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Is the spacer centered by the spindle hub or the lugs?
From the following pic, the wheels are definitely centered by the lugs, right?
I'm no expert but it is easy to produce a vibration if the wheels are centered off of the lugs vs the hub. I would think that would be a likely culprit.
Probably a good idea to run a hub and wheel centric spacer.
I never had good luck with those balance beads in my motorcycle tires. Tried them a few times and always ended up going back to stick on weights.
Originally Posted by zTimbo
Same here, I've always thought they were a bit of a gimmick because I've never had any luck with them either.
Originally Posted by 350SS
Is the spacer centered by the spindle hub or the lugs?
From the following pic, the wheels are definitely centered by the lugs, right?
I'm no expert but it is easy to produce a vibration if the wheels are centered off of the lugs vs the hub. I would think that would be a likely culprit.
Probably a good idea to run a hub and wheel centric spacer.
You are right, neither the wheel nor the pacer are hub centric. If it was just the wheel, I wouldn't be worried because the lugs have a cone and do a good job of centering the wheels. But the way it is now, the spacer is not registered by anything, which is not ideal. I really want to ditch the spacer, but I am at a loss as to how to make these brakes work with the wheels that I already have (and spent a lot of money making them look how I want).
At this point, if the problem is the spacer, the most cost effective thing to do might be to get different brakes. I hate to do that, because these brakes work great, but I can't have a vibrating car going down the highway.
You are right, neither the wheel nor the pacer are hub centric. If it was just the wheel, I wouldn't be worried because the lugs have a cone and do a good job of centering the wheels. But the way it is now, the spacer is not registered by anything, which is not ideal. I really want to ditch the spacer, but I am at a loss as to how to make these brakes work with the wheels that I already have (and spent a lot of money making them look how I want).
At this point, if the problem is the spacer, the most cost effective thing to do might be to get different brakes. I hate to do that, because these brakes work great, but I can't have a vibrating car going down the highway.
Andrew
Another option might be to have someone weld the spacer to the back of the wheel. It sounds kinda ghetto, but several wheel manufacturers do something similar to this. I still think the issue may be the beads though.
I would think getting a set of hub/wheel centric spacers would be more cost effective (and less work) than changing out the brakes. Last set I bought was about 100 a pair IIRC. google motorsport tech spacers, they are made to order. if your spindle hub diameter and your wheel bore diameter are the same you might luck out and be able to find a cheaper set on ebay (40-60 bucks maybe?).
Slip-on spacers that aren't hubcentric strike me as a terrible, terrible idea - seems like that's a recipe for the sort of balance issues you're seeing. I'm with 350SS, get some hubcentric rings to make the spacers hubcentric. You could get rings to make the wheels hubcentric, too, but I would tend to agree with you (based on my experience) that the conical lug nuts should center the wheel properly whether you have hubcentric rings for the wheels or not.
A set of hubcentric rings would be a helluva lot more cost effective than starting over with a whole new brake setup (and throwing away the work you did to make the brakes fit right and look good). Based on the rings I've got, you'd probably have to bevel the inner diameter of the spacers to allow the rings to seat properly, but that's not a big deal.
I'm assuming at $100/pair that 350SS had aluminum ones made, but you can get the plastic hubcentric rings a helluva lot cheaper than that. Summit has sets of 4 for $21 and less; not sure they have the diameters you need, but that gives an idea of what they should cost. I know some folks don't like the idea of plastic ones, but in my experience there's no reason not to use them. They're a dense, strong type of plastic - I had a set of auto-x/track wheels for my Subaru with plastic hubcentric rings that I used for over a decade without a problem (and I'm assuming the next owner of the wheels is still using them to this day).
I appreciate the input guys. The spacer isn't really the issue here. The real issue is that I can't properly balance the wheel because there is zero room between the inner lip of the wheel and the caliper. There is so little room, that even stick on weights won't fit.
The real issue with the spacer is that is is increasing the scrub radius. This issue is exaggerated by the fact that the wheels are so skinny. The wheels are 4.5" wide, which makes them 5.5" lip to lip. They have 2.25" of backspacing (zero offset). With the spacer, the wheels are moved 1" out and that extra inch is causing the steering to be both sensitive and hard to turn.
I'll get all this sorted out. If you guys can post links to the hub centering rings, I would appreciate it.
I took the car for about a 4 mile drive today, north on 41. That stretch of highway is very nice, smooth concrete. Here is what I observed.
On that smooth highway there was no vibration. The car rode as smooth as any new car. However, whenever there were small variations or bumps, it would cause the steering wheel to jitter left and right.
So it's not the beads or the spacer (at least not in the sense that it is not centered on the hub). The beads are actually doing what they are supposed to. I discussed this issue at length with my buddy John, who knows more about suspension stuff than I do. He is of the opinion that the spacer increased the scrub radius, which has the effect of making the steering very sensitive to any sort of input from the road. A little of that is desirable, because it gives greater road feel. Too much of it and you have the issue that I have.
So the spacer is at fault, but not in the way that we have been discussing. A way to test this would be to install a wheel that will clear the brakes without the spacer, but sadly I don't have access to such wheels, not do I know anyone that does. I'd stick the wheels off my Ranger on it, but it has giant 28" tall tires...LOL
The real issue with the spacer is that is is increasing the scrub radius. This issue is exaggerated by the fact that the wheels are so skinny. The wheels are 4.5" wide, which makes them 5.5" lip to lip. They have 2.25" of backspacing (zero offset). With the spacer, the wheels are moved 1" out and that extra inch is causing the steering to be both sensitive and hard to turn.
Got it. In that case, maybe different brakes is the answer. Sucks to have to throw away the work you've done on the current setup, but if the car isn't any fun to drive, well...
The bolt pattern is 5x4.5" / 5x114.3mm, right? That's an extremely common pattern, there's gotta be someone you know that let you borrow a couple wheels/tires for a test drive!
Originally Posted by Project GatTagO
If you guys can post links to the hub centering rings, I would appreciate it.
Obviously you'll have to get the measurements off the parts to figure out which size you need. FWIW, if they don't have exactly your size, it's pretty easy to "shave" the plastic ones to fit if they sell some that are close. I lost one of mine a while back, and the closest one I could find was 0.5mm or 1mm off for the outside diameter. I just put a sanding wheel on the ol' Dremel and shaved the thing down until it fit.
what about a new rag joint? Maybe check to make sure the steering column isn't bottoming out against the steering box. I know this is sometimes an issue with GM cars, perhaps yours as well.
what about a new rag joint? Maybe check to make sure the steering column isn't bottoming out against the steering box. I know this is sometimes an issue with GM cars, perhaps yours as well.
Dave,
You bring up a good point. With the TCP rack conversion, there is no rag joint. There is a u-joint at the rack, an intermediate DD-shaft, and another u-joint that connects to the DD-shaft of the column. So there is zero isolation between the rack and the steering wheel. I have a fix for this in the works....
Got a few things to update. First, I received some alternative resin that is black and I made another horn center piece. Since the plastic is black, no paint is needed and the details look sharper.
Today I also tackled another annoying issue. Although I had the shifter lever bent, it was still too low and too far forward to be comfortable. I found myself always slouched over and slightly leaning to the right when I drove, and after a little while my back would start to hurt. Since the B&M shifter uses an integral shift lever my only option was to modify it.
On the B&M website they state that the shifter handle is made out of 303 stainless and I measured it to be about 5/8" in diameter. Speedy Metals in Appleton had it in stock so I picked up 18" of it along with some 3/4" tube that has an I.D. of about 5/8".
My original idea was to just section the original stick and splice in a piece close to the base and up towards the shifter handle. But then I decided that straight sections would look awkward, so I decided to try bending the rod. I don't have a press, but I managed to use the jack handle and my engine hoist to put a really nice curve into the rod. After I looked at it some more, it occurred to me that I should just add the long section close to the base of the original shifter handle.
Mocked it up...
Then finished butt weld and a short sleeve for extra strength.
The shifter is much more comfortable now, although the throws got a little longer because the handle is a little taller. In this picture I am sitting nice and upright with my hand resting on the shifter in neutral.
The Big Brown truck delivered some new springs today. I got a new set of 450 pounds springs and Carl at TCP was also kind enough to send me some 500 pound springs that he had banging around under his desk. I went straight for the 500 springs because of how much preload the 400 pound springs needed (but I wanted to have the 450s on hand just in case). I wasn't looking forward to this, but it's a pretty simple process. Unload the suspension, unload the coil spring all the way, take off the two bolts on the control arms, and take off the top mount. Done. I also got the TCP coil spring compressor which made life a lot easier.
The 500 pound springs needed about 1 inch of preload to get the shock length to the 8.75" (measured from the top of the spring to the T-bar). This also put my ride height exactly where it was before. I buttoned everything up and went for a drive.
First of all, the new shifter is awesome. Much better driving experience. The 500 pound springs are keepers. The ride was much improved and the front suspension seemed to be working much better. I have a feeling that the 400 pound springs were bottoming out, which is never a good thing. On the highway, over a smooth road the car drives straight and true. I am convinced that the vibration I was feeling before didn't have anything to do with the wheel balance, but is due to the extra scrub radius that is cause by the spacer. The extra scrub radius gives more feedback through the column and in my case, it's just too much, and it's causing the steering wheel to be jittery when driving over various road irregularities. On a nice smooth concrete highway, it's perfect.
I'll address this more tomorrow, but for now things are much improved.
Also, the Holley Dominator is THE BOMB!!! I like tuning after sundown because I can actually see the laptop. I got it the main fuel table pretty much sorted out and the drivability is excellent. I gotta read up on idle tuning and see if I can make that a little better. It's a little tricky with the 2 big throttle bodies, but I'll get that sorted out.
Got another little project knocked out this afternoon. I had some parts left over and decided to make the intermediate shaft between the rack and the column have a slip joint. This way if I ever need to take that shaft out, I don't have to loosen and pull back the column. Plus, any chassis flex that might put forces from the rack to the column will not be accounted for with the slipper intermediate shaft.
I just took the old shaft out, made some measurements, and figured out the maximum engagement that I can obtain but still have enough slip to remove the shaft.
My first round of cutting resulted in a shaft that was a little long, so rinse, repeat...Done.
In the above picture it looks like the shaft is touching the frame, but there is a good 1/8" gap between the two.
Not sure that I felt any difference, but then again I drove mostly on smooth roads. Might be a different story on a rough highway.
Also, last night while getting gas, I got the best compliment ever. Guy comes over and starts talking and says "This car reminds me of Hot Wheels cars that I used to play with as a kid!"
So I text Andrew a Happy 4th and he says... "You need to come up and visit and see the Cougar" I don't have to be asked twice. So I dart up to see him and admire his handywork on the Cougar. Pictures are one thing but to see it in person does it a whole new level of justice. Let me say that Andrew hit the nail on the head for a throwback 70's barn find drag car. I immediately fell in love with it and a Cougar isn't even my favorite body style!
It was VERY weird riding in a car that appeared like it had just rolled out of a barn, given a dust off with a garden hose, topped off the brake reservoir, installed a new battery and cranked 'er up. My senses kept telling me that it was old but this car was anything but that. Docile when it needs to be but can "GET IT" when need be ! What a blast it was to ride around in - of course everyone who we passed either was wearing a grin, mouth hanging open or shouting and giving a thumbs up. Wherever we went it was obvious that folks loved it. The gold colored, old school drag wheels were perfect on the car. Andrew nailed that perfectly. (It reminded me of Don Schumacher's 'Stardust' funny car from the 70's).
Here's some pics to drool over...
What an awesome view from inside.
And of course the most bitchin' view of all is the reflection in the backside of the bug catcher.
Then he let me drive it... I didn't want to go back to the barn. It was intoxicating.
Remind me to tell you what a great chef Andrew is also. Later on he cooked a steak that was better than anything else that I've ever tasted. It was unreal as well.
It was great hanging out with you Tony! Anytime...
Here is my take on it, with a few more pictures...
So Saturday afternoon I get a text from my buddy Tony, who lives about 90 miles away, wishing me a happy 4th. I ask him what he is doing and he says something about moving some cabinets into the barn. I tell him to **** that, and come up and hang out. I offer him keys to the Cougar and a Prime steak dinner. So he is says " I'll be there in 1 hour 40 minutes..."
So he gets to my house and immediately starts snapping pictures. He sent me a few so I thought I would share them.
Engine shot...
Tony went nuts when I grabbed my bottle of acetone. You see, earlier in the week I measure the ride height at all 4 corners and I grabbed my Sharpie and just wrote the numbers on the fenders. I use the acetone to clean off the Sharpie and he thought I was going to take the paint right off!
We were cruising around and he took this shot in the parking lot of a local auto parts store where I was looking for some Trico Classic wipers.
The wheels spacers need to go. This shot clearly shows that the front track is too wide. I'll get this sorted out soon. It's a problem that can be fixed by throwing money at it...
Here is a view from inside the car. The coolest part is seeing the reflection of the car in the back of the bug catcher.
07-01-2015, 02:04 PM
