Fair

On keeping the stock brakes - we went to a great deal of trouble to keep the stock booster and master cylinder. Being racers at heart, we could not see compromising the beautifully balanced braking system of the BMW by substituting a hydraboost master cylinder and omitting the factory ABS. This changes the front/rear hydraulic ratios and of course disables the Anti-Lock Braking control. If you are just driving the car for fun, or just for drag racing, or just for the car show/bling factor of "wow it has a V8!", then this probably doesn't make much difference to you. Get it out on a road course or autocross track and it matters a whole lot more. All depends on your priorities.



On the custom steering shaft - the stock BMW steering shaft is a monstrous thing, with a sloppy rag joint in the middle, and made for an inline-6 engine that has the exhaust routed on the opposite side of the engine bay. That means: it was not designed to sit next to a header and be subjected to exhaust heat. Rather than take that risk, and compromise the header primary routing to clear the stock shaft assembly, we replaced it. It looks like "some other kits" have taken a page from our playbook (and our vendor, and our development for this assembly) and is offering the same steering shaft now as an option, but their headers are still made to work with the big stock shaft assy. Again, if you are just "driving around for fun" it probably doesn't matter much. If you want the best exhaust flow & most power, a steering shaft that is capable of any use/heat, then our header + shaft assembly option might work better for you. Priorities.



On the transmission crossmember/mount - Our crossmember design is both strong, very low profile, and mounts the transmission rigidly but with a bushing. Gives lots of room for exhaust routing, and after only 5 revisions. We ran our Alpha car for the first year of racing and street use with solid motor and trans mounts, and it worked well enough, but the right bushing material helps to soak up some obvious NVH. Since Vorshlag has designed and built competition oriented engine mount solutions for BMWs for several years, we were already familiar with the various durometer polyurethane and nylons used in these applications, so these choices were easy for us.



If having a street and race proven set-up matters to you, then maybe we have what you need. If not, then maybe there's a cheaper option for you. Some folks have told us that they don't care about the brakes, or making the most power, or having a competition tested set-up - they just want to "drive around fast!" for the least amount of money. And there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. We just aren't going to ever offer the cheapest LS1 swap kit with those types of compromises. Just not what are known for, not what we do.

Cheers,

NewAge

Yes you do have to weld them, down the road we will be coming out with more kit options, were everything will be welded, fully cnc machined engine and transmission mounts, stainless and mildsteel options, we are working on a e46 kit right now and the shop has been crazy but by summer we will have the options out for the e36 (working on pricing) and e46 turbo and no turbo lsx swap kit.

Relocation of abs brackets to clear headers


Stock abs location


Steering shaft


Custom built radiator with overflow for the swap kit

GoBuffs1

Thanks for the quick reply. Definitely better to have them welded since most of us DIY'ers don't have TIG skills for a SS header fab, most guys can do a MIG mild steel header I bet.

Do those braided brake lines run all the way to the wheel wells? Sounds like an easy solution.

NewAge

Yes they run the whole length of the car, with all are installs they get 3an stainless steel brake lines and 6an fuel lines stainless steel, also like I mentioned above we have done one off pieces for swaps just none in large runs, so we are working on pricing

kesslerbmw

I really like what you did with this stuff and I really like the stainless lines on the ABS unit.

I have to rofl at the people selling their product in this thread which is basically about doing the swap without a "kit."

Each of you guys have parts or processes that strong points and weak points, but RCM3 and I, as well as others want to do our own kit and open the BMW-LSX swaps up to more people by providing info on what is the best/ cheapest way to do it.

I do appreciate all the posts, but keep in mind what this thread is about.

Carry on with the "mine is better... because.." conversations I guess.

JTagz

Very good points and I must agree. I'm planning to do this same swap along side RCM3 on my M3. I've wanted to do the LSx e36 well before I even bought the M3 and have watched all of the development of the various kits out there. Those that offer them, have some very nice, well thought out components, but honestly, the prices are outrageous. I know everyone is in business to make money and I don't fault anyone for doing so, and most seem to be freely sharing the knowledge they've acquired during the swap and development. I also think its great to offer an off the shelf swap kit for those that don't have the means or knowledge to take a crack at it themselves. Hopefully with lots of help from those that have done it, we'll be able to come up with a cost effective solution for the shade tree engine swapper (if there is such a thing ).

Steve VanS

iTrader: (1)

Why leave out the ABS when using the HydroBoost? The ABS doesn't "know" if the fluid it receives from the master cyl is vacuum or hydraulic boosted. Our swap just plumbed very short lines from the master cyl to the HydroBoost. BTW, the Ford HydroBoost unit uses Dexron2, which the BMW E30 rack uses ... nice to have some luck there. The Mustang Master cyl wants Dot3 fluid & the BMW stuff Dot4 -- so we'll just use Dot3/4 fluid

rcM3

Well said guys. Thanks for chiming in JTagz and kesslerbmw.

Fair and NewAge: Your constructive input is more than welcome here! We all have a lot to learn from your experiences and hopefully you'll be able to help. We may not be your best customers, but we are certainly in the same community!

Fair

Hey, its all good. We know our kit isn't for everybody, and we're OK with that. This LS1 kit is more of a distraction for Vorshlag than a huge product line, as we are a suspension design and manufacturing operation primarily. But it sure is fun to drive one!

I think I've always been part of the shade tree DIY racing community... just so happens we make and sell stuff to people who aren't necessarily fabricators themselves.

Back in 2002 (before Vorshlag began) I bought an E36 318is (the Alpha car), and within 3 weeks had stuck an LS1 between the frame rails, just to "see if it would fit". I'm pretty sure it was the first one ever mocked up? Regardless, I posted lots of pictures, lots of people saw them, and many folks got the itch after the saw how well it could fit. Many argue it was an obvious LS1 swap candidate, which of course it was. I'm not claiming to have started the E36 LS1 swap trend, ha.

So I toyed with fab work and different designs between extended work deployments off and on for a long time (traveled a lot for 3 straight years), and after many stops and starts, and a few challenges and downright dares from non-believers, the Alpha car was eventually finished and began being raced regularly. In the mean time several folks took the ball and ran with it, and made some kits of their own. The Beta was started in 2007 to fulfill a customer's need and for a way to prove some new design changes, and its led us to even more new design changes, and finally our own kit.

I've talked to many of the people doing one-off swaps and even kits, and have shared information in several areas. I also talked to the man behind the Ford 302 powered "Monster Miatas"/Panache and discussed the joys of making a business around a single V8 swap kit - its challenging to pull it off with such a narrow focus, of course. I talked to Mike @ Nash years ago, he's a nice guy and he did a lot of things differently in his kit, and has some happy customers himself. There have been many people now that have done one-off swaps like this here and there (one-offs are much easier to do than a production-ized kit that can be 100% bolt-in, and fit well), and it looks like NewAge might be trying to start a business around their E36 LS1 swap, too. Its all good.

So, long story short, Vorshlag got around to making a "kit" fairly late in the game (this year) but we have put in a lot of time, design iterations, hundreds of laps of "testing" (ie: racing! ha) and along the way ran into both design "dead ends" and "a-has!". We have worked with a couple of different fabricators, friends, Matteucci from Motor-Force did a bunch of work, and we put in a bunch of hours ourselves. There's nothing we've done that others can't figure out on their own from our ample pictures and from other's, or by trying design iterations of their own. For shade tree fab guys our kit is never going to be "priced right" for them - since we're making ours specifically for dedicated race cars, or people that appreciate fanatic attention to detail in a street car, and many of them are BMW snobs. But "BMW snobs" (and racers) are who we sell to with our main product lines - and we build what they ask us to build. We think our prices are more than fair for the BMW aftermarket, but for the "I built it myself" market its hard to beat "free-ninety-free home built parts".

Somehow, after racing with Mustangs and Camaros and Corvettes for 19 years, I became a BMW nut myself in the last 5, but I never lost the lust for domestic V8 power. I've still managed to sneak in buying a C6 Z51 and an LS1 Formula while being tied into BMWs with our business, but an LS1 BMW this is just too perfect for us. I've been an LS1 fanatic since the 97 Corvette was released, and was just getting tired of the power plants in the BMWs we've been racing for years. We really just wanted to legitimize our excuse for us racing in LS1 BMWs to our traditional BMW customers! We didn't think it would sell quite so briskly, but after the first 10 kits sold and what looks to be a second set of 10 almost all spoken for, and our Vorshlag dealer network buying up kits in multiples (as well as some other highly regarded race teams/shops who I can't brag on yet), we have been of course giving this whole "LS1 kit thing" a pretty serious look. From a dare to a product, that's how some things come about I guess.

We've received no less than 500 e-mails on the E36 LS1 subject, and we try to answer every one. As our suspension design business has ramped up to devour "insane hours" each week, we get a little behind on some of the wackier LS1 questions, but we still try to at least point people to the right places (here on LS1tech and to bimmerforums.com/engine conversion sub-forum) to get the right answers.

Wow, that was quite a ramble! Back to work.

Cheers,

rcM3

Thanks Fair. I admire what you've done with your business. Seems like you guys have a great time while supporting several great niche markets.

Wish us luck with the swaps. Hopefully you won't mind getting a couple extra messages in your inbox when one of us runs into a roadblock along the way.

rao

iTrader: (18)

Ding, Ding, Ding. You must be an "Engineer" , the rest of us are dolts

NewAge

Not a problem, anyway we can help you along the way and help save the headaches. The E36 is a building block for us, many more Bmw models to come and many other outrageous swap kits and custom parts. Ls engines in everything...haha

kesslerbmw

Im really glad you guys didn't take my post defensively.. You know if we get to a point where we don't want to make a certain part or can't we'll probably be coming to you guys for it. Needless to say, you both make great products.

Thaniel

iTrader: (2)

I believe the Pan mod was mostly to Lower the front of the motor. As it sits now the valve cover is beside/under the boster. If the motor were moved back the next thing to hit would be the coil into the boster. There is about a finger width between the coil and the boster at present. The fit between the valve cover and the boster is TIGHT. I am not 100% sure I could get the cover off. I haven't looked or tried though. To tell you how tight it is I cut a chunk of the rim of the rubber cover that surrounds the boster to ensure it wouldn't rub and cause a squeek. The motor can't really be placed much farther back than what I have due to the fact the heater outlets will hit the back of the motor. I don't have precise measurements for the Terry's or Mike's designs but guaging from the shifter hole modifications they all appear very close to what I have FWD back placement. (My location required opening the shifter hole larger on the rear side as most the others do).

I have to mention the ABS since it has been brought up. I moved my ABS inboard and up for clearance. I managed to do that by cutting the mounting brackets off and modifiying them then screwing the brackets back onto the car. I didn't even unhook the high pressure brake lines. However one of the low pressure feed lines I had to modify as it was kinking. If I remember correctly the 96+ cars don't have the low pressure lines from the master cyl resevior to the ABS. That would make it easier. I had concidered looking into swaping a 96+ in just to get a way from the lines but I managed to get it to work. Brakes work just as good as they ever did.

Oh as Fair had said some people just want to go fast. Yah that's me. I don't plan to ever track my car. I'm not sure about for the least money part. I'm not quite sure I fit into that catagory but I definatly don't want to blow money on things that don't add siginficant performace change (for a daily driver). If there is a cheaper way to get something done that is still fully functional I'm all over it.

I think all the prevous swapers have been great especially those that share info. Gotta go.

rcM3

Great info Thaniel! Thanks! I'll update the first post. Hopefully my ABS modifications go as smoothly as yours did.

1BadAction

iTrader: (10)

So what would it take to get an LSx into an E30? can it be done?

rcM3

Absolutely. Steve VanS has already done it and has a great write-up about it.

His thread is linked to in the first post of this thread.

Thaniel

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't wish that on you I mounted it 3 times before getting it right. Each time I had it I thought I was done. However after the last time I wondered why they didn't put it there in the first place. So I think it's in a good spot.

I've attached 2 pics that show where i mounted it. I'm not sure if I posted them or not. Not exactly my best work so I didn't want to show case it. I was getting frustrated with all the mounting changes. In the one picture you can see the chunk of ruber cover cut from the booster. Should give you an idea of where my valve cover is. I believe some remove the rubber but I think it probably helps sound deaden. Since I'm not making a race car I left it on.

How much wiring info do you have?

rcM3

Those pictures will actually really help with repositioning the ABS. Thanks!

I didn't really know what you were talking about regarding the rubber until I saw the pics... and then it still took me a while --- Turns out I don't have that rubber cover on my booster! So that should help at least a little bit (no weird extra sounds from that as far as I know.. I have no idea what the rubber would do...).

Wiring info you ask? None! That's actually what I'm currently most freaked out about. Its definitely what I know the least about and feel the least comfortable with. I don't really know where to start! I've been looking at LS1 wiring/computer threads and there are probably a couple companies that might be able to help to some extent. Speartech is one, but if possible I'd rather save my money.

NewAge

If your not really interested in wiring it, we could do it for you 95% plug and play the rest are labeled connections, ls1 harness is retain in stock bmw wire holding case to appear stock, just thought I would throw that out their if you were interested, but I am willing to help you anyway I can if your up to tackling it yourself.