88 Fiero Formula LS4/F40 6 speed swap
08-22-2013, 10:14 AM
#163
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I too just read this whole thread! Like watching/read 3 hours of car ****...I feel like I need to go smoke a cigarette...and I don't smoke...lol! Sir, you are my hero!! I love what you have done. Been on the fence about going to the LS Fest...but knowing you're going to be there...I think you just made up my mind!
Thank you sir, for sharing this with us!
Russel...
Thank you sir, for sharing this with us!
Russel...
08-22-2013, 05:56 PM
#164
Thanks for the compliments guys!
No, it will not pull the front wheels, but it should launch pretty hard with the drive-line weight right over the rear wheels.
The swap has been doing fine for the daily commute, even in the rain. It now gets between 21-23 mpg for my daily commute running 100% open loop, depending on how I drive it.
I am hoping to get a new set of tires for the rear before the LS Fest, but 245/24/16's are somewhat hard to get. I will likely get the Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 from tire rack, but they are currently back ordered so I don't know if I could get them before the LS Fest.
Only 2 items I need to fix before the LS fest is getting the horn to work and mounting a fire extinguisher in the passenger compartment.
No, it will not pull the front wheels, but it should launch pretty hard with the drive-line weight right over the rear wheels.
The swap has been doing fine for the daily commute, even in the rain. It now gets between 21-23 mpg for my daily commute running 100% open loop, depending on how I drive it.
I am hoping to get a new set of tires for the rear before the LS Fest, but 245/24/16's are somewhat hard to get. I will likely get the Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 from tire rack, but they are currently back ordered so I don't know if I could get them before the LS Fest.
Only 2 items I need to fix before the LS fest is getting the horn to work and mounting a fire extinguisher in the passenger compartment.
08-22-2013, 08:53 PM
#165
Yes, nicely done fab work fg. As far as getting the Dod to work I had dicsussed it a bit with the TPIS at their tent during The Car Craft Summer Nats here last month because I'd like to also keep it functional if possible. He said that he's had to reprogram it for some people because of it's problems "hunting" or kicking in & out constantly. He simply sets it up to run off map, rpm, and a minimum mph. So it's not trying to figure it out using all the algorythms & load calculations or however GM tries to program it. Really you only want it to engage above 50mph at cruise anyway so why make it complicated if it doesn't have to be?
08-23-2013, 12:29 PM
#167
Thanks for the compliments!
I have made all the adjustments to DoD so it would only work in 5th and 6th gears on the highway, but it still refused to even make an attempt to engage. The service manual lists all the parameters that will inhibit DoD activation, so a few weeks back I made a list with the expected values, made sure I was logging those values, then did a highway run. With the data I went item by item and crossed off everything I could verify to be within expected parameters. What I was left with was the brake torque enabled item. The LS4's have this disabled stock, but it ties into the brake switch sensor, which goes through the BCM and then to the ECM via the CAN wires.
Since I am not running the BCM, I don't have acces to this brake switch, so I am pretty sure that is the reason DoD does not work. Its also the same reason why electronic cruise won't work and why the case learn can't be done.
I really don't want to add in the BCM, so I am looking into having a controller setup that would accept the brake sensor inputs and send the appropriate signals across the CAN line to the ECM, but this will be a long process.
I have made all the adjustments to DoD so it would only work in 5th and 6th gears on the highway, but it still refused to even make an attempt to engage. The service manual lists all the parameters that will inhibit DoD activation, so a few weeks back I made a list with the expected values, made sure I was logging those values, then did a highway run. With the data I went item by item and crossed off everything I could verify to be within expected parameters. What I was left with was the brake torque enabled item. The LS4's have this disabled stock, but it ties into the brake switch sensor, which goes through the BCM and then to the ECM via the CAN wires.
Since I am not running the BCM, I don't have acces to this brake switch, so I am pretty sure that is the reason DoD does not work. Its also the same reason why electronic cruise won't work and why the case learn can't be done.
I really don't want to add in the BCM, so I am looking into having a controller setup that would accept the brake sensor inputs and send the appropriate signals across the CAN line to the ECM, but this will be a long process.
08-24-2013, 09:30 AM
#168
Hmmmm, that's alot of s@$# to have to deal with to get it working. Engine oil aeration present? Fer crying out loud. Brake torque? That term is what most people use to show torque at the flywheel. So that I'm assuming is something calculated between rpm, the TCC slip percentage which I suppose was calculated from the 4T65's input speed sensor and VSS. At least when I think of brake torque I think engine not the brakes.
09-06-2013, 05:35 AM
#169
Heading out to the LS Fest in the next hour.
Should have a good interstate run (Bowling Green is 2.5 hrs away) to check the interstate mileage with the open loop tune and the taller rear tires. Today I have to tech in and should get a few runs at the autocross and 1/4 mile.
Should have a good interstate run (Bowling Green is 2.5 hrs away) to check the interstate mileage with the open loop tune and the taller rear tires. Today I have to tech in and should get a few runs at the autocross and 1/4 mile.
09-11-2013, 08:24 PM
#171
LS Fest was a blast, I got to beat the crap out of the car and came back with a list of future upgrades so I will do better next year. While there I did:
12... 1/4 mile passes
10... autocross passes
8..... 3S event runs
Only issue I had all weekend was with a "C-clip" on one of the shifter cables came off after run 2 of the 3 back to back runs for Real Street. I had to limp the car back to the pits in 3rd gear and DNF for my 3rd run. The c-clip was still on the transmission, so I bent it to be tighter and slid it back into place.
The best 1/4 mile pass was 12.896 @ 114.10, I had 3 in the 12's and the rest were mid to low 13's (and one 14....). Two biggest issues were traction at launch and the speed of the 2-3 shift. I have since logged while doing a WOT 2-3 shifts and it takes 0.8 to 1.5 seconds to complete the shift. I think I am hitting 3/5 at the same time... So I ordered the parts to rebuild the shifter (it has 5/8" slop side to side with the transmission in gear - everything else is new). I may also check the mounting of the shifter to make sure it isn't cocked, or I may **** it to the passenger side to make 5th further away. If that doesn't work, I will increase the self center spring tension to the 3/4 gate.
If I can do a proper launch (better/wider rear tires) and fix the 2-3 shift delay, I think the car could break into the 11's at 116-117 mph
I was 51 out of 75ish on the autocross. My tires were not the best compound for autocross, nor were they anywhere wide enough (205/50/16 in the front and 245/50/16 in the rear), but it was a lot of fun to toss the car around. The car needs stiffer springs, better shocks and much wider/stickier tires front/rear to be more competitive.
The 3S was really a hand full. Launch in 1st, shift to 2nd, brake/downshift/turn 180, blip 1st, shift to 2nd, zig zag through cones while building speed, jam on the brakes and stay in the box... The car needs power steering and a quicker ratio (manual rack with 3 turns lock to lock is a bit much for tight 180 turns) as well as the mods for better autocross times.
Like I said, it was a blast and I will be back next year with some additional upgrades to further improve performance.
12... 1/4 mile passes
10... autocross passes
8..... 3S event runs
Only issue I had all weekend was with a "C-clip" on one of the shifter cables came off after run 2 of the 3 back to back runs for Real Street. I had to limp the car back to the pits in 3rd gear and DNF for my 3rd run. The c-clip was still on the transmission, so I bent it to be tighter and slid it back into place.
The best 1/4 mile pass was 12.896 @ 114.10, I had 3 in the 12's and the rest were mid to low 13's (and one 14....). Two biggest issues were traction at launch and the speed of the 2-3 shift. I have since logged while doing a WOT 2-3 shifts and it takes 0.8 to 1.5 seconds to complete the shift. I think I am hitting 3/5 at the same time... So I ordered the parts to rebuild the shifter (it has 5/8" slop side to side with the transmission in gear - everything else is new). I may also check the mounting of the shifter to make sure it isn't cocked, or I may **** it to the passenger side to make 5th further away. If that doesn't work, I will increase the self center spring tension to the 3/4 gate.
If I can do a proper launch (better/wider rear tires) and fix the 2-3 shift delay, I think the car could break into the 11's at 116-117 mph
I was 51 out of 75ish on the autocross. My tires were not the best compound for autocross, nor were they anywhere wide enough (205/50/16 in the front and 245/50/16 in the rear), but it was a lot of fun to toss the car around. The car needs stiffer springs, better shocks and much wider/stickier tires front/rear to be more competitive.
The 3S was really a hand full. Launch in 1st, shift to 2nd, brake/downshift/turn 180, blip 1st, shift to 2nd, zig zag through cones while building speed, jam on the brakes and stay in the box... The car needs power steering and a quicker ratio (manual rack with 3 turns lock to lock is a bit much for tight 180 turns) as well as the mods for better autocross times.
Like I said, it was a blast and I will be back next year with some additional upgrades to further improve performance.
09-29-2013, 03:25 PM
#172
Haven't done much to the car since the LS Fest, besides drive it back and forth to work every day. I did rebuild my sloppy shifter and change the throttle follower parameters back to stock LS2 values. These seemed to help the 2-3 shift, but I haven't done much further testing.
Then today, for the second time now, I lost gear shift capability while driving. First time was at the LS Fest when the shifter cable c-clip fell off on a 1/4 mile pass and I was stuck in 4th gear till I limped it back to the pits. Reinstalled the c-clip and life was good.
Today while going into town, a similar thing happened and all I had was 3rd gear. I had just left the house and was only a few miles away, so I drove it in 3rd till I found a place I could turn around in and limped the car home. I thought it was the c-clip again... but it wasn't:
I broke the shift cable right where it meets the solid shaft. This is one of the few aspects of the swap where I didn't reinvent the wheel and used what others had done (modified getrag select cable for both shift and select functions). The getrag select cable is smaller than the getrag shift cable, and I think the reduced thickness and the length of the solid portion of the cable are contributors to the failure (along with all the abusive shifting).
To engage 3rd gear, here is where the end of the solid portion of the cable is. It is at the very end of the support sleeve (which I trimmed down as part of the modification) and 1 7/16" from the shifter bracket. I use the support sleeve term loosely, as the support sleeve is quite movable and would still allow the wire portion of the cable to flex/bend as the shifter engages 1/3/5 gears. This flexing/bending might be contributing the issues with the 2-3 upshift, as engaging R/1/3/5 was always more difficult than 2/3/6:
Here is the position with the shifter in 2/4/6, the solid portion is well within the sleeve of the cable:
The actual select cable doesn't see nearly the same frequency of movement with the extremes of fully extended/fully retracted. Even so, the solid portion of the cable is further into the support sleeve at full extension (Reverse) and only 1 1/8" past the shifter bracket:
Here is the 5th and 6th position:
Short term, I am just going to buy another getrag select cable and install it so I can get the car back on the road with minimal work. Winter is coming and I won't be beating on the car like I was, so it should last until I am done with the SBC/F23 swap I am working on. Once it is back with its owner, I can bring the LS4/F40 car back into the garage to redesign the whole shifter/cable setup with a custom set of cables.
Until the new shifter cable arrives, I am back to driving the 2.5/125C Fiero... so instead of 420ish fwhp, I have 90ish... not nearly as fun to drive.
Then today, for the second time now, I lost gear shift capability while driving. First time was at the LS Fest when the shifter cable c-clip fell off on a 1/4 mile pass and I was stuck in 4th gear till I limped it back to the pits. Reinstalled the c-clip and life was good.
Today while going into town, a similar thing happened and all I had was 3rd gear. I had just left the house and was only a few miles away, so I drove it in 3rd till I found a place I could turn around in and limped the car home. I thought it was the c-clip again... but it wasn't:
I broke the shift cable right where it meets the solid shaft. This is one of the few aspects of the swap where I didn't reinvent the wheel and used what others had done (modified getrag select cable for both shift and select functions). The getrag select cable is smaller than the getrag shift cable, and I think the reduced thickness and the length of the solid portion of the cable are contributors to the failure (along with all the abusive shifting).
To engage 3rd gear, here is where the end of the solid portion of the cable is. It is at the very end of the support sleeve (which I trimmed down as part of the modification) and 1 7/16" from the shifter bracket. I use the support sleeve term loosely, as the support sleeve is quite movable and would still allow the wire portion of the cable to flex/bend as the shifter engages 1/3/5 gears. This flexing/bending might be contributing the issues with the 2-3 upshift, as engaging R/1/3/5 was always more difficult than 2/3/6:
Here is the position with the shifter in 2/4/6, the solid portion is well within the sleeve of the cable:
The actual select cable doesn't see nearly the same frequency of movement with the extremes of fully extended/fully retracted. Even so, the solid portion of the cable is further into the support sleeve at full extension (Reverse) and only 1 1/8" past the shifter bracket:
Here is the 5th and 6th position:
Short term, I am just going to buy another getrag select cable and install it so I can get the car back on the road with minimal work. Winter is coming and I won't be beating on the car like I was, so it should last until I am done with the SBC/F23 swap I am working on. Once it is back with its owner, I can bring the LS4/F40 car back into the garage to redesign the whole shifter/cable setup with a custom set of cables.
Until the new shifter cable arrives, I am back to driving the 2.5/125C Fiero... so instead of 420ish fwhp, I have 90ish... not nearly as fun to drive.
10-16-2013, 07:38 AM
#174
If you are looking for a LS4/F40 6 speed manual, AWD in a current FWD car, then you might want to watch this thread as the swap progresses.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...0-6-speed.html
10-16-2013, 10:01 AM
#175
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Really nice build.
May ask if the DoD is working? I've been curious how effective it would be in a light car. The truck guys seem to pick up only 1 mpg or so.
12-21-2013, 08:40 AM
#177
Just a winter update on the Dyna-Batt battery. It seems to be doing quite well. I have started the car when it was 16 degrees out as well as started the car after sitting for 2 weeks with temps dropping into the 20's... so far the battery is holding up during the winter months!
02-09-2014, 11:28 AM
#179
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Fieroguru,
Well…. you just never know who you'll bump into. I was Russ544 over on the P forum a few years ago, and glad to see that you're "still crazy after all these years"
ha ha. I sold my last 2 remaining Fieros (sbc and N*) but still have a N* with my ITB setup in the T bucket and a 62 Vette with L-98 and ZF 6 speed to play with. I'm retired and mostly building early Vettes now to kill the time, but also just starting a 59 Bel Air LSx T-56 resto-mod project. I guess I always enjoyed following your builds cause you'r even crazier than I am when it comes to "out of the box" combinations, and this one sure looks right up your ally 
. I just happened on this thread today, so I'll have to go catch up on the remaining 7 pages that I haven't read yet. 
Take care my friend,
Russ
Well…. you just never know who you'll bump into. I was Russ544 over on the P forum a few years ago, and glad to see that you're "still crazy after all these years"
ha ha. I sold my last 2 remaining Fieros (sbc and N*) but still have a N* with my ITB setup in the T bucket and a 62 Vette with L-98 and ZF 6 speed to play with. I'm retired and mostly building early Vettes now to kill the time, but also just starting a 59 Bel Air LSx T-56 resto-mod project. I guess I always enjoyed following your builds cause you'r even crazier than I am when it comes to "out of the box" combinations, and this one sure looks right up your ally . I just happened on this thread today, so I'll have to go catch up on the remaining 7 pages that I haven't read yet. Take care my friend,
Russ
