Jantzer98SS

iTrader: (54)

First of all NICE runs RUQWIKR 10.68 is impressive! That really has me thinking about what everybody is using for a STOCK INTERNAL motor.

So most interpret the rules from my research as totally untouched below the valvecovers etc with any bolt-ons legal. Or is there some exceptions as long as it's stock heads, cam, etc?

Clarification #1.
What if you buy a shortblock without heads? If you put stock heads on it is it now NOT stock internal? Or if you buy one with a cam in it and change it back to stock cam etc. is that now stock internal again? Just curious how people see this.

Clarification #2.
If you buy a stock crate motor from GM I assume that would be stock or does it need to be production in the car LS1?

Clarification #3.
How about rod bolts for the 98 guys?

Clarification #4.
Is a fresh hone and re-ring still stock?

This is opening up a can of worms hopefully.

And one last questions for ***** and giggles. Is the 98-00 shortblock faster or slower than a 01-02? The 98-00 with the bigger cam and 01-02 with better heads.

jetlag

iTrader: (32)

Stock parts are stock parts...as long as it's not an LS6 cam swap into a LS1..or LS1 Hot cam kit...

But I think if most of us here were buying a short block w/ no heads...it definitely wouldn't have stockers put on it

IMO, if it is something like this for maintenance purposes..it's stock. It's not really a power advantage, you just had to freshen up a little bit.

Matt D

iTrader: (49)

Clarification #1.
No. It has to be bone stock, never been touched. Including the valvetrain.

Clarification #2.
That is fine. Magnus, Project_SS, and RUQWIKR all did that. (or took it out of another donar car)

Clarification #3.
No. Absolutley no internal mods. Hence STOCK internals.

Clarification #4.
No. Fresh rings are not stock. See respones to clarification #3.

RUQWIKR

iTrader: (11)

While we are all internet racing, per se, I would agree in principal to all Matt outlined. Problem with new rings is are the bores the exact surface finish as before, same friction rings, etc.? Hard to "police" that one.

In the end, we are just having fun. No one is getting torn down some of us who have raced before, for example, in Stock Eliminator for NHRA or IHRA, or other events. We are not getting prize money, and so, on.

I don't particularly care if the engine came out of the exact car, or came from a proper year Vette, GTO, or other, as long as it has the cam and heads it came with and has the same exact combo that came in an F-car. The earlier LS1's have a better cam, but the later ones have a bit better heads with the 241's...probably equal out more or less. Some of the cars on the list started out as LT1's or V6 cars...who cares, as we are just doing this to enjoy our hobby.

I think, in good air, a very light car, and very well prepared can go 10.40's, yes, 10.40's, at 125 or 126. I only went back SI for a while as I had a VERY expensive day at the track on 2/9 with a rod bolt failure in my 427. If I was changing things again for SI, I would put 4.88's with a very tight converter (with 30" tires like I run) with a transbrake if you didn't have one. This way, you could leave hard without a converter needing to be flashed so hard, but not have any appreciable converter slippage up top where the stock engine runs out of breath. You also don't have to worry about pushing through the lights trying to maximize it on the footbrake...if you have to stay w/o a transbrake, then, I'd go with a dual-caliper rear set up like a lot of Stock Eliminator cars do since they are not allowed transbrakes.



I would also run a sheetmetal intake with a speed density tune, though, the intake cost would be high for not a lot of gain over a FAST 90/90 or 92/92 with the stock motor. I would also lean the heck out of it and maximize spark with some good gas with a good dyno tune. Furthermore, I'd lighten the car up some more.

The ASA LS1's picked up over 15hp changing to a fairly simple dry sump system. While not technically allowed in "STOCK INTERNALS", it would be interesting for someone to try that on a stock motor to see for themselves. Good luck to all and keep it safe. Dave

DOUBT IT

iTrader: (13)

I agree with the strictest rules.

...and that's why my car has never even had the valve-covers removed. Only mod I've done to the engine itself was the LS6 intake swap. 83,500 miles on the stock longblock as delivered by GM.

I like to keep it stock internal for now because it's a load easier on drivetrain parts.

Asmodeus

why is freshening the motor not allowed? rings are wear parts.. are you not allowed to change your brakes either? or freshen the clutches in the trans? I don't get that one..

RUQWIKR

iTrader: (11)

There's a difference between a non-overbore, stock replacement piston, stock ringpack freshening vs. what you could do or HAVE to do (like overbore) once opened up, whether intentionally trying to pick up power or just the by-product.

Any way we look at it, we are all living a cool dream as how many cars with just 346 cubes can run the numbers that we can, whether stock internals, cam only, head cam, stock displacement power adder or whatever! Take care. Dave

Jantzer98SS

iTrader: (54)

I don't think honing or re-ring should be allowed. That would be an unfair advantage if you ask me. It can't be stock internal if you altered the way it came from the factory. I guess I lean toward the strict side.

There was a lot of good information in your first post RUQWIKR. Why would you run a tighter converter so you have lower shift extension and keep it in the powerband better? And what kind of stall do you think? Looks like to me the ATI 5500 has had the best results.

RUQWIKR

iTrader: (11)

My comments regarding gearing and converter are meant towards a restrictive "class" like Stock Internals. Because the stock engine runs out of breath quickly above, say 5800-6000 rpm or so, I'd rather use the steep rear gear to get out of the hole. Plus, the gear spacing of a T400 or T350 or T200 (my preference for an all-out application), is affected less by the rpm drop from 1-2 than in a 4L60/65/70e or 700R4.

You can still have a very high (4000-4600 rpm) converter that is quite "tight" if designed well. Obviously, if you have the heads / cam / valvetrain to spin the snot out of it, a converter that has more slippage will not hurt, and will flash quicker off the line if designed well, especially off a transbrake. In that case, you may not need nor be able to gear it so steep.

A note: Most Stock Eliminator racers use a T350 with an LS1 unless they have the budget for a lightened T200 (C version, 3-speed, NOT 4-speed version). Scott McClay makes what is considered the best T200 out there, but cost can be north of $5K without converter. Before flaming, remember, SE racer's do lots of things for a hundreth here and there due to the qualifying protocol and racing protocol if you run another car within your class - that makes a head's up, no breakout race vs. a bracket race...car type does not have to be the same, but class-to-class like A/SA vs. A/SA.

I chose a lightened T400 to have a rotating weight below a normal race T350 but with bettery (typical) durability of a lightened T200 or T350. Hope this helps. Take care. Dave

Matt D

iTrader: (49)

It's simple. Rings are an INTERNAL part in the motor. If you replace the rings, then you don't have stock INTERNALS any more.

Matt D

iTrader: (49)

My stock internal motor made peak power a little over 6100 rpms. We have the shifts set at 6450, and are seeing between 6300-6450 realistically. This is in a built 4l60e (no transbrake...yet) and a Yank PT4400 that is flashing to 4800-5000. Rear end is a 3.73/Auburn posi 10 bolt. I am debating on going to a Jericho 4 speed and fab 9" with a 4.56 and 29" tire to see how much I will drop in E.T. No one has done that with a banger, so I would like to try it.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

I don't see a problem changing valve springs, and honestly who knows who has upgraded valve springs. A person could slap on some Z06 springs or some 918's and nobody would know, and most wouldn't care. Could buzz the engine a little higher and lot more safely. I'm just saying hearing that someone is flogging stock valve springs with a 100K engine bothers me. I'd rather see you guys not lose engines.

ADMIN

Magnus

iTrader: (4)

To me, stock internals means an LS1 engine that came from GM and the valve covers have never been removed.

If you take a used shortblock and put on stock heads, it gets iffy..

I'm ok with rod bolts on 98-99's.. that won't give you extra power and will help keep you safer like the 00+ guys already have. No point in swapping out your motor with an 00+ just to get rod bolts that do not improve your HP.

There is no body that tears down our motors to see if they are really stock internals.. and then, if they did that.. after rebuild I wouldn't consider it stock internals anymore.. new gaskets, etc... so its really up to you to be honest.

My setup was a junk yard motor, LS1, valve covers never removed... with rod bolts. I had every other bolt on possible though.

I think the stock internals record is a goal for those to shoot for who don't want to tear into the motor. Even though the bolt-ons can get quite costly, it still makes it easier to compete than those who would re-hone, tighten rings, etc... changing rings, springs, etc.. could get expensive to compete against.

The stock internal path is also a great path into a fast heads/cam car too.. If you build your car to be fast SI, then adding heads/cam is going to make it much faster. I went form 10.9 SI to 9.9 H/C.

Good luck!

Bryan @ Speed Inc.

iTrader: (19)

i agree with most of the things mentioned above - i just don't understand why it's so vital to have never removed the valve covers...

if you have a 98 shortblock, and put STOCK 241 heads on it with STOCK head gaskets, then what's the difference?
i agree with the hone/ring deal, i can atleast see where rod bolts might be controversial, but i don't understand the whole "valve covers never removed" deal.

springs as well - if you replace 100k mile springs with factory replacements, that's stock.

anyhow... carry on.

RUQWIKR

iTrader: (11)

That scenario would be fine in my book, but someone may say what about a 98-00 LS1 cam in a 241 head motor? Until people would all race same-day, same track and do a teardown, it's all internet racing anyways. Take care. Dave

Asmodeus

You do if you replace them with stock rings??

Matt D

iTrader: (49)

Stock from the factory. I didn't know I had to spell it out.

The motor can not be torn apart. It must be sealed from the factory. Is that better?

Jantzer98SS

iTrader: (54)

It's like there isn't a right answer. It's a made up class on here and you would need a majority vote on these things from a number of people to actuallly make the rule THE RULES. I say we make a list of these controversial things and vote on it. That would settle it.

GIZMO

iTrader: (8)

I purchased the motor that is in Dave's car about a year ago. I wanted a motor that had low miles so that I could go after the "Stock Internals Record" with it. If you are after any of the records on here it is only fair to run by the rules that all previous contenders used. If you start accepting even the slightest deviations the records will be worth nothing. As it turns out Dave reset the record and I have pride of ownership. Dave has made the point that I wanted to make by running the number that he did. In my book that is a perfect ending.

Daren

Jantzer98SS

iTrader: (54)

I completely agree with most of that. But as the devil's advocate... You said if you start accepting even the slightest deviations the records will be worth nothing. But what are we deviating from? Is there a list of agreed upon rules already? If not there needs to be otherwise there can't be deviations. Basically everbody needs a clear understanding what is and what is not accepted. That will have to come from a majority vote or whatever.

I'm with you though, if 99% of these guys ran stock shortblocks completely untouched below the valvecovers, then lets stick with that. If some of the records had mistmatched year heads/cam or fresh rings, then they either need taken off or the rules changed.

So maybe I will start a poll with the most common issues and maybe make a sticky somewhere so the rules are atleast posted!?