Bob C,

Appreciate your input. Good to see ya over here. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

I really hate to use the word brackets in conjunciton with this index system. Please, lets just call it indexing or heads-up index racing. Bracket racing has too many bad connotations. Afterall, this is for the most part heads up racing. And unlike bracket racing, NO LIFTING ALLOWED!

This is all about building/tuning your car and honing your driving skills to run the SAME number as everyone in your index without sand-bagging. Spectators don't want to see two people outbrake each other at the finish line for the win.

We want this to be a class where many of our board members want to compete, not a class for professional racers. Because of this, a teardown inspection should be COMPLETELY OUT of the question. If we do teardowns, the average board member won't race, only professionals might and then maybe not even them if the money is not good enough, which it won't be.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

I guess for the teardown part if any other racer thinks something is illegal than that person needs to file a complaint with Chris or John than post up some money. If the teardown finds that part that's in question the complainer gets his money back and we all get to ridacule the person that got caught.


Now NFRA would have to have a supply of heads bolts and the like which if nothing is found the throw away parts get replaced and the money from the complainer goes to re-supply whats taken out and a little to the owner for his time. You might not get the daily drivers but it wouldn't discourage everybody from entering the class.

Either way I can't enter this class now, I went into the engine now I have other goals in mind <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

<img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">

 

Say Bob, if the money you have to put up to protest is very high, people won't protest at all since the win money won't be very much. That will let cheaters walk away unprotested with the win.

Not only that, most amateur entrants (no trailor, REAL street car) will not want to have to deal with the hassle of tearing down and re-assembling their engine on a Sunday nite in the parking lot before they can drive back home, and HOPE to God that their are no leaks, problems, etc.. on the way home. Not MY idea of a fun weekend.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

Oh, and another thing. On safety rules and equipment for this class, I think we should use IHRA, not NHRA rules. That way, a roll cage won't be required until 11.49, instead of 11.99. Too many people in the stands who won't race this class if roll bars are required for 11.99 and quicker, me included.

Remember, this is intended for the average Joe and his street car. Not the professional racer and his trailored race car that don't mind roll bars and engine teardowns.

The professional racer types can race the 'outlaw' bolt-on 11.49 and quicker class. For that class only, maybe we can allow them to not have working A/C, power steering, or ABS. They can have all the teardowns they want. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

You can call it any name you want, and if it will make you feel better, I'll not call it bracket racing. And dude...no offense...but don't kid yourself. People WILL lift if they need to, and it is very easy to disguise (among other things, a switch to disable the brake lights).

BTW...I'm not a professional, and I've been through a teardown...comes with the territory. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Also, in a teardown, the person being torn down is responsible for all the parts and tools...including gaskets, bolts, whatever. Iffin you want some info on how a protest work, let me know and I'll post it. Been there, done that. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

 

Oh...one other thing....NHRA vs IHRA will depend solely upon the track. If its an IHRA track - those rules will be in effect, and visa-versa.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Bob Cosby:
<strong>Oh...one other thing....NHRA vs IHRA will depend solely upon the track. If its an IHRA track - those rules will be in effect, and visa-versa.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If we host it at Steele, it will be NO RULES!! HA HA HA <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> Fat chance of that happening. <img src="images/icons/frown.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by Bob Cosby:
<strong>You can call it any name you want, and if it will make you feel better, I'll not call it bracket racing. And dude...no offense...but don't kid yourself. People WILL lift if they need to, and it is very easy to disguise (among other things, a switch to disable the brake lights).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bob, I realize that you can disable your brake lights. That's what the minimum trap speed rules are for, to catch this. Like I said to Trevor, you may still be able to lift some, but you had better be darn good at it. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> And if you are, then more power to ya.

And another thing about lifting guys and gals: if you are so darn concerned that your car is going to run under the index for some reason like maybe changing weather or track conditions, nobody is stopping you from tuning your car or adding weight (filling up the gas tank) to slow your car down so it can't break out. Only cheaters that can run under their index will need to lift. Therefore lifters are cheaters, and if caught, will be sent to the next quicker index class to race much quicker cars.
You get several qualifying runs to dial in your car for the index. As the weather and track changes, tune your car or add weight to compensate. Why is this so hard?

Also Bob, you ARE a professional, you have a trailor. <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>Well Bob, with my indexing system, there would be no minimum weights needed. Just run your index.

HOWEVER, to insure that these are daily driven street cars, you must have working A/C, powersteering, and ABS. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> You know, all the working systems your car came with stock. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why is A/C, P/S such an emotional issue? Back when the LT1 cars were around, up until late 1995 Model Year you could get C61 (A/C delete) if you checked or did not check the right boxes. I use my power windows all the time when I drive my car and love the T-tops which make me NEVER use my A/C. Just me talking, I would never have a car with roll up windows, but here in Michigan, I don't miss the A/C at all.

P/S is not needed for those of us running around on skinnies all time. Heck, I've been thinking about selling my 17x9's as I never use them.

There are many daily drivers of all kinds of cars w/o A/C, P/S, and ABS (which I have). I think my TP4400 stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic would cause me a lot more concern than the other stuff, yet, it doesn't bother some. If they choose to have a TP4400, TPBillion or whatever in their daily driver, go for it.

If we are going to get that restrictive, just put a minimum number of miles driven per day / week / month, whatever, and rule out us guys who don't have them as daily transportation. Drives around the venue can be worked around...I'd just bump up my commanded idle speed to keep-a-charging and cooling.

Either get VERY specific on EXACTLY what can be done, or set some general rules and let people get creative, but ethically within the rules.

Guys like Bob2of3 and I wanted to go to the NFRA event, but could not make it this year for various reasons. I commend those who put it together, but we are coming there to meet, have fun, and race. No offense, but the prize money won't cover major breakage or a lot of expenses.

We are attracted by folks that are as crazy about this stuff as we are. That's why we race and stay up too darn late on boards like this.

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>The professional racer types can race the 'outlaw' bolt-on 11.49 and quicker class. For that class only, maybe we can allow them to not have working A/C, power steering, or ABS.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

RUKWIKR, did you see this ^. I posted that earlier.

Generally the people who take these things off their car don't drive them daily and are a little more serious about racing than the rest of us in the bolt-on class. However, if most of the people in the 'bolt-on' class are fine with removing that stuff for all index classes, then it is fine with me.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

If this does happen where will it be ? At one track or many different tracks? Not very familiar with NFRA. Any info would be appreciated.

Marty <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by Marty:
<strong>If this does happen where will it be ? At one track or many different tracks? Not very familiar with NFRA. Any info would be appreciated.

Marty <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Marty, check out www.NFRAracing.com

 

That helped out a lot!!!

Thanks

Marty <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Why is this so hard?<hr></blockquote>

It's not hard to understand...I just think you're a bit presumptious on what people will and won't do in order to win a race which is similar to the 'B' word type of racing. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> Again, not knocking it at all.

Also, if you want to have a true bolt-on class, and you wish to keep out the really serious racers, here are some more ideas...

1) Give the winner a nice Trophy vice a payout. Those more serious racers (some of which that will be much closer to the 'edge' of the rules) will be much less likely to compete, opening the field up to your average daily driver.

2) Make everybody run on REAL radials. Not DR's, not ET Streets - real radials (GSC's, Firehawks, Dunlaps, whatever). That will help the 'little guy', and make breakage much, much less likely. The racing would be more exciting, because damn near anybody can screw up and allow a less powerful car to win.

It also helps take away some of the advantage that the A4's have. Big converters and hard tires don't mix too well. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

3) Bob2of3 won't like this, but in keeping with the intent of the class (letting the less-serious folks race heads-up), mandate A/C, P/S, bumper supports, etc, etc. More normal folks don't pull these things out (no offense buddy...I can sure sympathize with your position. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> ).

4) Have a weight minimum. Not sure what would be a good minimum....perhaps 3400 or 3500 lbs with driver, which is what most normal 'bolt-on' cars with all their seats and such weigh.

5) Allow most exhaust combo's, but make everybody run through the mufflers (closed cutouts).

6) Do not allow weight boxes, rear-mounted batteries, or any other weight adders to the rear of the car. In this way, 'stripper' cars couldn't simpy add 200-300 lbs to the rear, thus giving them a potential big traction advantage. It's easy for them to put their seats and such back in to make up some of that weight.

7) Require folks to run all 4 seats.

8) Require the interior to be completely carpeted.

8) Require that all the lights work.

9) Require a T56 or whatever the automatic that comes in the car is called (ie....no 3 speed Auto's or 4 speed sticks).

10) To avoid teardowns, here is some easy stuff to check. You probably should only have to check the quickest 4 cars or so (after qualifying), but everybody should be prepared for this:

a. Vacuum check. Find the average vacuum that an F-body pulls at idle (or a certain rpm....say....800 or 1000), subtract 1 inch from that, and make that the minimum. This is a super-easy check, and only requires that the driver have a vacuum access available (again, very easy).

b. Have a max mass-air meter and/or TB size and check those. Easy restriction, and easy to verify.

c. Require and check for a working air filter.

d. Checking the exhaust is a snap.

e. Ditto the tranny type.

f. P&G to check cubic inches. It only requires the driver to remove a single spark plug and 2 rocker arms. Though this is a VERY common practice in Mustang classes of this sort, I wouldn't do this unless someone is really dominating.

Even with all that, in the end, if somebody comes out and runs 118 mph on radials at 3500 lbs and a 1500 ft DA, then something's up, and that person is going to have to be checked.

Bob

 

wow, if Bob C runs the class, I'll get to race... <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by Bob Cosby:
<strong>It's not hard to understand...I just think you're a bit presumptious on what people will and won't do in order to win a race which is similar to the 'B' word type of racing. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> Again, not knocking it at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your entire post was excellent. You act like you've done this before. <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> Your rules will definitely give the majority of the bolt-on guys a chance to race AND win. While the class would limit me, should I enter, it will definitely level the playing field for the majority of the people in that class. It certainly won't pull me out of brackets with my cheating antics <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> , but it will get a LOT of guys out of the stands! The overwhelming majority of late-model f-body owners have simple bolt-ons, and if they have a class specifically targeted at them that they feel they can truly compete in, then the turnout should be AWESOME.
To get some guys out of the traditional brackets, a few classes where everyone has the same dial-in might help. Wait, I think those are the "heads-up index" classes. <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0">

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>

 

Very nice post Bob, I was tiring of hearing all the whining and chewing about lifting. Looks like Bob is more concerned with the masses instead of just himself.

Like I said, excellent ideas from someone who's been there, done that!! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />

 

Bob C,

Good ideas, but I have a real safety issue with forcing 11 second cars to run on street radials. IMO this is unsafe. Good tires are your first piece of safety equipment IMO.

Secondly, if we run the type of rules you are suggesting, then some of the faster cars like Bob2of3's old car, RUQWIKR, Black Sunshine, and others probably won't be able to race.

The index classes with fewer car rules allows for wider participation because everyone can 'run what they brung' without having to return it back to stock just to race. It also requires less policing. The more rules you have on the car, the more you have to build your car around those class rules rather than to what you personally want to drive on the street AND the more policing required by the NFRA.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by LT1FUN:
<strong>Very nice post Bob, I was tiring of hearing all the whining and chewing about lifting. Looks like Bob is more concerned with the masses instead of just himself.

Like I said, excellent ideas from someone who's been there, done that!! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Absolutely agree, it'd be cool to have groups of us racing who are more-mainline and then the more hardcores like my buddy Bob2of3 and me. Unless there is some huge $ for the winner, we are just getting together to play and for common interests. Just don't make it too restrictive to where the hardcore guys are excluded...just put them in the same cage with each other and let them fight it out.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>
It certainly won't pull me out of brackets with my cheating antics <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> , but it will get a LOT of guys out of the stands!

To get some guys out of the traditional brackets, a few classes where everyone has the same dial-in might help. Wait, I think those are the "heads-up index" classes. <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0">

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Trevor, the idea behind by indexes was simply to allow everyone to 'run what they brung'. No need to build a car to class rules, just bring your street car. I think this will allow for maximum participation. The indexes also level the playing field so that a high degree of policing is not required by the NFRA.

The 'no lifting' rule is to keep everyone honest about the index they enter, and to make for exciting heads up racing all the way down the track. Who wants to see two racers in a heads-up race outbrake each other for the win? Do you?
IMO that would be poor racing for the competitors and spectators alike.

Call me crazy, but I do not like the idea of someone taking an 11.80 car and breaking their way to a 12.02 for a win in the 12.00 index. This is what I want to avoid. Granted if you are good at lifting you could shave off a few hundreths, and that is fine, but what I don't want to see is people shaving off tenths.

Sorry for offending you and Kristi with my lifting comments. I just don't want this to turn into just another bracket race. I think, if done correctly, heads-up index racing won't turn into just another bracket race.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>