My sub setup
08-31-2006, 07:41 PM
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My sub setup I just thought I would post up my sub enclosure for anyone interested. It's 2 8" high excursion subs (X-max 12mm one way), ported box tuned to ~38 with an F3 about the same IIRC, 100watts/driver (a little underpowered, but I didn't want to buy a new amp). It really sounds good, and matches level well with the stock monsoon system. When installed as seen in the pictures bass is not boomy and extends fairly low, but not as low as a in hatch back.
Here is some interesting info I learned by experimenting with placement and tuning of this box for anyone looking to design a sub for a vert. There is very little cabin gain to be had by facing the drivers into the cabin, it is nothing like the gain you get in a sedan or hatchback. Also, facing the drivers into the cabin does not help get bass through the top either. There is about 5-6 db of cabin gain to be had by facing the drivers into the trunk. One day, when I have time I plan a second revision of this box which faces the drivers rearward. The box will need to be tuned lower in this configuration also, it gets boomy when faced rearward with the 38hz tuning.
Well, I think thats more info than anyone probibly wanted, so on with the pics.
Here is some interesting info I learned by experimenting with placement and tuning of this box for anyone looking to design a sub for a vert. There is very little cabin gain to be had by facing the drivers into the cabin, it is nothing like the gain you get in a sedan or hatchback. Also, facing the drivers into the cabin does not help get bass through the top either. There is about 5-6 db of cabin gain to be had by facing the drivers into the trunk. One day, when I have time I plan a second revision of this box which faces the drivers rearward. The box will need to be tuned lower in this configuration also, it gets boomy when faced rearward with the 38hz tuning.
Well, I think thats more info than anyone probibly wanted, so on with the pics.
09-01-2006, 02:45 PM
#4
Originally Posted by TA guy
Here is some interesting info I learned by experimenting with placement and tuning of this box for anyone looking to design a sub for a vert. There is very little cabin gain to be had by facing the drivers into the cabin, it is nothing like the gain you get in a sedan or hatchback. Also, facing the drivers into the cabin does not help get bass through the top either. There is about 5-6 db of cabin gain to be had by facing the drivers into the trunk. One day, when I have time I plan a second revision of this box which faces the drivers rearward. The box will need to be tuned lower in this configuration also, it gets boomy when faced rearward with the 38hz tuning.
Great minds think alike (check the link in my sig). Your box doesn't appear to be ported. Mine's ported towards the passenger compartment to "funnel" the bass wave to where you can hear/feel it. It also fits snugly in the opening to create sort of an "infinite baffle" around the trunk volume (as long as the deck lid is closed).
Last edited by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag; 09-01-2006 at 03:01 PM.
09-01-2006, 04:34 PM
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Thank you, your box did inspire mine to some degree. I saw your design a long time ago and looked into that approach in detail before deciding against it for a number of reasons. I will go into the details if you care to know why.
Here you can see the ports, dual 2" with 3/4" flared ends. There is plenty of room on the side on the enclosure for the ports to breathe when installed in the car.
Here you can see the ports, dual 2" with 3/4" flared ends. There is plenty of room on the side on the enclosure for the ports to breathe when installed in the car.
09-02-2006, 11:14 AM
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Against my better judgement, I am going to clarify something as I think JohnnyB using my post (I have seen him do it in other posts too) to promote sales of his design. I really don't think it is a very good design, although I admit I haven't heard it (if anyone in the ST. Louis metro has one I would love to give it a listen), I have chatted with others who have used it and reviews are very mixed. I do think (from pics I have seen) that he is a good craftsman, and his box is better than having nothing, I just don't want to be used (even indirectly) to promote a product I don't believe in.
The following is based on assumptions I make about your design from pictures, your web page, the results others have had with your box, and the physical principles of speaker design. The 5-6db of cabin gain from firing the drivers into the trunk will not be present in your design JohnnyB because you seal the trunk off from the cabin, creating an infinite baffle, actually a very odd bandpass situation due to your "funnel ports". Your "Funnel Ports"; a concept which has no standing, nor have I even seen reference to in the audio community; are nothing more than a standard port which tunes your box to a fairly high frequency. This creates a large midbass hump in the frequency responce and the drivers unload at a relatively high frequency at only moderate power levels. This provides a lot of midbass punch (~ 110 - 70hz) but a very limited low end. Again, this is better than nothing, but not what a sub should be.
I think the biggest problem with your design is that you have no idea how different drivers are going to behave in your box, but advise your buyers to use any sub that fits. Proper enclosure design, especially for subs, is tied directly to the specific driver you are using. Sealed boxes can be forgiving, but ported boxes aren't, and a bandpass (like yours) is even more sensitive.
The following is based on assumptions I make about your design from pictures, your web page, the results others have had with your box, and the physical principles of speaker design. The 5-6db of cabin gain from firing the drivers into the trunk will not be present in your design JohnnyB because you seal the trunk off from the cabin, creating an infinite baffle, actually a very odd bandpass situation due to your "funnel ports". Your "Funnel Ports"; a concept which has no standing, nor have I even seen reference to in the audio community; are nothing more than a standard port which tunes your box to a fairly high frequency. This creates a large midbass hump in the frequency responce and the drivers unload at a relatively high frequency at only moderate power levels. This provides a lot of midbass punch (~ 110 - 70hz) but a very limited low end. Again, this is better than nothing, but not what a sub should be.
I think the biggest problem with your design is that you have no idea how different drivers are going to behave in your box, but advise your buyers to use any sub that fits. Proper enclosure design, especially for subs, is tied directly to the specific driver you are using. Sealed boxes can be forgiving, but ported boxes aren't, and a bandpass (like yours) is even more sensitive.
Last edited by TA guy; 09-02-2006 at 04:02 PM.
09-04-2006, 10:27 PM
#7
I have one of JB's boxes and would like to chime in. I am in no way affiliated with him, just bought one of his boxes. I've also posted many things discussing the merits/bad points of the box.
First of, the guy isn't in it for the money. I'm sure he makes some money on each box, but it is by no means a commerial operation and he isn't making a killing on each box he sells. I would say if you figure labor at $30-40 an hour, he is probably breaking even. It is my honest opinion that he is just a hobbyist that is trying to support the community doing something he enjoys doing. I think that is great.
Having said that, his box has things about it that are both flaws and strengths. I worked on my box quite a lot and have tried a lot of different things.
These are my findings, but please realize they are just my opinions and everyone's is different. I HIGHLY prioritize sound with the top down. My car is a 2nd car used only in good weather.
1.) Any wedge box like this can't really be big enough for 4 drivers. JB will build up a box to hold 2 drivers, and I think this is a much better solution, as you've found.
2.) Tuning is a bit of a mixed bag. I don't think the top and the environment/driver size is very condusive to true subwoofer functions (~40 tuning let's say). So, almost by accident, the 80-100Hz tuning in a lot of ways gives you the best "bang for the buck" in terms of being punchy and providing some bass extension with the top down. At least in my application, the 8" drivers with about 100 watts rms each isn't enough to get good low end (40Hz) punch. In other words rock music and some rap sounds very good, but "cruising" pure bass tracks don't work well at all. I'm ok with this.
3.) Driver selection is very important, more so than usual. You need a good small enclosure driver with high sensitivity. 8" drivers vary wildly in sensitivity, some of them (like mine, unfortunately) are just terrible. If you want the box to really hit at all I'd get into 90db plus drivers and feed them a good 200rms each.
4.) Because of the box tuning and huge sound difference top up /down, you're going to want:
- A remote amp level control or subwoofer RCA level controls in the head unit
- An amp with a subsonic filter (to cut-off below 40 or 80 or whereever you tune to)
It is my general opinion that if you want a convertible to truly "hit", then you are staring down either the battle ax approach with ridiculous subs and amp levels taking up your whole trunk (which will rattle everything and sound ghetto) - or dealing with an in-cabin solution be it glass in the front doors or wells / or some sort of back seat solution.
The only other thing I can think of would be some sort of hardware modification that would prevent the top from sitting so tightly on the rear deck. I woud love to see someone come up with something like that - which would leave a 1-2" gap between the top and the deck.
Wedge solutions like ours need to be paired to realistic expectations.
Having said all of that, I really like the looks of your enclosure and the enthusiasm you have tied to it. I would like to have a more efficient solution than what I am using right now, and if you come up with a good 2 driver solution I'd love to hear about it. Being that I have 4 8" subs and 400rms to work with, my setup is not quite where it should be, and that bugs me.
First of, the guy isn't in it for the money. I'm sure he makes some money on each box, but it is by no means a commerial operation and he isn't making a killing on each box he sells. I would say if you figure labor at $30-40 an hour, he is probably breaking even. It is my honest opinion that he is just a hobbyist that is trying to support the community doing something he enjoys doing. I think that is great.
Having said that, his box has things about it that are both flaws and strengths. I worked on my box quite a lot and have tried a lot of different things.
These are my findings, but please realize they are just my opinions and everyone's is different. I HIGHLY prioritize sound with the top down. My car is a 2nd car used only in good weather.
1.) Any wedge box like this can't really be big enough for 4 drivers. JB will build up a box to hold 2 drivers, and I think this is a much better solution, as you've found.
2.) Tuning is a bit of a mixed bag. I don't think the top and the environment/driver size is very condusive to true subwoofer functions (~40 tuning let's say). So, almost by accident, the 80-100Hz tuning in a lot of ways gives you the best "bang for the buck" in terms of being punchy and providing some bass extension with the top down. At least in my application, the 8" drivers with about 100 watts rms each isn't enough to get good low end (40Hz) punch. In other words rock music and some rap sounds very good, but "cruising" pure bass tracks don't work well at all. I'm ok with this.
3.) Driver selection is very important, more so than usual. You need a good small enclosure driver with high sensitivity. 8" drivers vary wildly in sensitivity, some of them (like mine, unfortunately) are just terrible. If you want the box to really hit at all I'd get into 90db plus drivers and feed them a good 200rms each.
4.) Because of the box tuning and huge sound difference top up /down, you're going to want:
- A remote amp level control or subwoofer RCA level controls in the head unit
- An amp with a subsonic filter (to cut-off below 40 or 80 or whereever you tune to)
It is my general opinion that if you want a convertible to truly "hit", then you are staring down either the battle ax approach with ridiculous subs and amp levels taking up your whole trunk (which will rattle everything and sound ghetto) - or dealing with an in-cabin solution be it glass in the front doors or wells / or some sort of back seat solution.
The only other thing I can think of would be some sort of hardware modification that would prevent the top from sitting so tightly on the rear deck. I woud love to see someone come up with something like that - which would leave a 1-2" gap between the top and the deck.
Wedge solutions like ours need to be paired to realistic expectations.
Having said all of that, I really like the looks of your enclosure and the enthusiasm you have tied to it. I would like to have a more efficient solution than what I am using right now, and if you come up with a good 2 driver solution I'd love to hear about it. Being that I have 4 8" subs and 400rms to work with, my setup is not quite where it should be, and that bugs me.
Last edited by todddchi; 09-04-2006 at 10:36 PM.
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09-04-2006, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by todddchi
4.) Because of the box tuning and huge sound difference top up /down, you're going to want:
- A remote amp level control or subwoofer RCA level controls in the head unit
- An amp with a subsonic filter (to cut-off below 40 or 80 or whereever you tune to)
- A remote amp level control or subwoofer RCA level controls in the head unit
- An amp with a subsonic filter (to cut-off below 40 or 80 or whereever you tune to)
The four 6" JL drivers sound great and give me exactly what I was looking to gain in Johnny's box. They stopped making them years ago because nobody bought them in the states. 6" subs just arent sexy.. go figure
His box doesnt steal any usable space, is inexpensive for a custom box, and provides acceptable bass. Yep, Johnny always posts up when this forum has a convertible/subwoofer thread. So what?old post with info and pics
09-05-2006, 05:33 AM
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O.K. this is my first post on this site. I've been on ls1.com for over 2 years now. I'm not all that much into making post, just like to read. I have a 98 z28 vert and i bought a box, sony amp, and 12" sub form ( i hate to say ) walmart. The first thing i noticed is you can't hear your sub with the top down. So i just added a 5 feet of speaker wire and put the sub in the back seat. when i need to use the back seat i just put it back in the trunk. Simple and cheap. just my .02
09-05-2006, 12:29 PM
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After thinking about it a little, I came down a little too hard on johnny's design. He is doing exactly what most mass market (meaning stuff you can go buy in the store, non custom) subs do when you can't actually provide the low end (due to size, cost, etc) You boost the midbass. By doing this there is at least a percieved bass responce and lots of punch. And his design does provide a good bit of midbass boost due to the bandpass approach.
That said, he is selling a product for a profit (if you think $30-$40 an hour, probibly tax free, is not worthwhile, I envy you) and actively markets it through these forums. He is running a buissness, and I treated his product as such. However, I should have contacted him in private and offered my help to improve his design rather than just critising in public because, while he is running a small buissness, I am sure he has our best interests at heart.
I do not dobut Johnny's honesty or craftsmanship. I also think it is great that he is attempting to support a small niche market forgotten by pretty much everybody. My critique (while more critical than it should have been, I admit) was written out of my passion for these cars. In fact, I would like to help him improve his product, weather by helping with a better design (I am not suggesting mine is the best solution BTW, I admit it needs a second revision), or just helping to generate a list of appropriate drivers.
So Johnny, if your interested in help form an hot-headed, but well intentioned stranger, let me know.
PS to SSpeedracer, you'll be happy to know there are a number of 6.5" subs on the market again with some pretty impressive specs.
That said, he is selling a product for a profit (if you think $30-$40 an hour, probibly tax free, is not worthwhile, I envy you) and actively markets it through these forums. He is running a buissness, and I treated his product as such. However, I should have contacted him in private and offered my help to improve his design rather than just critising in public because, while he is running a small buissness, I am sure he has our best interests at heart.
I do not dobut Johnny's honesty or craftsmanship. I also think it is great that he is attempting to support a small niche market forgotten by pretty much everybody. My critique (while more critical than it should have been, I admit) was written out of my passion for these cars. In fact, I would like to help him improve his product, weather by helping with a better design (I am not suggesting mine is the best solution BTW, I admit it needs a second revision), or just helping to generate a list of appropriate drivers.
So Johnny, if your interested in help form an hot-headed, but well intentioned stranger, let me know.
PS to SSpeedracer, you'll be happy to know there are a number of 6.5" subs on the market again with some pretty impressive specs.
09-13-2006, 03:30 PM
#13
Woah! I sure didn't intend to rain on anyone's parade here. Looking back on my post I must admit that it may have come off as a back-handed compliment, but that is by no means how it was intended. It appears TA guy has spent alot of time planning out his design which I think is great. And the fact my box gave him some inspiration is WAY flattering. I am also open to critique of my design as that indicates people are poking and prodding it to find it's weaknesses which could be used to improve the product. But please allow me to lay my cards on the table so that there is no mis-understanding of where I'm coming from.
todddchi described me & my box pretty accurately. My box isn't the "perfect" solution, nor will it win any SPL or SQ competitions. However for the majority of people, it is a big leap in the right direction compared to the stock 'vert sound systems. And I truly wish I was netting $30-40/hr building these things, but the fact is after material costs I clear ~$170/box and it takes me 16-18 hours to build a box. I've only built 16 boxes since I started in '99. Needless to say I've kept my day job. My wife has been insisting that I increase my price to offset the time it "steals" from me spending with my family, but I know that the price must stay competitive with other "market offerings". If I was really trying to make this a "buisness" large enough to feed my family, I'd have designed a box for Mustangs too and would be "marketing" them much more aggressively via other channels than I have. But you won't catch me dead in a Mustang, nor would any of my acquantences who'd allow me use of their car to develop such a box. The primary reason I still even build these is to offer others w/ 4th-gen f-bod 'verts a practical option for improving the sound system, which I know are not abundant (nearly non-existant back in '99).
WRT my box design, I'll withold a lengthy discussion on my thought process during it's development, which would reveal where compromises were made in order to make it somewhat "generic". I also have a somewhat unorthodox approach / philosophy to sub design. I could write volumes on it, but I don't have the time at the moment and this is probably not the thread to do so.
TA guy, I wish I still had the passion you obviously have for our 'verts and the sound system. To be honest, my passion hasn't really reduced since I first purchased my car in '98, but it has been "diluted" by...... life in general (subsequent vehicle purchases, wife, kids, my '68 Cutlass, home improvements, work etc). If I still had the time and energy to put forth on 'vert sub designs in general, or refining my design specifically, I'd definately could use some of your help, and I sincerely appreciate your offer.
todddchi described me & my box pretty accurately. My box isn't the "perfect" solution, nor will it win any SPL or SQ competitions. However for the majority of people, it is a big leap in the right direction compared to the stock 'vert sound systems. And I truly wish I was netting $30-40/hr building these things, but the fact is after material costs I clear ~$170/box and it takes me 16-18 hours to build a box. I've only built 16 boxes since I started in '99. Needless to say I've kept my day job. My wife has been insisting that I increase my price to offset the time it "steals" from me spending with my family, but I know that the price must stay competitive with other "market offerings". If I was really trying to make this a "buisness" large enough to feed my family, I'd have designed a box for Mustangs too and would be "marketing" them much more aggressively via other channels than I have. But you won't catch me dead in a Mustang, nor would any of my acquantences who'd allow me use of their car to develop such a box. The primary reason I still even build these is to offer others w/ 4th-gen f-bod 'verts a practical option for improving the sound system, which I know are not abundant (nearly non-existant back in '99).
WRT my box design, I'll withold a lengthy discussion on my thought process during it's development, which would reveal where compromises were made in order to make it somewhat "generic". I also have a somewhat unorthodox approach / philosophy to sub design. I could write volumes on it, but I don't have the time at the moment and this is probably not the thread to do so.
TA guy, I wish I still had the passion you obviously have for our 'verts and the sound system. To be honest, my passion hasn't really reduced since I first purchased my car in '98, but it has been "diluted" by...... life in general (subsequent vehicle purchases, wife, kids, my '68 Cutlass, home improvements, work etc). If I still had the time and energy to put forth on 'vert sub designs in general, or refining my design specifically, I'd definately could use some of your help, and I sincerely appreciate your offer.
Last edited by JohnnyBs98WS6Rag; 09-13-2006 at 03:45 PM.
09-18-2006, 03:49 PM
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Hey there
Damm I have been on ls1tech some time now and first today saw the vert. forum... I know I know scandalous....
ANYWAY..... I have a real good beast of a 12'' I wanna use in my camaro vert. I would hope maybe some of you could give me some good idea on where to find some I can either buy or build myself...
Hope to hear from you guys...
Damm I have been on ls1tech some time now and first today saw the vert. forum... I know I know scandalous....
ANYWAY..... I have a real good beast of a 12'' I wanna use in my camaro vert. I would hope maybe some of you could give me some good idea on where to find some I can either buy or build myself...
Hope to hear from you guys...
09-18-2006, 04:24 PM
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Are you saying you have a 12" and need help with where to buy or how to build a box for it? Subthump still sells passenger side stealth boxes I think, and they may have other options too, or you can design something like quiet_storm98 did. If you need help designing a box tell us what kind of sub you have (make and model). If you want more people to see this you may want ot start a new thread too.
Also, in case anyone cares, me and Johnny made up and are sharing some ideas outside of the forums.
Also, in case anyone cares, me and Johnny made up and are sharing some ideas outside of the forums.
09-18-2006, 05:36 PM
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Hey
I really just want to see if I could buy a sub box. If I can i would prefer one that can be in the trunk... the idea I saw on the pics with it sitting almost where the top goes is very nice... i dont know if a 12'' is to big for that.
Anyway, if I can buy on for that and it is not like i have to sell my soul I will buy it, and if not well, I would be very happy if you guys could help.
Brand: Impulse (only being sold in europe I think, brought it with me)
Model: MW-1012
Stats.Power: 1000 W
Resistance: 4 Ohm
Magnet (oz): 92 oz
RDC: 3.2
Q-Factor QMS: 6.1
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Q-Factor QTS: 0.31
Frequency band: 2 Hz - 1500 Hz
Frequence of resonance : 29 Hz
Membrane: papīra
Coil diam. (mm): 75
SD (SqCM): 0.0491
Minimal depth (mm): 189
Hope you guys can give me some advise
I really just want to see if I could buy a sub box. If I can i would prefer one that can be in the trunk... the idea I saw on the pics with it sitting almost where the top goes is very nice... i dont know if a 12'' is to big for that.
Anyway, if I can buy on for that and it is not like i have to sell my soul I will buy it, and if not well, I would be very happy if you guys could help.
Brand: Impulse (only being sold in europe I think, brought it with me)
Model: MW-1012
Stats.Power: 1000 W
Resistance: 4 Ohm
Magnet (oz): 92 oz
RDC: 3.2
Q-Factor QMS: 6.1
Sensitivity: 87 dB
Q-Factor QTS: 0.31
Frequency band: 2 Hz - 1500 Hz
Frequence of resonance : 29 Hz
Membrane: papīra
Coil diam. (mm): 75
SD (SqCM): 0.0491
Minimal depth (mm): 189
Hope you guys can give me some advise
Originally Posted by TA guy
Are you saying you have a 12" and need help with where to buy or how to build a box for it? Subthump still sells passenger side stealth boxes I think, and they may have other options too, or you can design something like quiet_storm98 did. If you need help designing a box tell us what kind of sub you have (make and model). If you want more people to see this you may want ot start a new thread too.
Also, in case anyone cares, me and Johnny made up and are sharing some ideas outside of the forums.
Also, in case anyone cares, me and Johnny made up and are sharing some ideas outside of the forums.
09-19-2006, 08:03 AM
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You very well may need to sell your soul to get a 12" to fit on the ledge over the trunk. At the very least you will not find a commercial option.
Subthump offers a passenger side stealth box for a 10", but even if you could squeeze your 12" in, it would most likely be too small(I didn't actually check, just a guess). If you contact them they may be able to help you out with something though.
Also, double check your driver parameters, your SD is either .0491 SqM or it has the smallest SD of amy 12" in the world. Also you forgot the VAS and Xmax.
Subthump offers a passenger side stealth box for a 10", but even if you could squeeze your 12" in, it would most likely be too small(I didn't actually check, just a guess). If you contact them they may be able to help you out with something though.
Also, double check your driver parameters, your SD is either .0491 SqM or it has the smallest SD of amy 12" in the world. Also you forgot the VAS and Xmax.
09-19-2006, 08:15 AM
#20
There aren't going to be commercial options to put a 12" in a vert other then a generic enclosure to sit in your trunk. A custom fabricator could come up with something but it would cost you an arm and a leg.
If you are ok with only really gaining benefit from the sub with the top up, you can toss it in the trunk in a normal box and be perfectly happy.
If its top down bass you want then you should probably scrap that 12" idea and start looking into other options.
If you are ok with only really gaining benefit from the sub with the top up, you can toss it in the trunk in a normal box and be perfectly happy.
If its top down bass you want then you should probably scrap that 12" idea and start looking into other options.