread a long time ago and it's been collecting info on VVT cams: https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-vvt-cams.html As of today, the Texas Speed cams look the most promising due to their higher valve lifts, but I have to wonder why Mast and Comp run about 0.030-0.040in less lift than the range TSP shows. If you are eliminating VVT you have a lot more options.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Based on the picture below I think I can move the engine back to a "0" position or maybe even further and still be able to notch the frame for the AC. That may take care of my steering and header issues in one move, but would mean making yet another set of mounts. It may also cause evaporator interference and other yet uknown issues. We'll see.

zman1969

iTrader: (91)

OK I read all that - now my head is spinning good stuff but this build is going to be "on the cheap" and i agree moving motor back 1/4-1/2" should clear up those issues but take a long look at may add others.

Jimbo1367

LOL. Always seems to work that way

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

You could remove the factory tie rod ends and use a set of hiems joints. Speedway has several to choose from. One part number pokes out 175-0325 for the LH and 175-0125 for the right hand. These have a 1/2" stud and thread. $10.99 each. You can make the adjustable link out of some aluminum bar stock. This may prevent the inners from protruding out so far to clear the pan. Refrsh my memory, you lifted the engine to try and clear the compressor from the subframe? correct? You are going to notch it anyways right? I say lower the engine back down and rearward since you are going to notch the sub anyways. This will allow the headers to clear the evap and give clearance at the steering components. Buy a Kwik A/C bracket and move it up top. No notching required! What do you think?

futureuser

iTrader: (1)

I think tonight we're going to see Bandit's new custom center link machined out of billet aluminum, done in his garage!

The reason he doesn't use quik brackets is because he thinks they're ugly and he's saving room for his twin 76mm hairdryers!

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

I like their A/C bracket the best. I love the simplicity of them. Not dishing on their alternator bracket but I like my factory one piece better. But if it wasnt available I would definately buy the Kwik. It sure would save him alot of trouble if he bought the Kwik A/C bracket.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

As always I appreciate the ideas and discussion. I have confidence I'll get this to work without too much headache and without modifying the steering or oil pan. My tentative plan at this point is to make another set of adapters that move the engine back to a "0" position and lift it 3/4" instead of 1". Before making chips, I will mock this up using the current adapters by removing the backing plate from the SBC mounts and sliding the engine back so it just rests at the lower/back position. I don't know if 1/4" back is going to do the trick for the steering, so we'll just have to see. It would be the first case I've seen of an Autokraft pan interfering with the steering linkage on this type of subframe using a "0" setback position.

Having the engine in the current position has allowed me to make better measurements and mock up parts. I was able to install the AC bracket & tensioner without any clearance issues and there's about 3/4" between it and the swaybar. It completely clears the frame and should still clear if I lower the engine 1/4". The AC compressor itself sorta fits, but can't go all the way back into position until the frame is notched and there would be no access to the lower mounting bolts, so yes the frame will still need notching, but it looks like I can get away with a lower engine position. Moving the engine back to a "0" setback will make things really tight behind the compressor, but I think it's doable.

The alternator has about 1/2" clearance all the way around and enough room for both the connector to the wire harness and the battery connection. No frame notching required at all on that side and hopefully still none after going to a more back & lower position.

As for the Kwik bracket, I don't hate it I just don't like it either. Mostly it is a problem with aesthetics for me, not so much in the simple plate/spacer design of the bracket but more that I don't like the compressor and hoses hanging up high off the engine. The other problem I have with it is that the ac compressor does not get a dedicated belt and it's the last driven accessory in the chain, so the whole belt gets the load of the AC compressor. That is harder on bearings for all the other accessories in the chain. If you look at the LS4 engine which is designed for a single accessory belt, the AC compressor is on the other side of the engine and it's the first accessory driven from the crank.

I am not really looking to save time. I'm always happy to avoid trouble, but this is a project for the sake of a project as much as it is a project with results in mind. I really enjoy the tinkering aspects of this and it will be very satisfying to get it to work in the end. Like I said I'm in no rush.

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

Good luck with the engine move! I understand about doing it the way you want to. I will have to disagree on the extra load on the bearings and such though. The 6 rib belt runs at hardly any tension as compared to the old v-belts use to. For example, I have 1994 Chevrolet 1500 with the 5.7 that only has one belt and the A/C compressor is last in line to be driven and it has run non stop for over 130,000 miles. I didnt change the belt until it had over 100,000 miles on it. The tensioners on the ribbed belts absorb quite a bit of the initial load. The surface area of the 6 rib is far superior to the standard v-belt, hence lower tension required. I understand the reasoning behind your decision though, the further from visibility the compressor is the better it looks. I just wish I could have clearance to run mine underneath as you are. I didnt mind the notching as much as the compressor hitting the sway bar. That was with the small factory sway bar at that. I want the 1 1/8" aftermarket sway bar and that would be a big heck no with the compressor down low. I had thought about mounting it on the passenger side but that means longer hoses and such. Keeping digging man your almost there.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

The belt & bearing loads may not be a significant factor. I honestly don't know. But I have to think there's a good reason the factory uses a dedicated belt and tensioner for the compressor.

Last night I lifted the engine, removed the backing plates on the SBC motor mounts, and shifted it back to an approximately "0" setback position. This is the position where the one loaner hole on the SBC mount lines up with the forward hole on the LSx block. The backing plates are 0.166in thick which provided 0.235in (~1/4") lift (good old 45deg angle gives you thickness times sqrt of 2), so removing them put me at approximately 0.707in (3/4") lift compared to the Autokraft adapters. Having the engine back and lower did wonders for the TRE clearance. The passenger side was able to clear. The driver's side still hit the pan, but with only about 1/16" of gap at the steering stop. It's hard to say exactly what will happen when I bolt up an actual set of mounts because there is error in all the positioning, hole clearances, etc that can shift things around.

I bolted on the AC compressor bracket & tensioner and it still cleared the frame and swaybar at the lower 3/4" lift engine position. I am using a 1-1/8" Helwig swaybar, which is significantly larger than the factory 11/16" bar (and about 5-6 times stiffer). The compressor should still work with frame notching.

I would like to try the driver's side header again with this engine position, but without the engine bolted down I'd be very reluctant to lift the nose of the car to get the header in from underneath. I may have to take a gamble on the header fitment.

I will check a few more things while the engine is loosely in this position, then I think it's time to make some chips and try again.

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

Great news all around!
Does the passenger header clear the the suitcase?

futureuser

iTrader: (1)

Good to hear you almost have it figured out.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Well I drilled a second pattern on these plates, removed the SBC backing plate, and bolted the engine in a position that *should* be 0.707" higher and 1/8" setback from the Autokraft/neutral position (3/8" behind and 1/4" dropped from where I had it before). I raised the rear of the tranny so it was about 3/4" off it's original mounting pad, attempting to get the drivetrain at about the right angle. Still the tie rods hit the pan before the steering stops. I tried the A/C suitcase, but there isn't quite enough room to get it onto the firewall mounting stud that's behind the head. It's doable, I just need to slot the hole so it can be installed from the side instead of the front. I haven't tried the headers yet.

I wonder if the car has excessive static toe which would require more travel from the steering before hitting the stops. Looking at other pics of full lock like futureusers, it seems like their TREs do not travel side-to-side as close to the pan as mine. Not sure what to do at this point. Maybe just limit the steering a bit and live with it.

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

I say rack and pinion front steer, problem solved! I am sure you could make the required rack mounts and flip the tie rod arms around right to left and such.

futureuser

iTrader: (1)

Good job Clint. Hey, I just read in an LS1 book that the reason for the extra belt for the a/c was for noise reduction, as it reduced noise from the engine comp't. I can give you the reference if you are interested. I am not missing that noise reduction with my 3 inch exhaust, solid mounts and bare floor. Oddly enough, the engineers couldn't do much about valvetrain noise.

billsnogo

iTrader: (7)

Great build! I would love to have vvt and a/c on my car (not to mention a vinyl top )

I will need to keep checking up on your progress

tsnow678

iTrader: (3)

Where you been? I see you have time to be on LS1Tech so that means you have time to work on the car. Did you get the motor mount situation straightened out?